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UTK, we have had very similar experiences when it comes to the details of the A regarding the double betrayal.

I know and feel your pain, we will get through this.

Please see a doctor along with the ic. It is possible that either you have the wrong medication or the wrong dosage. Be safe my friend.

UTK , I've lurked here longer than i should but Ive come to realize that every betrayal is the same, whether it's been engrained in your head from seeing it or what may be worse the imagining of some crazy porn scene, it is simply betrayal, a best friend a brother a father a girl. it's a shitty secret that you simply cant believe, that is what happened to me. It happens and it sucks. Breath, drink tons of water and know you didn't do a damn thing wrong to deserve it.

For those that chose to R. How is your life now? I know this is still very new to me, but I just can’t imagine ever trusting, or getting past this.

UTK, You found out in real time, I found out 12-18 years later, meaning in 6 yrs of dating a series of ONS before marriage ,I don't know which is worse. Everyone is dealing with their own nightmare, for me living a fake life for a long period of time believing something that wasn't true just blows my mind, my wife admitted to a bunch of stuff after I was married for 10 years with two kids under 3, I am not qualified to speak of R because I am the poster child of the plain of lethal flatness. She is a good mother, a good earner I trust her but I just look at her sometimes and just shake my head in disbelief.

PS pay no attention to my user name, I think if I left my life my life may have been much worse, who knows but that is the shit sandwich we have to wrestle with.

[This message edited by shouldofleft at 1:32 PM, Tuesday, October 1st]

Well, W & I are dealing with aging in a big way already, and the future doesn't look much brighter on that front. Back problems have kept me off my bike since mid-July, which is real bummer.

We have to deal with nasty, incompetent shmeggegis running our condo association. One board member cut down cable TV wires without warning, thereby cutting off internet, TV, and phone for an owner - without taking into account that Comcast, not the condo, owns the wires. I urged the affected owner to call the police, but she wouldn't. The same guy was prez from 2021-2024, and he claimed his tenure was a success. In the next breath, he told us he wanted to levy a $30,000/unit special assessment. I can't imagine what failure would have been....

Our M? That's fine. We just celebrated our 57th anniversary - 59 years together.

BUT - BUT - BUT

My W was all in on changing herself from d-day on. She did not want to change to meet my needs. She wanted to change so she wouldn't keep living in fear and shame. She was going to change whether I stayed or not - but the changes she initiated on d-day were ones that made me love her more.

I still loved her. On d-day, she had been my limerent object for 45 years and counting. And it wasn't just limerence - I admired and liked her values, her intelligence, her willingness to put herself on the line intellectually, her independence, etc. We were partners in very real ways, and I liked that.

Also, I didn't commit to R until I knew in my gut that I would have a good life even if I chose D.

IOW we both were good candidates for R.

Do you want to live with your W for the rest of your life? Is she committed to do the work necessary to change from cheater to good partner?

Recovery is very good. Much depends on your partners heart in the matter. I highly, highly recommend getting the book Betrayal Bind and reading it...both of you. Also ...get into Jake Porters work. The website is called Daring Ventures. I subscribed to the unlimited access to his webinars. They are quite valuable.

Most of all friend ...seek God. Pray and read through the Psalms. Honestly, only Christ could have gotten me through this. He will grow your heart. Forgiveness is a choice, but also a process.

Your wife need to learn empathy if you will walk the R road successfully .

There will be ups and downs. Expect it. Remember, you are in a state of trauma whether you know it or not. The Betrayal Bind book will explain that. Look up Jake Porter on YouTube, he has some decent nuggets there too. May God heal you friend.

I'd be EXTREMELY careful making a decision for R right now.

Right now it appears that you know very little. VERY little. I don't know if your WW has given you new information, but her story of drinking herself to not even know what she was doing, does not add up. You need at the very least a timeline. And you need to consider that there may be past other affairs that you are not even aware of at this time.

Mnay BH have come on here and have soon discovered a few months later that their WW was still in the affair! Something for you to keep in mind.

