SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's coming up on the 6 month anniversary of D-day for me, and I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and what I would like to see happen in our relationship.

A few questions are bouncing around in my head of late:

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

2. As I have said in a previous post, our couples therapist is not addressing the affair at all (going to find someone else), and my wife is doing a lot of the things recommended in the affair recovery books, not all, but a lot. I see her efforts, and appreciate them, but in the back of my mind I wonder if she is really digging deep to change, or if she is doing the superficial things in order to say she "gave it a good try".

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood. I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

For me, the first thing I had to learn was to trust myself. To know, regardless of what I chose (R or D) or what I did next, that I was sure I was going to be fine. Second part of it is, blind trust never helped anyone here in this forum -- so it's more of a trust as we go type of deal. Got to have it, always got to check on it. Most important for our R, is my wife goes out of her way to make sure I'm in the loop. That earns additional trust over time.

We can never control who we're with, we can only control our response to adversity.

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Every WS is different, but my wife owned it all. She owned her shitty choices. And some WS never figure out healthy validation, mine learned to love herself again, and that's big. She learned she didn't need validation from me or anyone else. For my wife, she betrayed herself, she lowered or ignored her own rules -- I was the collateral damage from that fall, but she at least never wanted to fall that far ever again.

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

Well, at least your wife is showing some honesty here. It's a safer path to tell you what you want to hear. If it wasn't fun, they wouldn't have kept at it. I do think feelings at some level, healthy or otherwise are invested in an A -- big risk needs a big reward. As I've read and seen, there is a mourning period, like the end of any invested relationship. For me, my wife at least felt like her choices were not worth the pain she caused me. That's a start.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

You're normal or much farther ahead of me. At six months, I was still in shock. I barely had my feet on the ground. It was about one year in, I turned to my wife and told her, love ain't going to be enough to save us.

I was done.

Then, she kept working at it anyway, and so did I. We sort of put one foot in front of the other, worked for a good day and then tried for another.

We don't ever owe this last chance, my wife really appreciated the opportunity to show her best self again, and after going through Hell, I'm a stronger, better spouse on the other side of it now too -- it just took a long time and a lot of consistent effort by both of us.

The vows, as you noted are broken. The deal is broken. The only reason to hang around is if both people want to fight for something more, something better. What's better? Here at home, we wake up and choose each other every day. Love isn't enough, but we add in care, kindness and effort that really was missing in our pre-A M. Not that marriage can as infidelity, it cannot. We just recognize how to go at this thing the way each of us needs now.

It's coming up on the 6 month anniversary of D-day for me, and I've been thinking a lot about reconciliation and what I would like to see happen in our relationship.

A few questions are bouncing around in my head of late:

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

One of the permanent losses due to the A is a sense of complete trust. "Implicit trust" "naive trust". Pick the name. You might have felt you were at 100% trust, but that is gone, and it isn't coming back. I'm not saying it would be impossible for some people here to re-establish that with a new partner, but my point of view was that my perception and belief around trust was simply wrong and had to be reworked. That would apply in R or in a new relationship. I can never trust anyone again like I did before the A. Myself included actually.

So then the new, more pragmatic version of trust, has to be built by her earning and proving she does what she says. Time and again.

I also took a wider "trust inventory". I sort of forget which book it was (What makes love last by gottman?). Anyway trust is actually still multifaceted. I trust my wife financially. I trust her to make good parenting decisions. I generally, affair aside, trusted my wife immediately after the A. So different people might have different answers. You could take the inventory and find a pattern of honesty and accountability otherwise or you find a whole pile of lies. Since she is generally honest and accountable, I was able to not exactly "compartmentalize" the affair, but understand it was coming from a place that was more generally out of character rather than the tip of a shit iceberg.

2. As I have said in a previous post, our couples therapist is not addressing the affair at all (going to find someone else), and my wife is doing a lot of the things recommended in the affair recovery books, not all, but a lot. I see her efforts, and appreciate them, but in the back of my mind I wonder if she is really digging deep to change, or if she is doing the superficial things in order to say she "gave it a good try".

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Written specific goals and a plan to achieve them were the turning point in my R (only after I had asked for D in writing).

That said, I am not certain she would never cheat again. I'm merely sufficiently satisfied that it is unlikely, that the benefits of the marriage are worth the risk of her repeating. Furthermore, I feel more prepared to address a recurrence. Lastly, I allow myself an equal amount of uncertainty. That I might wake up one day and change my mind that R isn't working out well enough to be worth the risk, and I will also end it.

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

I think it takes a while for a WS to turn the table on those memories. It was quite some time later (year 2?) after my wife was doomscrolling reddit and a similar story to ours came up. She came to me crying saying, "I'm so sorry I was so shitty to you".

I think that most WS's really do enjoy the time and company of their AP. They built seemingly fond and positive memories of their activities together. This is the motivation of many wayward behaviors. Blameshifting. Minimizing. Continued lying. It's hard to be the bad guy in your own story, and the emotions tied to the AP, at least initially, are positive. If it didn't feel good, people wouldn't cheat.

