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Why is deciding to leave so hard? I’ve still been going to marriage counseling and as of this last Monday, I was still going to have him do the disclosure and lie detector. My H had written a rough draft disclosure and I had read it. I told him that I wanted him to do it with his counselor and I gave him a list of questions to also cover. These questions were worded so that there would be no confusion with the lie detector. Well, his counselor told him it was absolutely too much and that he’d already admitted cheating and blah blah blah. That me wanting to know more and more is overboard and obsessive.
We then had our marriage counseling appointment. She pretty much told me the same, but in a nicer way. Not even one of the questions is new. They are all the normal questions I’ve had. I had them grouped into 5 groups bc that’s all the questions that the lie detector guy will ask. These are questions that I never got answered and weren’t mentioned on the disclosure.
So needless to say….I felt…defeated. She proceeded to tell me this is being obsessive and it’s not good for me. I told her if he’d answered the damn questions in the beginning then it wouldn’t be considered obsessive!
I can only describe the feelings as if I went into the doctors office with a broken arm and wanted an x-ray. The doc tells me it’s not broken and that he doesn’t think I need an X -ray. He sends me home bc that’s what he thinks I need. Doesn’t listen to what I want or know will help. So I get sent home, still in pain and still a broken arm. Now it’s just going to heal wrong and take a lot longer and hurt a lot worse.
I know that might sound crazy, but the best way I could explain how hopeless I felt. I just cried. And this should have been a major warning for my H, but I told him he didn’t have to take the lie detector test. That i changed my mind and not to worry with it.
I asked if there was ANYTHING he’d add to the disclosure? Mind u, I had asked the question about him looking at stuff. He said there wasn’t anything to add. Lol

I’m going to wait until after Christmas and then I’m going to find an attorney and talk to them.

U know….if he would have just admitted that he still looks at stuff….but no. He continues to lie.
My marriage counselor knows he’s still looking at stuff bc I’d managed to tell her while he went to the bathroom once.
Her theory is that it’s an addiction and like with all addictions….they lie to cover it.
I get it…..I honestly do. But I just can’t stay in a marriage where I know he’s lying and always will. And he hasn’t told me bc he doesn’t WANT to stop. He enjoys it and is going to keep on. If he wanted to stop and really meant it….he’d tell me he slipped up and we would deal and get through his addiction together. But he doesn’t tell or share bc he wants to keep doing it.
How can I leave my best friend for the last 30 years? Tell me I can do this.

You CAN do this but it’s hard b/c no one wants to be the person who instigates a D.

But you cannot love with a liar either.

Your counselors have done you a disservice too. Whatever you need to know, you need to know. While they can provide their opinion, your healing is your decision too. Unfortunately your cheating spouse found professionals who backed him up on "not answering" questions.

I’m Sorry you are being forced into this situation of having to make the decision to D. But you made it clear you cannot accept your feelings of frustration over the decisions your H makes.

Oh I feel your pain. My wife is a huge rugsweeper and has been reluctant to address the needs I have set forth. I asked for a timeline. I have asked that she look into the why's of her cheating, and I've asked her to reassure me that she is a safe partner by describing and showing me what she is doing to become a safer partner. Nothing on all three fronts. I fear this is the end, my heart doesn't want it to end but my head is now in control. I need to visit an attorney to see how D would look, sadly I don't think it will look great and I am depressed about having to go into debt and having to go back to 7 days a week working to get back on my feet. But I just can't go on like this much longer. Barely sleep, feel unappreciated, basically unlovable and not worth the effort for her. I wish I had an answer for you. You are right, it is a very damn difficult decision to pull the trigger.

If his IC told him that,the IC needs to be fired. Yours too.

Your broken arm analogy is spot on. You will never heal like this.

This is a warning to all new BS. Interview potential ICs. Find out how they deal with infidelity. Because having your unremorseful WS go to am IC that doesn't insist on full transparency, and honesty,and hold the ws fully accountable for their actions, will do so much more harm than good.

IhL, unfortunately, this is all you will ever get from him. He will forever claim a "professional " told him you don't have the right to the truth,and he doesn't have to answer questions.

He doesn't love you. Love is action. He hasn't loved you for a very long time. You deserve so much better.

