SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Been a while since I've been here. I needed to take a break for sure. I'm still with my WH, for...reasons.

Anyway, this just happened the other day and I wanted to get some other perspectives from both Waywards and Betrayed.

My WH has a female friend at work. I have asked that he not give out his number to any woman whom I do not know and am not friends with. I felt that he was actively trying to push us to be friends and I can guess why . I felt really pressured and not ready for him to have a female friend at all so I asked him not to talk about her/bring her up as just hearing her name triggered me. He complied. I already knew that he did not hold the same boundaries that I do, and that he thought some of things I asked him not to talk about/do were "no big deal".

The other day he casually mentioned that this woman was getting a divorce (and that he wasn't supposed to tell anyone because she had asked him to keep it secret), that her husband was jealous, thought she was cheating, didn't like her going out all the time etc. And, that she was pretty sure he was cheating on her because, well, why not I guess, since she is cheating too. My heart broke into pieces again because in my opinion, he should not know such intimate details about their marriage.

I told him I was hurt to hear this because I thought it was inappropriate conversations going on between them. His initial reaction was to ask what exactly was inappropriate about it. Of course that made my heart sink because how does he think this is OK? I also told him that it made me wonder what WH was sharing with her about us, and how much intimate knowledge might she have about him, me, our relationship etc.

His next response was to say that he didn't like that I immediatly thought he was guilty. That I had already assumed he was guilty of something. I asked what it was that I thought he was guilty of, and he said that I accused him of telling her intimate things about us and our relationship. I told him I hadn't done that, that his words had made me wonder IF WH was also oversharing. Because I have made it clear that I need him to have full, walls up, impenitrable boundaries with other women.

He eventually did validate my feelings. That he heard me and understood why I felt the way I did. He said he understood what I wanted. I responded with "But you don't agree with it.". He didn't really answer that, instead he told me that from what he understood, I merely wanted him to know how I felt and to hear it. Which told me that yeah, he doesn't agree with my assessment that he's been haveing inappropriate conversations with another woman. Even if it's just listening to her complain about her husband, which, lets face it, I'm sure is more than that. I did tell him that I didn't appreciate that another woman was discussing her issues in her relationship with my husband and that I expect my husband to put a stop to it. That he needs to tell her she should have those conversations with a female friend, and that it made him uncomfortable. He said he didn't think he would ever be able to tell anyone to stop talking about something. So...

Also, I received no reasurance, nor did I get any comfort. In fact, I initiated a hug minutes later because I needed one.

So, is it too much to ask to have strong boundaries? And is this kind of conversation OK? I feel like if there was no history of infidelity or shit boundaries with other women, it might be, but as it is, I feel like it is another betrayal. Like he is not respecting me and protecting our relationship. That because he doesn't want to feel uncomfortable (telling this woman to stop sharing so much), or hurt HER feelings, he's not going to enforce those boundaries at all.

What's the verdict? Am I off the rails? Honestly, I knew that he wouldn't change his behaviour, I even said so when I started talking to him. I know he isn't going to enforce boundaries, because they aren't his, if it was left up to him, there wouldn't be any at all. It's a real issue, and I don't really know how he expects me to trust him when this is the case.

I'm going to ask him to go the the therapist with me next week and maybe hearing it from her will shake something loose, but I'm wondering if I just need to focus on my own happiness without him because he still manages to hurt me with things that he should have already mastered.

If infidelity weren't part of your relationship, then he might be able to have female friends. It sounds like they are oversharing. Would he read Not Just Friends? Even if he doesn't read the whole book, maybe the chapter on Windows & Walls. It discusses how there are some things that need to stay just between the two of you.

Sorry he's ignoring your request.

leafields

Good idea, I do have that book. I'll pose the question to him and see if he's willing. Hopefully it will help him understand why it's extremely upsetting for me. And why it's a problem even if he's not the one oversharing. He's allowing it and that opens a door for more.

"see if he’s willing"

No.

Put your foot down.

If you can, it might be a good exercise to go through the book on a chapter basis. I understand there are audio versions, so you can pick the format that works for you.

ETA: You're not being over dramatic. You're trying to establish that you're safe. Our brains don't differentiate between being chased by a lion and betrayal trauma. Trauma is trauma. Your fight, flight, freeze mode is activated and you're trying to make sure you're safe (not going to be eaten by a lion) or not (Run, Forrest, run!)