I think once she "detoxes" from the A completely, like an addict in recovery, she'll see the A felt good, but it wasn't good for her.

These big emotions don't turn on a dime.

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood. I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

I consider my vows destroyed. I would not do a vow renewal. I'm happy in a marriage that despite being very solid and something that very well ought to last the rest of our lives, I philosophically view as uncertain and impermanent.

I don't know if this is something you can be happy and satisfied with, but I am.

This is a totally normal place to be 6 months out.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:47 PM, Wednesday, October 16th]

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

100% you should be concerned. This was a long term affair where she had as you said they had unprotected sex hundreds of times. It is natural that she would view this as positive as she would have stopped if it wasn’t satisfying. Her response about why she won’t do it again, as you stated, is for all the wrong reasons. The fact that it hurt her (and probably him) to end the affair is not a deterrent for this to happen again. Either with the AP, or another guy down the road. The fact that she says she hurt you as a reason to trust is also crap. The fact is the affair was wrong. She should be telling you it was the biggest mistake of her life and be begging you for forgiveness.

I am probably in the minority, but I’m a big believer in consequences being a good, but obviously not foolproof deterrent. What have you done to turn this positive event for her into something she will never even consider again? I’m also not in the camp of tolerating any wistful thoughts about the affair. I think my wife regretted it, but I made damn sure the consequences helped in any positive thoughts she might have had about it. I just don’t buy into letting them through time come to this conclusion. After what she did she should be willing to crawl over broken glass to win you back. Not that she still might not have positive feelings about their relationship, but she better keep that in her mind and not expect you to console her.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?

I have to ask, how was she able to keep this thing a secret? This wasn’t just some ONS at a business trip, this was hundreds of time and included a pregnancy! In order to regain some kind of trust you need to shut down all the avenues she used to hide this. Did she have friends or family that covered for her? Was it with someone she worked with? If that’s the case the friends and the job has to go if it happened there. If it was under the pretense of going to a class or the gym, that also needs to be addressed. The fact she was able to do this for so many times and so long requires a real talent for deception. You need to be smarter than her. If you can’t figure out how she did it, you will be powerless to stopping it again. In order to gain back trust she needs to be 100% transparent. Are you getting that. Have you cut out any route where she may contact him again, and vice versa? In order to build back trust you need first to address these things.

It is disturbing that she isn’t all aboard. She should be reading everything she can get her hands on. She shouldn’t be doing some things suggested by Affair recovery. She should jumping in head first to do everything.

You can’t nice her back.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again?

There’s another question lurking behind that question. That one is…

Even if WW does all the things I need, and I have come to trust her completely again, will that be enough?

I’ve seen it here plenty of times. Long ago affair, partner is exemplary following, has done everything possible right, life is good, many years go by…and it rises from the dead. Or it never went away.

They can do absolutely everything right, and it may not be enough. If it’s not enough, then it is you, not them. And that is OK.

So as you grind through this process, spend at least half your time pondering on whether it is just too much even if they meet your every demand. If you realize the answer is ‘no’ might as well not waste anyone’s time. If you think it is ‘yes’, then put as much healing/growing time into yourself as you ask from them. That is your work to do, for yourself, that they can’t help you with really.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 11:37 PM, Wednesday, October 16th]

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

In the end, I learned to trust myself. And that was the game changer. WH could earn trust via proven behavior over time. But that blind faith, beyond the shadow of a doubt trust was forever shattered. So I learned to trust myself. Trust in my own healing. Trust in my own strength.

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

I had to let go of that as a goal. I was always so damn certain he'd never cheat on me to begin with and that as we know was a lie [I was so confident I even told LTAP this the one time she came in town to one of WH gigs - but that a story for another day]. So now I know that he is capable of this. And that is % on him.

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

At 6 months out - she's most likely in the say anything phase. She wants the affair to be forgotten. She wants to rugsweep the affair. And she's probably clinging to the facade that "it wasn't really me that did this to you". Sadly that's about the norm at this stage. And IMHO that bullshit of how "letting go of that relationship was so painful for her" is a mega bitch slap to you. How dare her! I'm sitting here fuming on your behalf. She's in pity party mode. She's more about avoiding her own pain than helping you through yours. She is not [at least not yet] a safe partner.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

There's nothing normal about infidelity. But sadly at 6 months out - her being in self preservation/pity party mode and you being in the trying to make sense of it all mode is about as "normal" as it gets.

TAKE YOUR TIME. You need to heal you and she needs to heal her before you can heal the marriage. And you are under no obligation to make a firm decision on that at this time.

1. For us, I found that there were certain little things I could trust early. This was because of his actions. And, I tried really hard not to trust him. But, I could trust him to care for our child. I could trust him to show me his phone. I could trust him to help me navigate a problem I was having functioning with normal life while also dealing with the trauma of his betrayal. I could trust him to make me a meal when he saw that I couldn’t eat. Weirdly, I could trust him to do dishes. (He’d never done them pre A). We also used the Gottman trust inventory. He did a 101 small things that I couldn’t deny he was doing. Will I ever trust him blindly again. No. I’ve learned that the only person you can put that trust in, is yourself. He could always do this again. I really think we’re past that, but he could.