I just wanted to let you know that I am so angry for you in this situation. I mentioned this thread in mine, hope you don’t mind. But this is so immensely awful, who do they think they are to treat you like a child and say your need for truth is wrong. You don’t have to take that, no matter what a counselor says. There is some serious nonsense peddled out there, and I’m so mad for you that you got two morons (three counting your WH) lined up against you. But this isn’t a question for democracy. This stuff can haunt you for life. Don’t let it. Stand up for your needs here. You are worth it.

IHL,

This is sooooo disappointing. I’m so sorry you are being "ganged up on" and your needs are being dismissed. All the while the cheater is getting empowered and validated (how he must love THAT).

You need to know what you need to know. Your WH, his IC, your IC or your MC don’t get to decide. You do! You get to decide how you want it formatted and how detailed (or not). Stick to your guns.

I made the mistake of going into MC right after D-Day (less than 30 days). Biggest mistake I could have made. The MC "mollycoddled" my WW and made ME feel like the asshole over how upsetting all this was for my WW! My WW had been lying constantly since D-Day 1 and we had literally just had a 3 day D-Day 2 the 3 days before our first session. When I expressed I needed to know the whole story (my WW still actively lying at this point), the MC says to me "you have to accept the information she has provided you is all you will get. If you can’t, maybe YOU need IC".

I was furious. I told them both "if this is all the information I am getting I don’t need any further counseling of any kind. I am going to divorce her lying, cheating ass". The MC then started stammering and backpedaling and offered up an FTD with polygraph. Imagine that….

This MC was also one of only 2 LMFTs in a city of over 1MM and Gottman trained. I thought I was getting "the best". Far from it….

Keep to your guns and get what you need to recover or take appropriate actions.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 8:39 PM, Thursday, November 9th]

Thank u all🩵
As far as what his personal counselor said….I just have to go by what H tells me. And the thing that’s frustrating is that our counselors don’t know why I ask certain things. I know my H so the disclosure my H did by himself tells details that the counselors think is a no no, but my wanting to know was mainly for the lying part. I know what my H likes to do and so forth, so if he says he didn’t do this or this….I’d know he was definitely lying. So when it’s mentioned he did this or that….they say it’s too much detail and that I’m being obsessive.
I feel like telling them they haven’t known us for the past 30 years and I ask things for a reason.

And what both counselors said…when is this going to end and u just move forward?
I swear I wanted to scream. IF ID GOTTEN ALL THIS IN THE FREAKING BEGINNING THEN IT WOULDN’T SEEM AS IF IM OBSESSIVE AND DRAGGING IT OUT!!!!!!
He trickled feed me truths for over a year! I’ve been waiting on that lie detector bc that’s the closest to the truth I’m going to get so you’re damn right it’s going to be all the questions I had, grouped.
Who the hell are they to tell me what info I need or not?? And I could see the look on my H face like….see..I told u all this was ridiculous.
Well, he won’t be thinking that at the first of the year!
And to think….I was actually starting to believe him some and then I find out he’s still looking and laying about it! How many times am I going to be a dumbass?! I’ve lost count over the years. Hell, I can’t count that high!

Does it always feel like u are the one giving up on the marriage? I just don’t understand why I feel soooooo awful. I should be long gone years ago. It just breaks my heart. Sigh

And what both counselors said…when is this going to end and u just move forward?

This question would be rightfully aimed at the wayward, saying "when is this going to end and u actually become truthful and forthcoming?" How the hell do MC’s out there think that this is on the BP and we should accept lies and trauma to be the foundation of a future? It’s patently absurd with the least amount of thought. So infuriating. I’m so sorry, IHL.

I am so sorry these counselors failed you. I would have stood up in the office told them I disagreed and that would be the end of those counselors.

It is a very hard decision to D. It took me a long time to be confident that was the direction I was taking even though it had been on my mind for years past D-Day. When you know you are done you are done. If you know there is no coming back from this, go forward with the decision to leave. I was married 18 years and together with xWS 25 years at the time I left. I would start detaching from him and implement the 180 since you know he will not do the things it takes to help you (he just wants his idea that you are being obsessive and overboard confirmed by counselors ).