[This message edited by leafields at 5:18 AM, Friday, February 7th]

I was wrong, I don't have the book so now I have to go buy it. I think I borrowed it from the library when I read it. Thank you for validating these feelings. I am so uncomfortable with him having a female friend. Even if it's only at work.

I told my XWH the same thing - no female friends unless I approve. In the early days, I even said that he couldn't be by himself with another female unless it was specific people that I named. He couldn't stick to that and ended up doing something sexual with another female, and that's why we're D.

Ugh. No you are not being dramatic. He does not get it. The only positive is he didn’t try to hide the friendship from you, but is tone deaf at how bad this looks for them both.

My gut reaction is wtf with this woman. Why isn’t she whining to her girlfriends instead of your husband? This would cause me to go up a defcon level. Does she know about your relationship issues? The conversation you had with him - where he deflected your concerns with how you are treating him like he is guilty? I heard that same crap, I just didn’t hear it for what it really was at the time - a deflection from being dangerously close to being caught. I hope your situation is different, I hope they are just friends, and if so, maybe it’s time you met her……

And the part where you were upset, he got mad and then you had to get the hug you needed without it being offered? That’s how it goes in my world. It’s very frustrating having a partner who shuts down during conflict. It’s hard to tell the emotional dysfunction from the relationship betrayal sometimes. I wish you clarity figuring out what you are dealing with here. I echo the suggestion that you put your foot down, take a stand now or this will continue to be hurt. Take care of yourself.

leafields

I certainly hope this is not the case, but one never knows until one knows. Do I believe that he is cheating again, no, not really, but I do believe that the door is open and they are both jumping in and out of it. A dangerous place to be.

whatisloveanyway

From what WH says about her she is an open book and an oversharer. I can attest to that. He gave her my # and we were texting semi regularly. I know more about her life than I should at this point. I have not texted her since telling my WH that I didn't want to get to know her right now and that I didn't want to hear about her. I am feeling that that was a mistake because I think he was probably relieved that he didn't have to tell me about their conversations anymore and walk that tightrope. IDK, I may be overthinking.

She does not know about the history of infidelity. I'm sure that isn't something he wants to share. Right now, apparently, many of the women at his job think he's great because he's one of the few men who doesn't try and hit on them . Of course he said that it made him feel guilty because of his past. Then again, this is just what I hear from him. I don't really know what they talk about or how he acts at work. He works at a correctional facility so it isn't like I can show up and see what the vibe is. But, I can make the attempt to meet her, preferably with them together so I can get a sense of their vibe with each other. I don't really want to though. I am feeling very fragile right now. So maybe after a few more therapy sessions to bolster my foundation.

I think you know this: don't issue an ultimatum unless you're willing to impose the sanction. It looks like you still choose to stay married, so ... no ultimatum. But your H may get something out of NJF.

*****

IDK ... he broke his agreement not to mention this woman. That IS dramatic.

I'd wonder if this woman is trying to entice your H into an A by revealing M details. Maybe yes, maybe no, but the question is there. I hope she's using your H only as a sounding board.

Would you be better off if you allowed him to talk about his relationships with co-workers?

*****

I agree that men and women can be friends but probably not after an A. My one caveat is that apparently straight people can find some bi-sexuality inside them if the wrong person comes along.

I think you've hit a nail on the head: it would be great if your H developed strong boundaries.

*****

It's good to hear from you fornlau.

sisoon

IDK ... he broke his agreement not to mention this woman. That IS dramatic.

Jesus, I didn't even consider this! I was just so shocked by the information he was dumping on me to realize that yes, he broke the agreement we had made. It would be one thing if he'd asked if it would be OK to say something because he wanted to share info. But he didn't, he just blurted it out like he was sharing a juicy bit of gossip, which I guess it was.

I'll be going to the book store today to pick up a copy of the book.

Obviously I don't know what her intentions are. I do know that there was an incident at work with another male coworker who hit on her and tried to have an A with her. And yes, she talked about that with my WH as well. Though, she told me the details and even sent me screen shots of the texts this guy sent her. I have never met this woman face to face mind you. So, yeah, she does seem to be an oversharer for sure. Still, I expect my WH to uphold boundaries, which it seems he is unwilling to do. It seems like for him, if he isn't having sex or talking about sex, then everything else is OK.