2. There is a part of me that recognizes that he could cheat again. I have no control over that. But, I do know that I can keep myself safe if he does. My brain will see how far we’ve come and double down on wanting to dig deep into searching for evidence that he’s not fully committed. Bottom line, if he cheats….it’s on him…not me. As difficult as it is for me to swallow sometimes, it had nothing to do with me. He was looking for a painkiller and OW/ex "friend" was willing (not special). There will always be someone willing. When the A was going on, I felt there was something cosmically amiss. He will never again be able to say "she’s just a friend" and he knows it. He will never again be able to say to me that "it’s all in your head" because my response to that is VERY different now. I trust myself more than I trust him. Our MC said he had one job - Be trustworthy. That’s all. I appreciate the work we’ve both done to get us here. It was/is a monumental and continuous effort for us both.

3. I’m certain that my FWH enjoyed the A. If it wasn’t enjoyable in some ways, why would they do it at all. 5 years out, he conveys that he is disgusted that he went there. Do I believe that 100%, no. I think most WS never believe they’ll be caught. And for my FWH and for many, once that illusion is broken, it is a bucket of cold water. I could see him mourn the loss of the friendship he had with her, that we had between our families. That was a very difficult thing for me to see. He could have feelings to work through about that, but I couldn’t be the one that he looked to for support in dealing with that. He, my very stoic FWH, embraced IC. It isn’t a real relationship. It has none of the ups and downs of being truly connected to a partner over time. It is a fantasy land.

4. That thought and others will linger. It pops up for me still, not as often, but still. It will become less intense. A year out, I don’t think I could have formulated these questions. If you’re asking if it is worth living through this pain and doing the hard work of recovery and reconciliation, that is an answer you’ll only find within yourself. For me, our marriage will never be the same….and in so many ways I’m glad for where we are and how we arrived here makes me monumentally sad.

R for us has been so many small , but enormous efforts, daily…little things that we show each other that we’re showing up for each other. Imperfect, bad moods, being vulnerable, being present for each other. As one of my other favorite regular posters here wrote…..like the dread pirate in the Princess Bride….Sleep well, I’ll most likely kill/divorce you in the morning. My MC calls it a quick release. If I have to be done, it is ok to be done. Pre-A, the thought naively never crossed my mind.

1. Even if WW does all the things I need, will I ever really be able to trust her again? Am I just wasting both of our time trying to reconcile?
Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

The decision to trust, is yours, as it was mine and as it is every person's. You are the only one who can decide whom you will trust.
My W rebuilt trust with, I think, thousands of trust-building actions that included:

1) answering all my questions consistently, even though I asked them multiple times from multiple POVs
2) getting less defensive as time went on
3) hearing me
4) asking for what she wanted and responding honestly to my requests
5) sitting in MC sessions and taking confrontation after confrontation from our MC and changing in response to them
6) there was more, but I can't think of the words....

2. What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

Well, she didn't. I know in theory she can cheat again. I also know that she used IC and MC to close up a lot of her vulnerabilities to cheating. I know she never wanted to cheat. I know that I required a lot more from her than not cheating again - I wanted a better M than we ever had before, and we had a good M before the A. W was willing to do and actually a lot of work to achieve that. So did I.

3. Based on our conversations, the affair for her was a very positive time. She has many fond memories of it. She has said many times that she is sorry she hurt me, and that if she could go back in time she would not do it again. She assures me that she would never cheat on me again because letting go of that relationship was so painful for her, and seeing my pain was so painful for her. However saying those things is not the same as saying "the affair was wrong, and I will never cheat on you again".
Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

I'd be very concerned. I was OK with my W remembering pleasure from the sex, because I can't imagine doing sex without pleasure, but good memories of the A and reluctance to throw the ap under a bus would have given me 2nd thoughts about R.

As it happened, my W says the first few sexual encounters were pleasurable, but then it became a real chore. On d-day she said that she thought ow was a woman with many positive characteristics, but as of d-day, she had no fond memories of the A. She knew she had violated too many boundaries to count, and she was committed to doing everything she could think of to prevent violating those boundaries in the future.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would hold off on committing to R until and unless my WS realized how her A was a betrayal of herself and of you. As I wrote - perhaps not in so many words - your MC is isn't helping and can't help until your WS is held to account. I would expect a good MC to thank a WS for honesty, and if the WS continues to say they had a great time in the A, I'd expect the MC to recommend D. I just don't see a WS who has fond memories of a period in which they lied to their BS as a good candidate for R. Thinking that breaking up was too painful to contemplate again makes me even less confident your W is a good candidate for R right now. (That means 'nw'; she could become a good R candidate in the future.)