Come check out the S/D threads we will help you get through it. I can tell you one thing. You will not feel obsessive nor care anymore what your WS thinks when you decide to move on. Life is really good on the other side. It's peaceful and I have no chaos or mind ruminating about what my xWS is doing. Sometimes being away from the perpetrator is the answer all along.

Imachump - well, I had told my H to forget the test bc he and our marriage counselor was talking about how unreliable they are. H kept saying that if he’s nervous or his heart fluttered then it will say he’s lying. And there’s no reason to take the test bc he’s not going to admit he’s still looking at porn. So it will show he’s lying and he will come up with some excuse. Granted, if I still had my way….I’d have him take it and just see what he fails.
But is there any sense, regardless, if he’s still lying and will always lie? If he wasn’t lying now….then I’d push for the test bc it would tell me if he’s lied about any of the stuff on disclosure. But since I know he’s still lying about porn then there’s no use for the other stuff except curiosity and if I’m leaving….I’m not wasting $500.

Imachump - well, I had told my H to forget the test bc he and our marriage counselor was talking about how unreliable they are. H kept saying that if he’s nervous or his heart fluttered then it will say he’s lying. And there’s no reason to take the test bc he’s not going to admit he’s still looking at porn. So it will show he’s lying and he will come up with some excuse. Granted, if I still had my way….I’d have him take it and just see what he fails.
But is there any sense, regardless, if he’s still lying and will always lie? If he wasn’t lying now….then I’d push for the test bc it would tell me if he’s lied about any of the stuff on disclosure. But since I know he’s still lying about porn then there’s no use for the other stuff except curiosity and if I’m leaving….I’m not wasting $500.

Yeah, liars always talk about how "unreliable" they are and their nerves and so forth. Really, for me personally I was more interested in using it as a "prompt". "Memories come flooding back" amazingly (some times literally in the parking lot of the testing facility) when facing the polygraph.

80% of the information I got was between that MC session I mentioned and the polygraph. Part of the polygraph was my WW verbally going over the disclosure from memory (this took 2 hrs) to compare versions. There were some subtle differences even there. Ultimately she passed but I still have gaps due to "I can’t remember"….

Anyway, if you are moving to D and you are convinced he will still lie, save the money.

Here’s to healing!

My husband said that his counsellor wondered if I’d got stuck dwelling on something.

I replied you are there to work out why you lack integrity, honesty and were willing to take vows you clearly don’t agree with. If she believes in unmet needs theory then ask her is it’s okay for me to shag someone as you no longer meet my need for honesty and integrity.

He opted to sack her instead.

I actually think his attitude towards this unmet needs counsellor was quite important to me. In fact I think it was more important than I realised. He had previously used counselling to have smoke blown up his butt. I needed to see that he could challenge and get rid of her for being unsuitable.

Op are you due to return to counselling? I would call the counsellor out on it.

[This message edited by Abcd89 at 9:26 PM, Thursday, November 9th]

If your husband is what you call a best friend, then I’m terrified of the person you would call an enemy.

This man has been physically and emotionally abusive to you and your children. He’s brought home multiple STDs. He continues to lie to you and manipulate you.

Instead of wondering IF you can leave the marriage, then just pretend that you no longer have a choice and start planning for HOW you’re going to get out.

To use another medical analogy, imagine if you had incurable gangrene in your leg. You know you need to get the leg amputated, but the idea of losing a leg is sad and terrifying. Your entire way of life is going to drastically change. You can’t imagine getting used to prosthetic.

In this circumstance, would you keep the leg and let it kill you? Or would you go through the procedure and learn to live without it?

if he’d answered the damn questions in the beginning then it wouldn’t be considered obsessive!

A million up votes!!!

Trust what your head and heart are telling you.

What you know is what he's admitted to. What you know is what you can prove. What you know is that he's capable of these actions.

What you know is that he was okay trickle-truthing while you suffered.

What you know is that he's still lying.

So, knowing all of that, what can you live with? What do you want for your life moving forward?

It's maddening, and you asked for none of this.
I'm so sorry we are in this boat together.

Imachump - I figured my H would do the same….spill his guts right before the test. Maybe I’ll see if he’s still game. Lol. Sigh. Is it stupid to still want to know it all even if I plan on leaving???