He doesn't seem to view these conversations as opening a door to more. I do hope the book will help, but we'll see.

I am considering hearing about the coworker again, simply because I feel like I need to know what they are talking about. And apparently I need to tell my WH what is and what isn't inappropriate sharing. You'd think he knew by now. Complaining or sharing issues in a marriage with someone of the opposite sex is a HUGE nono!

As always, I appreciate your words. And I thank you for the validation.

He eventually did validate my feelings. That he heard me and understood why I felt the way I did. He said he understood what I wanted. I responded with "But you don't agree with it.". He didn't really answer that, instead he told me that from what he understood, I merely wanted him to know how I felt and to hear it.

Here's the way out: Set a firm, clear boundary that you will not tolerate him conversing about relationships, good or bad, with any other woman, especially a coworker. He doesn't have to like it or agree that it's reasonable, he just has to abide by the boundary if he wants to remain married to you.

We had a similar issue about six weeks after we began R/NC. My H wanted to return to a normal cordial coworker relationship with the AP. He didn't want to have to walk away if she approached a group of people talking in the break room. He didn't want to have to walk by her in the hallway without a nod or a "good morning" because it made him uncomfortable. Her birthday was approaching and he was nervous about whether or not to wish her a happy birthday if he ran into her. It felt rude to him to ignore her on her birthday. Obviously, I was NOT having any of that, and we argued about it for days before our MC appointment. Our MC laid it bare for him: You don't have to agree with SS's logic behind a boundary, but if you want to remain married to her, you have to abide by the boundary.

My point there is that you should set down the desire to have him cosign the logic of your boundary and have faith that you're the best person to decide what's best for you. What you will tolerate and what you will not. And then he gets to choose whether to respect the boundary or not. Everyone gets to make their own choices for themselves.

I did tell him that I didn't appreciate that another woman was discussing her issues in her relationship with my husband and that I expect my husband to put a stop to it. That he needs to tell her she should have those conversations with a female friend, and that it made him uncomfortable. He said he didn't think he would ever be able to tell anyone to stop talking about something.

I'd workshop with him on some ideas for responses that do work for him. If he's unwilling to be direct, then he'd better perfect his evasion tactics. Every time the topic starts to come up, he can make an excuse to get away. Time to refill the coffee. Sorry, conference call in five minutes. Explosive diarrhea. Oh look! A squirrel! Whatever he needs to do to NOT get drawn into inappropriate conversations. You don't care how he shuts it down, as long as he does shut it down.

SacredSoul33

My point there is that you should set down the desire to have him cosign the logic of your boundary and have faith that you're the best person to decide what's best for you. What you will tolerate and what you will not. And then he gets to choose whether to respect the boundary or not. Everyone gets to make their own choices for themselves.

This is something I can work with. At least in my head, not sure how he'll feel about it. It seems that sometimes I have to give a disertation as to why I feel the way I feel or need something I need. He has to understand the logic behind it. Though I don't understand how he doesn't get the logic behind me not wanting him to discuss his (or the other person's) relationship issues. Again, if there was no infidelity history, this would be different, boundaries wouldn't need to be as tight. But there should always be boundaries!

Workshopping ways to get out of these kinds of conversations seems like a good idea too. There are times when I feel that he places more importance on his comfort, and not wanting to hurt this other woman, over my well being, over my comfort. There is no way for him to leave however, they don't spend much time together, and when they do it's because they are walking the cell block and up and down the stairwell for the hourly check. It takes about 5 min.s and that's when they talk. I'm sure there are other options to steer a conversation away without being outright rude. Although I feel that this woman will eventually need to be told not to bring up these subjects!

Thank you for the advice. I've been feeling really low these past few days. I even went out to do some retail therapy yesterday because I couldn't sit still. thankfully I didn't break the bank, still. I'm unsure how to cope right now. And I'm desperately trying not to spiral. I don't know why this is hitting me so hard!

You and your husband have to make you and your feelings of saftey a priority in order for a marriage to work, right? This is because HE has been unfaithful in the past (fact).
You have expressed a great deal of discomfort over his relationship with a female coworker and have told WS of your feelings (fact). WS has chosen to disregard your feelings of not being safe and place HIS priority on the comfort and saftey of his female coworker by continuing to have inappropriate very personal converaations (fact). The coworker is soon to be divorced and is in a fragile state herself, likely seeking emotional support during a VERY difficult emotional Rollercoaster.