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile … I'm having a difficult time getting past the idea that she intentionally had an affair, and that this affair really for all intents and purposes destroyed the part of our marriage that mattered - our vows to each other. Without vows we might as well just be friends with benefits.
Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

Well, I get the desire to R. I certainly had it from the moment my W revealed her A. I wanted it even before my W said she wanted to stay together.

But wanting is different from doing. I didn't actually commit to R until I had seen my W work consistently for R for 90 days - and it would have been better if I had waited longer, just on general principles. She worked 100%, never a slip, for those 90 days. She certainly made mistakes during those 90 days, but I believe every choice she made was in the service of R. I committed to R because I figured we had resolved lots of issues in that period, and I predicted we'd resolve any issue that arose in the future.

But I had gotten past trying to control our future. I knew I could be making a mistake. I consoled myself with, 'If you hit an issue you can't resolve, you can always split.'

Have you committed to R? If so, I think you've done so too early. My reco is to tell your W something like, 'I want to R, but I'm not confident enough that you're as committed as I am. I have the following concerns: ....' If you've already said that explicitly, great. If you haven't your best approach is to do so, IMO.

And another reco is to find a new MC, one who will address the A first.

As for where I was 6 months out, I was still uncertain R would succeed for us. I had just come through a rage stage, which started 5 months out. At the time, SIers spoke of a rage stage coming at 6 months out, so I was either on schedule or a bit early. You don't mention rage, but that may not be a problem. Everyone's timeline is at least a little unique. I'd question myself if I didn't hit rage somewhere between 4 and 12 months out, but I could be wrong.

BTW, when I joined SI, people wrote about d-day 'antiversaries.' I still use the term, but in some ways I'm a Luddite. Of course, in others I'm a visionary - I have some CDS, but I never gave up vinyl.

Bump by request of OP.

It's been 91 days since I confronted my WS with the fact I knew she was having an affair and her reaction was to ask for a divorce. I told her from the start that reconciliation is what I wanted while she has (more or less) eased back into our marriage, her level of commitment to R is unclear . We have been reading all the books and having conversations about each one. It appears on the surface that she's trying but I get the feeling sometimes that she's just placating me.

I think it's still very early in the process to know how we're doing but I feel very little reassurance from our conversations. I talk about how our relationship will never be the same but we can build a stronger foundation with what we're learning, her response is generally "we'll take it one day at a time". Each time I try and share where I am emotionally, the hurt and betrayal I'm working through, she reminds me of everything I have ever done which contributed to her decision to have an affair. I have not been a perfect husband by any means but I have taken ownership of everything she has presented as reasons for her unhappiness. After 3 months my WS has finally shared that she and her AP had discussed how what they were doing was wrong (it didn't stop them), I'm not certain if she thinks she gets some sort of credit for that admission?

She did break it off with her AP a few weeks after I confronted her with the fact I knew about the A. A source of my insecurity is not knowing if she is really interested in reconciliation or just the fact that I exposed her AP as the low life gold digger that he is? Am I concerned she will attempt to re-kindle that relationship? No, but that same feeling doesn't extend to a new relationship quite yet.

Yesterday was the first day in months where we spent a significant part of the day apart. This morning she told me how much she enjoyed the freedom to go and do whatever came to mind and we should have separate activities regularly. On the surface I whole heartedly agree but in truth I do have some trust issues I'm still working through. That said, if we're going to put this in the past, I have to be able to trust her and unless I give her the opportunity to build that trust how will we ever get it back?

[This message edited by Stabbedintheheart at 1:26 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

Theevent and Stabbedintheheart,

You should both read the Living in Limbo books by Michele Langley. These books (two of them, pretty quick reads) were written by a woman, addressed to cheating women to try and help them understand "why." I tried to understand my wife’s "why" for years. Read everything. These books did it for me. Although, it wasn’t good news.

They might give you some insight into your situation.

[This message edited by Formerpeopleperson at 1:49 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

Want to address a couple of the issues you raise:

On the trust...
Chances are your whole concept of how to trust has been shot. Not only your trust to your wife, but also how you build and base your trust. I can share that after my d-day I left that particular relationship and did what I thought of at the time a perfect separation. About 2 years later met my present wife, and about 10-12 years into that marriage we had some really serious issues that I realized stemmed from my inability to trust.
Took me time to realize that. My ex fiance’s infidelity wrecked my ability to trust... I had to learn a new way to trust.
That’s easy, and I still use that "new" method. It’s trust but verify... Something we do all the time without realizing it. Basically – on many trust-based issues we "trust" that our faith is verified by a third party – like Health and Safety verify that the restaurant we eat at follows hygiene and rodent/cockroach regulations – verified by a license on the wall. We trust that the airline has verified their pilots.
On a more general personal level: I had a hard time trusting mechanics fixing my truck after a couple of incidents of shoddy repairs at exuberant prices. A friend recommended one so I took my truck to him with some break-issues. He called me with a diagnosis of what was wrong and what repairs were required along with a price and when it would be ready. I accepted, but went online to check if the price was fair (it was), and an hour later he called again saying that since this was the condition on the right side it only made sense to check and change the left one too. Again, a price and a new ready-time. When I got there I was charged exactly what I was quoted, and he showed me the worn brake-pumps he replaced. Basically – verified the trust I had given him. I have since used the same mechanic, and now I trust both the price he quotes, the recommendations and the timeframe he gives. Trust based on a history of verification.