Once again, so sorry you are facing this travesty of her making. A few things:

I just asked her to take my gun and hide it where I would never find it. I don’t think I would ever do that, but I’ve never wished I was dead more in my life. I promise you all that she did take it; and I don’t know where it is. I also don’t think I would ever go that far. I hurt so fucking bad. I know this is nothing new to this group, I still needed to get it out.

This alarms me greatly. As someone who lost a friend due to self-deletion over infidelity, Im going to encourage you to clear the decks of all other endeavors until a professional therapist feels that you are mentally/emotionally stable enough to interact with your WW. Please make your own well being your sole focus for a while and stay in regular therapy. Dont shy away from anti-depressants and/or mood stabilizers.

Secondly, you ask about how you are going to make it through an R attempt. As I have said in the past there are some exceptional people who are fWS's that have labored tirelessly to both improve their person and, in doing so, help heal their betrayed spouses. They were 100% committed to the R process. Some of them are right here on this site. I know some personally and my hat is off to all of them. That said, in my case and in many others, dealing with a quasi or unremorseful WS is a losing proposition and is very very painful.

Sisoons description of his experience really encapsulates what you should be looking for and the questions you should be asking yourself (again, when you are emotionally ready) imo:

My W was all in on changing herself from d-day on. She did not want to change to meet my needs. She wanted to change so she wouldn't keep living in fear and shame. She was going to change whether I stayed or not - but the changes she initiated on d-day were ones that made me love her more.

I still loved her. On d-day, she had been my limerent object for 45 years and counting. And it wasn't just limerence - I admired and liked her values, her intelligence, her willingness to put herself on the line intellectually, her independence, etc. We were partners in very real ways, and I liked that.

Also, I didn't commit to R until I knew in my gut that I would have a good life even if I chose D.

IOW we both were good candidates for R.

Do you want to live with your W for the rest of your life? Is she committed to do the work necessary to change from cheater to good partner?

Take care of yourself.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 11:13 PM, Tuesday, October 1st]

I am so sorry you are going through this but the only way through is through….

After dday, I had the guns removed from our home. I didn’t know we had two guns in our home but my SIL told me and so I confronted WS and he agreed to have them removed ( I was concerned about him)

Our situation involved escorts, during one summer, and we both have worked very hard this past year…we are one year post dday. So far, we are doing well…healing SLOWLY…..our MC says it is because of two things 1. My WS immediately taking all and full responsibility and beginning IC and group sessions to understand his underlying depression as well as embracing a betrayal trauma model to take care of me. 2. My ability to to have empathy both for myself AND to see that he too was suffering. It was very out of character- not making excuses, but I could see he was in pain. He had the same for me. He embraced healing 1000% …..that’s how we are still together…..that being said, Im still waiting and wondering if I will ever get over this

My betrayal story is almost trivial compared to yours and it’s been more than 28 years since my DDay. But it is still painful when I think about it, which happens way too easily. I am writing to let you know that you are not alone and you are not crazy. Suicide seemed like a plausible way out of my pain and humiliation. I really didn’t care if I lived or not. But I had experience investigating homicides, never a pleasant task, but the suicides were brutal. I had to meet with family and friends. Universally, the children struggled to comprehend how their father or mother could abandon them like this. How could he/she be so selfish? I refused to do anything that would let my children think I had put my interests ahead of theirs. I may have been found lacking as a husband, but I clung to my honor, my fatherhood credentials, and my duties. I also have to admit that clearing the way for POSOM to take over my fathering duties was also a contributing factor. I came to a compromise with myself. I prayed to not wake up, thus putting any onus on God, not me. I have since learned that this is known as passive suicidal ideations. I begged God to take me every night for about 5 years. Then one day I asked myself, "Why should I die?" After all, I didn’t do anything wrong. True, the woman I would have taken a bullet for had put one in me, but she is not in charge of my happiness or my self worth. You asked about reconciliation experiences. We are still married because I concluded that my life is better with her than without her, but I have had to downgrade her previous AAA rating to a single A. I would not have stayed if I had concluded that she had PIV sex with him. I knew that that image would ruin sexual intimacy for me and if I could not enjoy that intimacy then why be married? Maybe after I came out of shock I would have changed my mind about this, but that is the line I drew in the hours after discovery. Everyone is different. Take some time, see a therapist (I wish I had), then buckle up. Brother, you are not alone. You are normal. It's going to take years to navigate this crap storm.