If you go to her and inform her of your weak marriage bond, she could see this as an opening for her to relieve HER issues of needing to feel valued, and she could Amp up efforts to rein in your WS. She knows she is creating an intimate space with your husband by confiding in him. She is ripe for someone to "make her feel better" and he is right there with her every day, doing just that.

The real person controlling the relationship dynamic is your WS and it is his responsibility to cease all inappropriate conversations immediately, because YOU his wife asked this of him in order to build and repair your marriage due to his infidelity. Period.

His not being "willing" to see your point is not something that should stop him from meeting your need. He is invalidating your experience.

You are the only one in control of what you feel and respond with. So, what are you able to stand strong on with a boundary?

Could you say, "I cannot tolerate anymore lying or secrets about relationships with any women, including coworkers. It is creating more hurt and mistrust and damaging any potential for healing our relationship. I need you to stop participating in any conversations that are not specifically work related with any female. I ask that you please work with your therapist to find ways to redirect conversations that are not work related, so you can be comfortable in your work environment and still honor the needs I expressed to you so we can continue to rebuild trust. If these conversations continue I will need to pull back from our relationship until you can be honest. I will either limit contact with you or ask you to move out of the house for a while. But, in some way I will need to have more distance from you if you continue to engage in inappropriate conversations and lie to me about it." (taken from Michelle Maye book The Betrayal Bind)

Her book explains that while you may not want to set a boundary that makes you seperate completely, you can make it clear using the above statement that you will withdrawal and who knows what will come after that...

Sending you strength to figure out your next conversation. I do hope it will click for him one day! It does "click" and seeing it happen IS SO cool!! Don't give up! Just stay strong and hold your ground for what you need.

12many24give

Thank you so much for your input. I appreciate the support, something I feel I sorely am lacking in. I have no real support here. I can talk to my mom, but she is very into the advice of "Treat him like a King"

I will be adding that book to my list to buy today. It sounds like a good resource. I guess I still have a lot of work to do on my self-esteem, and standing up for myself. I know I'm not being unreasonable, and I should expect that my H puts me ahead of any other woman or her feelings. I didn't consider that this woman is now in a vulnerable state. You're right, he really has to be careful here. She might just want some ego kibbles because of crumbling of her relationship, but we all know what that can easily lead to.

This is something else I can bring up and discuss with him. And how he will deal with it if she starts to push for his validation of her etc. I don't know if WH is strong enough not to do something stupid.

12many24give had a lot of good input. I think you should keep a close eye on this. He might already be starting to slide down the slippery slope. Lots of SI people mention in their initial posts that their WS would casually bring up the AP in conversation and they either didn't think anything of it, or it raised their hackles, but they glossed over it. Your hackles are up. Honor thy gut.

It seems that sometimes I have to give a disertation as to why I feel the way I feel or need something I need.

I relate so hard to this. It used to be that it wasn't enough that he would agree to comply. I wanted him to really be on the same page and express agreement with my reasoning, and I wouldn't let up until he did. It was exhausting for both of us. MC helped us with this, too. He flat out told H that since he was the one who had screwed up, he needed to do what I asked without pushback in order to restore trust. He didn't have to like it, he just had to do it.

For me, overexplaining is an insecurity thing and an ADHD thing. Also, it felt like if he just went along with my boundary but he didn't have a solid underlying feeling or understanding about why it's important, was he going to be able to react correctly on the fly? For a lot of things that he did because I asked, the understanding about the importance came later.

There are times when I feel that he places more importance on his comfort, and not wanting to hurt this other woman, over my well being, over my comfort.

That was exactly what MC said to H when we were fighting about H wanting to treat the OW like his other coworkers. He was placing more importance on not feeling awkward or not hurting AP's feelings than he was on gaining back my trust and helping me feel safe. He basically got the equivalent of a Cher slap and a "SNAP OUT OF IT!" from MC. "Being nice to the AP is being cruel to SS33. You can't have it both ways."

There is no way for him to leave however, they don't spend much time together, and when they do it's because they are walking the cell block and up and down the stairwell for the hourly check. It takes about 5 min.s and that's when they talk. I'm sure there are other options to steer a conversation away without being outright rude. Although I feel that this woman will eventually need to be told not to bring up these subjects!