In our private life we might ask our WS to share all media. We might riffle through their social media, their personal emails, their browsing history... we might ask questions and expect replies. But if you have done this 2-3 times a day for a week then maybe it’s enough to do this once a day, or once every couple of days, or eventually on rare occasions... Eventually then only if we have a need... We establish trust by verifying there isn’t anything going on. We build trust on verification, rather than offer trust unconditionally until it’s broken.
Same with their agenda. If they say they are going to the gym and then the mall for a quick lunch with their friend Sue we might watch to see if they take their gym-bag with them, if there really is a hot-yoga class at 11:30, if there is a charge for Joe’s Café at the Mall on her card, if the timeframe and milage on their car fits in with what they say they did, if there is sweaty gym-clothes in the laundry basket once home... We might ask Sue how lunch was and check the reaction. But after a couple of weeks of sniffing sweaty leotards... then maybe we believe her when she says she’s heading for the gym. Trust but verify, then build trust on a history of verification.

If you truly believe you will never again trust your wife... Divorce.
Keep in mind that if you were to have an accident and be in a coma tomorrow she is the one that has to decide on your treatment and/if when to pull the plug. If you don’t trust her you will never know if her decision will be based on love and caring, or the practicality of being a widow rather than a divorcee, free to go be with OM. IMHO you need trust to have a good marriage, and the sort of trust I use – the trust but verify or verifiable trust – is the best type of trust IMHO.

--

I’m not happy that she has fond emotions of her affair.
I think a key to a good marriage is when both parties realize the fragility of the marriage.
Like... if you are waling in wintery conditions and slip, you tend to be extra careful carrying on. You no longer take walking along at full speed as granted, but take care and walk appropriately. IMHO it should be the same with marriage – the only two things keeping you married is that YOU want to be married and SHE wants to be married. You BOTH have the ability and freedom to decide NOT to be married.

I think that by telling her you want to reconcile – basically no matter what – you have removed that fragility from her. She has no need to be careful.

I think your six month thoughts display that. They are normal, and they are augmented by the fact she doesn’t seem to understand what she risked.

I suggest you be totally frank with her. Let her know that you feel taken for granted and you feel like she’s with you as a compromise. Tell her that you have had an epiphany:
You do love her and want this marriage, but you don’t want to be an option. You need to be the choice. You love her, but realize and accept that with time you can get over that and live without her, but you can’t live thinking she sees you as a compromise.
Not only that, but since you love her you do not want to stand in the way of her happiness. If she truly has such difficult memories about ending the other relationship and has such fond memories of that, then you set her free to go seek her happiness there. You will not stand in the way of her happiness.

Make it clear that you too have your doubts, and that her contributions so far have not convinced you that you two should be married. If she truly wants you and this marriage, then she too needs to convince you. This can’t be one-sided.

We have happily reconciled. We are one of the lucky ones.

However……….

My situation is a bit different. My H planned to D me for the OW. He spoke about a D but did nothing about it - he just kept saying he wanted a D (but then change his mind. And then want a D. And then change his mind).

My point is that many cheaters never plan to D. They just want to have an affair or get some cheap thrill etc.

I trust my husband. However that is not a big issue for me b/c I will walk away from this marriage for any reason I deem necessary. If I’m unhappy and we cannot resolve the issue, then we D. I don’t need him to be happy. I don’t need him for a social life. I don’t need him financially.

I have protected myself in case of a D. I have an exit strategy just in case.

I have self confidence I would survive a D and be very happy. Because that is just where I am in life.

I love my husband. But I am no longer accepting less than what I deserve and I take no crap. I hold people accountable and have just decided life is too short to be unhappy.

I’m also not in the camp of tolerating any wistful thoughts about the affair. I think my wife regretted it, but I made damn sure the consequences helped in any positive thoughts she might have had about it. I just don’t buy into letting them through time come to this conclusion.

I am in this camp as well. Even though R was never a possibility for me I did make sure any memories of his A's were now intertwined with the devastation of the M and to me. I did not make things comfortable for my xWS at all.

Q: Those who have reconciled, how did you decide that you could trust your partner again? What questions did you ask yourself that helped give you clarity?

Once my H said (and I felt) that he was all in on R and had established NC with the AP, I made the decision to extend trust unless/until I was given a fresh reason not to trust. I knew that I didn't have any control over what he did, so I gave him the gift of trusting him and decided that I would deal with it when/if it happened if the trust turned out to be misplaced. He appreciated it and he didn't squander it.

Q: What did you need to see to convince you that your spouse really did change into a person that would never cheat on you again?