R is something that is possible down the road. Any early attempts at R WILL backfire. She is reading from "The Cheaters Handbook". "I was drunk, I don't remember is unacceptable". She knew it has happened in the past and didn't stop it or confess it to you. There were sober times that she knew she was going to put herself back into the situation.

Infidelity takes a lot of mental gymnastics to get to a place where you are having sex with an AP in the house. She "soberly" gave herself permission to run many stop signs to get where she was. She MUST get to a place to figure out how she got that far. She needs to be honest about any communication they had, they didn't just fall into it.

You need more time to see her actions and get to the bottom of how they got here.

What Tanner said x2.

Don't worry about reconciling at this moment. You are still in the discovery stage. Not only do you need to have your questions answered, you need to believe you have them answered truthfully. THEN, your wife has to show you, through actions, that she is a good candidate to even consider reconciliation.

You'll never forget what happened. You'll never 'get over' what happened. But you may be able to, someday, accept what happened. And maybe someday you'll forgive her. Forgiving isn't even necessary to successfully reconcile, but the other steps are needed if you want want to move forward with her. Time can be your greatest ally or your biggest foe, depending on how you use it. Don't be afraid to take as much time as you deem necessary to make any large decisions regarding your marriage.

Thanks to all of you for the support and guidance you have shown me. It doesn’t make it any easier, but helps to hear from those of you who have been through this.

As for my last question re: reconciliation, I am in no way thinking of it at this time. I posed that question because I can’t even fathom that at this time. I had my latest IC last night. We went through a lot. When she asked if I knew where I was leaning at this time (she has been amazing and in no way was this a question to push me) I told het at this time I am leaning towards D. I can’t imagine ever trusting her again, and without that, what’s the point? She seemed surprised by that.

Many here seem to think that I am all in on R. Maybe that's because I am honest when saying I really don't know. I feel many feel I should have filed weeks ago. Maybe they are right. Right or wrong, this is a woman I have have been friends with for 30 years, in love with for over 20, and married for over 18. Damn. I truly wish it was that simple (again, maybe it should be), but for me, its not.

I truly wish it was that simple (again, maybe it should be), but for me, its not.

Quick answer, it’s not simple. You are correct in weighing your options. I agree with the others that you are probably still in the discovery stage.

Have you gotten to the bottom of what happened so at least you know what she is expecting you to forgive? How long, where, emotional components ?It's going to take some time to get it all out.

In the meantime you don’t have to do anything except work on your healing. The marriage can wait.

I gave her a list of questions I wanted answered, plus some demands. I was clear with her it was her one chance to come clean and that if I found she lied about any of it, even years down the line, the divorce would be started the next day.

She is still claiming she doesn’t remember everything due to the alcohol. She doesn’t remember who initiated. She admitted that a couple months before sex that made our one night. She said they communicated the next day and agreed it could never happen again. When I asked what they communicated after having sex for the first time she said they didn’t. Really? Communicate that it can’t happen again after kissing, it not sex? Doesn’t sound right. She said it only happens one other time, when I walked in in them. She claims there was never anyone else.

I am having a hard time believing it. I somewhat believe the amount of times. There daughter would stay up late at there house before she went to college, and mine at my house before she left. I am having a hard time believing the timeline. No messages I can look at which she claims is because I asked her to delete all contact with him. That may be true, and maybe I should have looked at her phone before I asked that. I was too pissed to think clearly. Another thing that hit me later was that she called him the next day to ask him what I saw. If you don’t remember, why ask that? She stated she didn’t do that. I verified with his wife, and told her that. She was crying and said she really didn’t know.

One of my demands was she stay in IC. Another was to delete anyone she ever had a relationship or hooked up with from Social Media. I told her I didn’t care if it happened on high school. Deleted. Last night when I couldn’t sleep I saw one guy she dated in high school and she has hung out with for HS reunion type get togethers. I took a screen shot of it and sent it to her. Of course she said it was not intentional and deleted him. Any other time I would believe that. Easy to miss when you’re going through over 1,000 people you follow. I just have not trust in her right now. If that were me I would have gone through that list with a fine tooth comb.