Bluerthanblue - yes! Thank u for that! It’s perfect. Just like when I was telling myself that I can’t drive bc of epilepsy and what is my life going to be like? Stuck at home, can’t work…what am I going to do for money!? But then I told myself to shut up and that if he died I’d have to do it all by myself.
And he is my best friend. Sigh. But I know what u mean.

Imachump - I figured my H would do the same….spill his guts right before the test. Maybe I’ll see if he’s still game. Lol. Sigh. Is it stupid to still want to know it all even if I plan on leaving???

It’s not stupid. I have "accepted" my WW is who she is. Can I live with it or not? TBD. As for you, you deserve to know the "true story of your life" even if you are determined to leave. Were your suspicions correct? Can your WH "come clean" on the brink of losing everything? Or is he going to "die on this lying, delusional hill"?

Imachump - even if he came clean about everything….. I think he’d still lie about future stuff. It would just be harder to catch him bc he’d know all my tricks then.
It’s like "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". He has lied our entire life. From meeting until now. Even if a miracle happened and he stopped….I wouldn’t believe it. Too much damage done from it.

My H told me he wanted a divorce after Xmas. 😳 He said it’s highly unfair that he keeps being accused for stuff he hasn’t done. Omg…..someone hold my beer. I managed to keep my mouth shut. Well, I did start laughing. But believe me….it was a psycho laugh. He proceeded to tell me that I don’t want to work on moving forward….I just want to obsess and stay in the past. I told him that, if that’s the case, it’s bc all he does is LIE! He says he’s not lying about anything and he’s sick of my shit and me always blaming him. I just looked at him and burst into tears. Of course, all this was yelling and cussing me out. I asked how he could sit there and lie to my face? How did he have the audacity to do it? He keeps asking for proof…which I’m not going to give. The only time he comes clean is with proof. So no…..I’m not showing proof. He can come clean, but at this point….it doesn’t matter.
I did tell him that I’d show him the proof….wrapped in a box so he could open it in front of the family on Xmas.
I just wonder if he really understands that it’s his fault? I don’t think he does. He just keeps saying that he has to be transparent, but I don’t. He’s always went back to the ONLY thing that could be said that I do wrong and that’s not let him go through my phone. And I’ve told him it’s bc I keep all my "detective work" in it and that I’ve always used my notes area as a journal.
So he started in about that last night and he asked to see my Amazon account. I told him when he started telling me the truth then I would. But I didn’t care after awhile…what’s the use. So I showed him and of course there was nothing wrong in it. Then he asked to see who I text. I held the phone and showed him….I wasn’t going to have him reading them and he knows it’s bc I talk to my friends. But he was free to look at anything that wasn’t personal and he did. So then I said….so now tell me the truth and he said, of course, that he’s told me the truth. Lol. So I told him that I have a total clear conscience bc I’ve tried to work past everything and I’ve given him chance after chance and he’s made his choice all bc he’s a liar. He’d rather have his porn than me. And yes, I understand it’s an addiction, but I’ve offered and begged for him to share it with me and we’d work through it together. But he doesn’t want to stop so he doesn’t want to work and try to stop. So while I can understand (I think of him as a drug addict), I don’t have to be miserable my whole life bc of his choices and non stop lying.
It just chaps my ass to think that he actually thinks that all this is my fault and I’m the one in the wrong.

He's done absolutely no work on himself, and he isn't going to.

It IS all of your fault. You did this. You expect fidelity,transparency, and honesty. I mean,if you would just look the other way,while he fucks everything with a pulse,none of this would be happening. If you'd just pretend to be stupid, and believe his obvious lies, everything would be great. For him. If you'd just be ok with his constant need to jack off to a screen,things would be fine.

He's really a POS.

The best thing you can do when someone says they want to leave you,because you won't let them abuse you anymore? Hold that door open for them,and lock it when they leave.

Fuck that guy.

Hellfire - 🧡. The thing is….he has done "work" on himself. I have to hear it all the time. He’s going to therapy, he’s been an open book as far as letting me go through his computer and phone (at times), for marriage counseling and for sex addiction online meetings. He says he’s done everything and it’s not good enough for me. But am I the only idiot that sees that just bc u go doesn’t mean anything? He’s just going through the motions to pacify me and to be able to say…."see? I’m doing all this and it’s STILL not good enough for her." A person can go to church and then leave and go participate in an orgy. (U know what I mean).