My H worked at the same company as the AP, though not closely (still does) and what I wanted was to be informed of all breaches of NC, no matter how small. He did that. He couldn't block her because they had to have occasional professional contact, so he'd forward her emails to me and let me know how he handled it. He let me know when he passed her in the hall, or when she approached him. He invited me to come take him to lunch and to walk in like I owned the place.

He sat with me night after night as I grilled him about details repeatedly. He was authentic and told me the truth when I asked him how he felt about her, or what he was thinking about, or how he was feeling - even if it was painful for him to say or for me to hear. He said that he made a deal with himself that he would do this for a year, minimum. He enthusiastically went to MC and read what the MC assigned to him.

Most importantly, he told me that he would never do this to himself again. It's nice to hear someone say that they won't hurt you again, but when they say they'd never hurt themselves like that again, that carries more weight.

Q: Should I be concerned about these positive emotions, and the fact that she seems upset by the fallout of the affair not the affair itself? Or is this generally expected behavior from wayward spouses, and part of the recovery process?

It royally pissed me off that my H still held positive feelings towards the AP for a long time after NC was established. He was upset that he had ruined a good friendship with her and wanted to go back to that. He wanted to be able to treat her like any other coworker and wish her a happy birthday and greet her when he passed her in the hall. I wanted him to feel about her the way that I did: That she was an enemy. My enemy, an enemy of the marriage, and his enemy too if he wanted to be with me.

Really, that she's being authentic with her feelings is a good thing, even if it's painful for you. She's not placating you. She's being real. It will likely pass into indifference with time and work on herself, and even contempt. It took a year for my H to stop viewing the AP as the damsel in distress, and that was because he found out that she had had a simultaneous EA with their coworker. He found out that what they had wasn't all that special after all, and that she didn't love him - she was using him for her own purposes. That was a lucky break for me. For both of us.

Q: Is this a normal place to be 6 months out, and how did you move past these thoughts in order to really reconcile?

Yes, it's quite normal, IMO. It takes time, self-help work, therapy, talk, transparency, vulnerability, authenticity. Time takes time.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:22 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

I’m also not in the camp of tolerating any wistful thoughts about the affair. I think my wife regretted it, but I made damn sure the consequences helped in any positive thoughts she might have had about it. I just don’t buy into letting them through time come to this conclusion.

I agree. Any time my H got wistful about the AP, I reminded him that she knew that he was married. She knew what she was getting into, and she knew he didn't intend to leave me. She knew she was participating in hurtful behavior, hurting me, hurting his children.

Healthy people don't have affairs. Sick people do.

My situation is a bit different. My H planned to D me for the OW. He spoke about a D but did nothing about it - he just kept saying he wanted a D (but then change his mind. And then want a D. And then change his mind).

My point is that many cheaters never plan to D. They just want to have an affair or get some cheap thrill etc.

Mine did the same thing. The A started as FWB, with my H telling the AP that he was never going to leave me, he just wanted to get laid. At the end, he was doing the same wishy-washy thing, telling me he wanted a D, then telling me he couldn't live without me, then back to D again.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 8:13 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

Hi everyone thanks for the responses I really appreciate it. It's been a few months since my last post so I wanted to give some updates. I will try to respond to people without making this post too long.

Update:

I canceled our couples therapist. Best decision ever! I've heard it said that couples therapy isn't very useful right after betrayal and from my experience I have to agree. I'm not convinced that couples therapy is useful at all in this situation unless the therapist knows how to handle a couple, and will hold my wife to account for her actions and the damage those actions have caused, and also her evasions, and gaslighting. If we go back it will be to one I have selected myself (she selected the others we wen't to), and feel confident they will address the situation well.

4. I love my wife, and really want to reconcile. The last few weeks I've been having a difficult time though. Every time I think positive things about her, the "she intentionally betrayed me" thoughts creep in and ruin my good mood.

I do still love my wife and want to reconcile. Unfortunately this is still happening on the regular for me. I'm getting more and more angry about what she did and how she has handled it since D-day. We have had many fights, and I am starting to see how emotionally damaged she really is. She is going to therapy but won't let me into that world at all so I just have to trust her that she is addressing her why's. Thats pretty hard to do for me obviously.

waitedwaytoolong

The fact that it hurt her (and probably him) to end the affair is not a deterrent for this to happen again. Either with the AP, or another guy down the road. The fact that she says she hurt you as a reason to trust is also crap. The fact is the affair was wrong. She should be telling you it was the biggest mistake of her life and be begging you for forgiveness.

I 100% agree. I said as much to her the other day. She asked for a list of things she could do to show me she is committed and one of them I mentioned is that I need her to convince me that that she believes the affair itself was wrong. I said that if she doesn't feel it was wrong that it's likely she will do it again. She disagreed with me on that one.

HouseOfPlane

They can do absolutely everything right, and it may not be enough. If it’s not enough, then it is you, not them. And that is OK.

It is okay, but I would like to know before putting years worth of effort into it. How does one know this is the case before hand? What questions could I ask myself to give me clarity on this question?