Maybe suggest that he lead the conversation with fluffy topics, like sports or the weather or whatever's trending on TikTok? If he deflects enough, she should get the picture unless she's completely dense. Maybe practice that, and also changing the subject?

H: Who do you think will win the Super Bowl?

COW: I think the Chiefs, but my dumb husband likes the Eagles.

H: I'm rooting for the Eagles. Blah blah blah more football talk. Ignore all references to her H.

Or...

COW: I can't stand my H. Guess what he did today?

H: Psh, I'd rather not. *acts distracted by work* Who do you like for the Super Bowl? I'm thinking the Chiefs are gonna make some history.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:12 PM, Friday, February 7th]

Yes, you ARE "off the rails,"...for staying when he doesn't want to change and his actions keep showing you who and what he really is.
My advice, FWIW, if you choose to stay, accept that this is who he is. Quit wasting your breath, because all he is going to do when you keep explaining why something is wrong, is gaslight you. He KNOWS. I promise, he knows exactly what he is doing. Not only that,he seems to get some perverse pleasure in further gaslightjng you by telling you about his inappropriate conversations to get a reaction out of you so he can wash, rinse, and repeat a cycle of more gaslighting.
Detach and stop loving somebody who doesn't understand what love is. You cannot see the forest for the trees. If you decide tonstill stay and don't detach, you're going to let him drive you crazy and drain your soul too.
No judgment for why you choose to stay. Im sure you have good reason(s). But you're doing yourself harm by remaining attached and in hopium that he'll be a healthy partner.

I work with a lot of men.

There is one man that is friendly, but never even remotely flirty. He is in a long term relationship. One day we were talking about something regarding our employer and I pulled something up online on my phone related to what we were talking about and told him I’d send him the link if he gave me his phone number. I didn’t mean anything suspicious with that, I and several of my male coworkers, even those that are married or in serious relationships, have each other’s phone numbers and when we do contact each other, it is never anything inappropriate. But this man said that day, nah, just let me take a picture of the screen on your phone with the information. I said okay, and told him to go to the webpage on the top of the picture to find more information about what we were talking about.

Obviously, him giving any female coworker his phone number, even to legitimately get information regarding our job and for no other reason, is a hard boundary for him. I don’t know if it’s because he’s had issues in his relationship or if that’s just the kind of person he is. I don’t know anything about his relationship, except that he’s been with his partner for several years. It was kind of awkward in that moment, but I respected him for that. I’m not "on the prowl" at my job, I’m not flirty, and most of my coworkers know that I’m in a relationship myself, so I just thought at the time, that for whatever reason, he wasn’t trying to have any problems with his partner, about a female coworker texting him anything. And I respected him for that.

So it is entirely possible for people to have strict boundaries with outsiders, to protect their relationship, even if it causes awkward moments. If that person respects and values the relationship or marriage, especially if they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy, that should matter more than anything an outsider might think or feel about how that person deals with them.

Still living is spot on! Nailed it!

Quit wasting your breath, because all he is going to do when you keep explaining why something is wrong, is gaslight you. He KNOWS. I promise, he knows exactly what he is doing. Not only that,he seems to get some perverse pleasure in further gaslightjng you by telling you about his inappropriate conversations to get a reaction out of you so he can wash, rinse, and repeat a cycle of more gaslighting.

He knows he crossed the line. He’s playing stupid to shut you up.

Hi, I have to admit I haven't read all of the member responses to your original post.

My WH had an A with a co-worker.

After D-Day, there was no compromising boundaries. No personal discussions with female co-workers, no one on one meetings with a female co-worker, no socializing on the job when female co-workers were involved (that's how his A started).

At that time I was given full access to his work emails/voicemails/phone, etc.

He stuck to his boundaries like glue.

As a matter of fact, an email came through from a female co-worker asking him if he would help her update her resume, if I recall she was going to apply to a similar job within the company as my WH, he didn't respond. Crickets.

Your WH stepped way over the line, I'd be livid. He knew the conversations were inappropriate, he should have nipped them in the bud immediately. The question is how many times did they chit chat to the point where she was comfortable revealing her personal issues to him.

Hopefully reading Not Just Friends might slap him out of his so-called ignorance.