Many here seem to think that I am all in on R. Maybe that's because I am honest when saying I really don't know. I feel many feel I should have filed weeks ago.

Keep in mind that you owe nothing to anyone here. We are all here at our pleasure and give our thoughts because we want to. I leaned on this community a ton in my journey and definitely relate to worrying about what SI folk thought about my choices. But you have to figure out your own path. Just take what you can use and leave the rest. I’m sorry for your personal version of hell, you deserve so much better.

I felt the same…didn’t trust my own intuition and also felt I couldn’t trust but slowly over time my nervous system has started to settle and I DO feel I can trust my WS…but I’m still watching closely.

Empathy is something that will need to be involved if you are either "waiting and seeing" or want to try and work towards R—she must recognize the deep pain she has caused you and on some level you will need to be able to have empathy towards her.

I have a lot of alcoholics in my family- your WS story doesn’t seem that unbelievable to me. That being sad- her alcohol days are OVER and you guys really need to have a full professional disclosure.

We did the online EMS course through affairrecovery…….it was rough, but helpful despite the religious undertones. WE met others who were going through similar and honestly it helped. It also guided my WS through his disclosure, remorse and to do a deep inventory……how we got here/ The other thing that has helped was a podcast called Hope for Healing. Hang in there.

Unthought

I have nothing vested in your marriage per se. I am however sharing and contributing on this site because I have a need to (at least try to) help people dealing with a comparable hell I walked through. Frankly – for me the goal isn’t that you reconcile or that you divorce. The goal is that within a reasonable time you are in a better emotional place and headed for an even better emotional place than you are in right now.

We call it "getting out of infidelity", as opposed to getting divorced or reconciling. The way I view it then those two options – R or D – are simply the paths that can lead you to that better place. The BIG difference between the two paths is that one is more-or-less decided by ONE partner, whereas the other requires that BOTH commit to it. Fortunately for most of us those two paths share (or at least run parallel) the first part of that journey, and IMHO you are still on that first part.

The third option is the one I think too many falls into, and that’s the option I desperately want to save your from. That’s where you continue questioning your wife, doubting her story, wondering if there was more, she keeps insisting she doesn’t know, that it’s over, that she will never drink again and all that... and then 5 years from now you find some form of cohabitation that manages to avoid the stinking and rotting pink elephant in the room. I don’t want to see you telling some newly betrayed husband five years from now to leave because you remained and are more miserable than ever. Either be sharing how you divorced and are content, or reconciled and are content.

You don’t have to decide if you want to R or D. At least not for now. But I do warn you that after a reasonable length of time – and IMHO that´s under six months – it is to your advantage to have chosen one or the other path. Use that time to focus on you and your progress. Don’t remain in infidelity.

--

OK – with that intro here goes...

You can’t punish her for her actions. I know you want to, and she deserves consequences, but frankly the punishment needs to be internal for her. It needs to be her conscience more than anything else. If you divorce – you do so because YOU want to and not as punishment. If you reconcile... you want a wife and to be a husband rather than a slave and you the warden.

I don’t see the issue with her keeping contact with older friends – even male and even those she might have dated. You caught her with one man in a certain situation, not having rampant sex with a plethora of old boyfriends. I might be wondering if you are trying to punish her there...

This does not imply she gets away scot-free. You can be angry, sore, disappointed, lack trust...

Frankly – if she doesn’t experience remorse, regret, shame... to the level beyond what you can imagine... then she’s not reconciliation material. But just like you somehow would need to curb and deal with your need for revenge, punishment and all that then she would have to deal with all her negative emotions IF you two decide to try reconciliation.

You are totally free to decide to divorce, and I strongly encourage you to get as good and realistic view on what that would look like. I can more-or-less promise you a couple of things: It won’t be as bad as you think, and it won’t be as good as you envision. It won’t be you kicking her out of the house and keeping all the savings, and it won’t be you moving into a singles-condo with the plastic picknick cutlery and a microwave. It will be a relatively fair process where you can both probably start working on your new lives. I’m not telling you to divorce, but rather that you accept it’s a realistic option for you. Nothing but YOU are keeping you in the marriage.