Chaos

And she's probably clinging to the facade that "it wasn't really me that did this to you"

I believe she is clinging to this facade. The other day I pointed out that her actions certainly hurt the kids. We haven't told them about the affair but they know we are fighting, and it's causing them stress. Her response "the conditions in the marriage hurt the kids. They will be fine"

And IMHO that bullshit of how "letting go of that relationship was so painful for her" is a mega bitch slap to you. How dare her! I'm sitting here fuming on your behalf.

I've done a fair amount of fuming myself, but only after I came out of the betrayal fog. Before that I was just in shock.

sisoon

If I were in your shoes, I think I would hold off on committing to R until and unless my WS realized how her A was a betrayal of herself and of you.

I wish I could, but I have already committed to this path. Now I'm faced with the choice of do I get off or stay on. It's maddening. I wish I had the presence of mind to make decisions like that right after betrayal, but I didn't.

I would expect a good MC to thank a WS for honesty, and if the WS continues to say they had a great time in the A, I'd expect the MC to recommend D. I just don't see a WS who has fond memories of a period in which they lied to their BS as a good candidate for R.

This one is difficult for me because she clearly knew the affair would hurt me, and she did it anyway. She also has fond memories with her AP, which I'm not surprised about, but still hurts. This is why I want her to convince me that she views the betrayal itself as a bad thing. If she was totally fine with betraying me then I would want D as well. Only a crazy person would stay with someone who intentionally hurt them and didn't feel bad about it. I struggle with that a lot but it does seem like she feels bad about it. I try to reframe it as "everyone makes mistakes and she made a huge one" instead of her intentionally trying to hurt me.

But wanting is different from doing. I didn't actually commit to R until I had seen my W work consistently for R for 90 days - and it would have been better if I had waited longer, just on general principles.

Again I wish I had the presence of mind to do this in the beginning. One of my personal flaws that I'm working on is that I am way too nice to people. I'm not good at putting proper boundaries in place especially with people I'm close to.

I'd question myself if I didn't hit rage somewhere between 4 and 12 months out, but I could be wrong.

I hit the rage stage a couple of weeks after making this initial post. I'm moving from that to the exhausted I'm not sure I can do this much longer stage.

Stabbedintheheart

Each time I try and share where I am emotionally, the hurt and betrayal I'm working through, she reminds me of everything I have ever done which contributed to her decision to have an affair.

This is exactly what I've been going through for the last 8 months. It's getting really old. I think maybe she is just trying to communicate what she wants our "new marriage" to be, but it comes across as her criticizing me for everything.

Formerpeopleperson

You should both read the Living in Limbo books by Michele Langley.

I looked this book up on Amazon... it's $100! I guess I'll have to get it from the library.

Bigger

I like this version of trust. Seems very practical.

If you truly believe you will never again trust your wife... Divorce.

I honestly don't know how I could know this.

I think that by telling her you want to reconcile – basically no matter what – you have removed that fragility from her. She has no need to be careful.

I think your six month thoughts display that. They are normal, and they are augmented by the fact she doesn’t seem to understand what she risked.

100% agree here. Again I wish I had been in a better place mentally after finding out. But here I am.

Make it clear that you too have your doubts, and that her contributions so far have not convinced you that you two should be married. If she truly wants you and this marriage, then she too needs to convince you. This can’t be one-sided.

I haven't used these words but I have said something similar lately. Especially the part about convincing me.

The1stWife

My point is that many cheaters never plan to D. They just want to have an affair or get some cheap thrill etc.

I don't believe mine planned to D either. She would have left already if she had. She can be very strong willed. Unfortunately I can't pull this card until I am fully ready to D, and I'm not there yet. I still hold out hope, and she is still making significant efforts. Not always in the ways I want or that I feel are effective, but effort none the less.

SacredSoul33

Really, that she's being authentic with her feelings is a good thing, even if it's painful for you. She's not placating you. She's being real.

I (grudgingly) agree that it is a good sign. I am still plagued by the fact that I have been WAY too nice and haven't established any real consequences for her behavior. I doubt she believes I would really leave. Again the only way to pull that card is to be fully committed and I'm not there yet.

[This message edited by Theevent at 9:42 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

I wish I could, but I have already committed to this path.

May I ask how & why? What would be so wrong to say something like this to her:

"Wife, I now recognize I was literally in a state of complete shock when I committed to R. I’m sorry, but with what I’m seeing (or not seeing) in you, I can no longer commit to R "no matter what". Here’s a list of things I need. You are free to reject all of it but I now have boundaries, and if my boundaries keep getting crossed, I’m afraid I can no longer remain married to you"

Whoa. She's really not owning her stuff, is she?

She asked for a list of things she could do to show me she is committed and one of them I mentioned is that I need her to convince me that that she believes the affair itself was wrong. I said that if she doesn't feel it was wrong that it's likely she will do it again. She disagreed with me on that one.