I actually think that being aware of how delicate a marriage really is can be the key to maintaining it. Realizing that it’s only two people’s mutual decision that keeps it alive makes you handle it like you might a delicate object you have to carry around. Sort of like if you had a fresh egg in your pocket versus a hard-boiled one.

I have shared this before with you, but reconciliation can only be done from a foundation of truth. I might add that the decision to divorce is best based on that same foundation, or from the concern that truth isn’t available to you.

I think that once you and your wife BOTH realize the importance of truth AND the delicacy of the marriage the importance of being honest and truthful becomes paramount.

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Now – With what I write now I’m not justifying your WW actions but rather trying to understand them...

It’s a known behavior where you take a series of actions and decisions that lead you to a conclusion you never really intended... but in retrospect was clear and obvious.

Most of us do it at some level, but maybe not as extreme as your wife’s actions. Like... we might go to a casino with no intention of wagering any money, only to look and enjoy the environment. Only once there we might be tempted to place one dollar in a slot-machine, then maybe buy chips for twenty... after all what harm can that do? Then the intention of leaving the Blackjack table the minute we are in plus. Before we know it, we are on our way home trying to find an excuse for why the family can’t afford a vacation this year, wondering how our pure intention of NOT wagering went down the drain.

I have also shared on this forum how I one day found myself in a hardware store way off my normal commute from work to home and walked out with a table-saw I had previously decided I didn’t need to buy. It took quite a lot of soul-searching for me to admit that although I convinced myself at the time I did not enter the store to buy that saw the truth was that I did... That decision was probably already made when I sat down in my vehicle to set off for home.

I think your wife might be "true" when she states there was no intention to cheat again. I think it might be "true" that she drank more than usual. But... subconsciously she knew it could happen if she let it. Maybe even the "too much to drink" was done to have the "excuse" to let it happen.

Just like me in the hardware-store... From the moment I took that turn on my daily commute towards the store / from the moment your wife accepted that OM and W visit again, from the moment I entered the store and got the box of self-drilling woodwork screws that was my excuse for being there / the moment you, ww, om and omw sat down in that cellar with the first drinks, the moment I decided to take the longer route to check-out, taking me past the aisle with the power-tools / the moment OM wife went to bed and then you said your good-nights, it was pretty predetermined I would walk out with that table-saw / that OM and WW would hook up.

Friend – I truly think you can reconcile if that’s what you want. I’m not sharing the above to make it any harder or easier. It’s more an attempt to understand what might have been going through her mind. To me the key-issue is accountability. To acknowledge that what she did was intentional and avoidable, and ONLY happened because both she and OM allowed it to happen. Accepting it was a "mistake" or "accident" ... that makes it something that can and might happen again.

I think a key moment for your decision process on R or D is where your wife can fully admit to her actions and the decision process behind them. That’s when she can also deal with the reasons – the underlying issues that made her think she needed an affair to make her life better. Chances are it will boil down to validation and self-worth, things we all need and crave but most find in healthier ways.

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Finally – the alcohol part...

If your wife has a pattern of drinking excessively and doing stupid things while drunk, then yes – she might have issues with alcohol.

My wife’s best friend surprised us some years ago when she shared that she was going to AA. We didn’t know she had issues. Turns out that when she drank – maybe only 2-3 times a year – she would drink to the stage where she lost control of her actions. Every now and then she woke up in the bed of someone other than her husband... Strangely enough they eventually divorced due to his infidelities...

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:01 PM, Thursday, October 3rd]

With all due respect to posters who have alcoholics in their family, I find absolutely no excuse to the adultery from alcohol - unless she was raped - which she admits was not the case.

Alcohol does NOT cause anyone to do something they’d never consider doing while sober. Alcohol merely lowers the inhibitions and fear of getting caught. For the sake of your kids, she absolutely should seek treatment, assuming she is truly an alcoholic, which I’m not sure has even been established in this case….