Admitting that having an affair is WRONG is a good start. How can she think that what she did wasn't wrong?! If I understand correctly, she's owning that she hurt you, but basically attesting that it was worth it because of what she got out of it. Yikes.

Her response "the conditions in the marriage hurt the kids. They will be fine"

You mean the current condition of the marriage caused by you betraying your H and sleeping with another man? Good lord, woman.

If I were in your shoes, I think I would hold off on committing to R until and unless my WS realized how her A was a betrayal of herself and of you.

I wish I could, but I have already committed to this path. Now I'm faced with the choice of do I get off or stay on. It's maddening. I wish I had the presence of mind to make decisions like that right after betrayal, but I didn't.

You can change your mind at any time. This is your one life and you get to choose what to do with it. You are not stuck. You can change your stance at any time, like gr8ful said.

I think maybe she is just trying to communicate what she wants our "new marriage" to be, but it comes across as her criticizing me for everything.

This isn't like a car that was totaled. She doesn't get to trot on down to the dealership and pick out a new one with all the features that she wants and then everything's back to normal. Continuing with the insurance analogy (I'm an agent lol), insurance doesn't cover deliberate acts. She got wasted on luuurv and drove the marriage into the ditch because she saw something new and sparkly that intrigued her, mowing you down along the way. Now she gets to go to court for the DUI, the damages, and pain and suffering that she caused. And she gets to pay those damages OUT OF HER POCKET. And it doesn't matter that the totaled car (marriage prior to the A) had a bad transmission. Normal people get that fixed or sell it. They don't deliberately drive it into a ditch, injuring people in the process, and then assert that it was a good idea.

Are you in IC? If not, I think it would be helpful for you.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:31 PM, Thursday, December 19th]

gr8ful

May I ask how & why?

How? Day 1 because she told me about the affair on her own, seemed very sorry, and made several promises to me.
Why? Because I didn't want to loose her and destroy our family. I still love her despite what she has done. Though I realize now that I was saving nothing. She had already destroyed our marriage and I was trying to resuscitate a corpse. Trying to make it be like my memory told me it was. (this f*!#ing sucks)

I still want R, but I am learning that she is not healthy and I need to firm up some, and set some boundaries for my own safety.

She is making significant efforts, just not always the way I think she should be.

"Wife, I now recognize I was literally in a state of complete shock when I committed to R. I’m sorry, but with what I’m seeing (or not seeing) in you, I can no longer commit to R "no matter what".

I have said something similar to this, just not as explicit. It wen't like this "I need you to convince me that you are never going to cheat on me again, and I need to see you doing things I ask to get me there."

Here’s a list of things I need.

I am working on coming up with a list, but it's more difficult than I expected because a lot of what I want to see is attitude change, not specific things. Thats exactly why I'm posting here actually.

You are free to reject all of it but I now have boundaries, and if my boundaries keep getting crossed, I’m afraid I can no longer remain married to you"

If I go this route I have to be ready to back it up with action. I'm not sure I'm there yet, and I don't want to self sabotage if she is making efforts to get where I need her to go, even if it's not as fast as I want it to be. (I am open to hearing alternative views on this)
SacredSoul33

Admitting that having an affair is WRONG is a good start. How can she think that what she did wasn't wrong?! If I understand correctly, she's owning that she hurt you, but basically attesting that it was worth it because of what she got out of it. Yikes.

I don't want to paint the wrong picture here. I think she does think it was wrong. She was disagreeing with the part where I link that feeling it was wrong is necessary to prevent a reoccurrence of that behavior. She disagrees on that part, and I still think it's true.

Her response "the conditions in the marriage hurt the kids. They will be fine"

You mean the current condition of the marriage caused by you betraying your H and sleeping with another man? Good lord, woman.

She was referring to the conditions of the marriage prior to the affair... Not that thats much better though.

You can change your mind at any time. This is your one life and you get to choose what to do with it. You are not stuck. You can change your stance at any time, like gr8ful said.

It's not so much that I don't feel like I have a choice, I know that I do. I was mostly complaining about how it would have been much easier to have waited to agree to R in the beginning, and only committed to that after seeing real change from her. She would have seen real consequences early on, and directly in response to her behavior.
But now since I was such a "nice guy" to her trying to nice her back so to speak, it's more difficult to know when to have hard boundaries and with what. I am trying to answer questions for myself so that I can determine my hard and soft boundaries. I know that no more in person contact with the AP is a hard boundary for me. Any other contact of any kind would cause me to explain that it needs to stop immediately and would become another hard boundary.

But there are other questions that I don't yet have an answer to:

- Is infidelity a deal breaker for me and I don't know it yet?
- How long do I try to fix things?
- How patient should I be with her?
- Does my future look like it's going to be a happy one?
- etc.

If she was being a total b*!ch these decisions would be easy. Maybe more painful, but at least clear. But she is making an effort, and most of the time is very pleasant (though our fights are really draining me).

I am in IC, and I am planning on talking to my therapist about these questions as well. This site is really valuable because so many people have been through similar issues. I like to get as much advice as I can from those that have been there.