SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's been a while since posting here. We've been in very serious MC, working very hard at communicating.
So we've been chatting about the a recently. Sometimes it comes up. That is life. Especially if I have triggers Such as not answering the phone to hear he's in a massage. I ask" what massage" he says the corporate environment one.
He comes home and says he was in an awful mood because of my question.
We had a little argument and I said I feel triggered, and I ask- to feel safe. He responded by saying these questions "aren't good for us"
He just wants us to be happy and get the cancer out already.
No more verifications or questions or discussion regarding affair. Because it makes him feel awful and then it ruins the day and brings our relationship a step back.
While writing these lines it feels so absurd.
Like he doesn't get it.
Please help me find the words to explain how this R works.
He IS trying to do the work. He really is.

He comes home and says he was in an awful mood because of my question.

You wouldn't be ASKING questions if he wouldn't have had an A!!!!! HE thinks he is in an awful mood because of a simple question? Let him try living in YOUR head for a while.

YOU can't move on UNTIL the questions gets answered. A lot of the time...the answer to one question brings up another question. It is how our brain processes what our life was REALLY like. HE knew what y'alls M was really like. YOU didn't. Now you are trying to find out...and the BEST way for you to stop asking questions that put HIM in an awful mood is for HIM to answer the questions you ask.

He just wants us to be happy and get the cancer out already.

I would bet that YOU want this too. Only YOU don't know where the cancer IS to get it out!!!

No more verifications or questions or discussion regarding affair. Because it makes him feel awful and then it ruins the day and brings our relationship a step back.

NO. Doing this brings HIM a step back in moving forward from where HE was. NOT doing this will keep you in infidelity HELL .

Please help me find the words to explain how this R works.

I always used ONE word...consequences. We are ALL free to make our choices...but we are NOT free from the consequences of those choices. My H CHOSE to have his A. He then had to face the consequences of his CHOICES. THIS part of R is extremely difficult and personal to each of us. What works for some may not work for others.

In MY case...I needed to know EVERYTHING. My H couldn't understand WHY I was asking questions that weren't relevant. They may not have been relevant to HIM...but they most definitely were relevant to what I needed to know. This was not pretty or easy for either one of us . For ME...my H had told me that he would do ANYTHING I wanted...as long as I allowed him to stay in my life. So when he would get defensive...or try to manipulate or gaslight me...I would simply say "consequences". He KNEW that word meant that I was NOT going to stop going after what I NEEDED. It sometimes helped to de-escalate the situation. Maybe y'all could come up with a word...or phrase...that would let him get out of that defensive mode and more into a helpful mode?

He IS trying to do the work. He really is.

I believe you . R is not for the faint of heart!! If he truly WANTS for it to work...it WILL happen . It's the same with you . My H felt that I was just trying to get answers to certain questions so that I could have a "reason" to leave him. I told him that I already HAD a reason to leave him when he cheated!!! I felt that my H was trying to keep details from me because he didn't want reality to ruin his good memories of his A. My H told me he had NO good memories. To HIM...it was just like a person who got drunk and had a GREAT time at a party...only to drive drunk and kill someone. He KILLED our M by getting drunk on dopamine...there was NOTHING good about the A after that.

If y'all BOTH want to have R...y'all will find your way of navigating through what you both need . Just like anything that is worth working toward...there will be missteps...and great challenges. But in the end...I have to say...it will be WORTH IT!! It feels soooooooo GOOD to be on the other side !!!

This is Empathy 101. You can bet your ass that if the shoe was on the other foot and you weren't available to answer his call because you were getting a massage, he'd have some questions about that. He created this dynamic between you where his actions are subject to scrutiny. That's the result of HIS actions. And yeah, it's been a while now since the adultery, but new boundaries aren't a temporary thing. If he's uncomfortable with keeping you in the loop, maybe R isn't for him. Accountability after adultery is the new norm.

He's wrong when he says "these questions aren't good for us". Communication is GOOD for you. Even checking is good for you because when you check and he's doing his thing, it's trust in the bucket. When you check and he's defensive, it's the opposite. Asking a question isn't an indictment on his character. His reaction though very well might be.

Zero transference of vigilance.

He doesn't get it.

What's worse is he is DARVO'ing you when you are triggered. Saying you getting upset sets you back when it's his affair that caused you to be triggered. He Denies there is a problem, Attacks you for asking the question, then Reverses the Victim and Offender.

This is beyond not getting it. It is beyond a haphazard well intended effort. It is rugsweeping combined with ongoing emotional abuse.

I don't understand how I can agree with every word written here, and see what he really is, but then when confronting him its not so black and white, and he'll say the right thing because he's charming and extremely intelligent and affectionate.

In MC we have done a lot of work finding our issues.
He was 'diagnosed' with controlling behavior, with narcissistic tendance (slipped mc tongue once-woops)

We have tapped into his extreme need for affection and exterior empowerment to fill him.
She described it as a circus animal, instead of getting a carrot after every 5th trick he received a carrot EVERY time from his parents.
Creating this dependancy on constant carrots.
No carrots feel like rejection to him. What a horrible place to be, feeling so empty so often.
Honestly, I feel sorry for him.
Explains a lot about the affair, getting the carrot wherever he can. Some lady admires him and bamm his head is spinning.
I understand Im married to a man that I have a lot of power over how he feels.
He is weak.

Ok I have gone of topic here. Or maybe not.
It feels that MC, and a recovery are parallel to each other, not really meeting in therapy. Whilst a lot of work has been done regarding our current marriage. No talk has been done about the growth (affair) that has been hanging from our marital legs making us trip over once in a while.

Another thing- he keeps talking about trust, or lack of trust in our marriage. That we can't be happy until I trust him.
That at almost 4 years pdday trust should be fully established.
But I still slightly worry every time he goes out at night to whatever function, work party work vacation or whatnot. Yes I worry, and I ask about it. I ask who he's with. I don't make a fuss. But it still implies That Im asking because im worried.

He's still sounds Waywardish. Insufficient empathy. All about him. I hope he's in IC. I hope you are too!

All the best!

[This message edited by HardKnocks at 4:34 PM, October 25th (Tuesday)]

Trust is NEVER fully established. Never.

He slipped the tongue to the MC? He kissed her? Am I reading that right?

Toughlove1. This scenario sounds awfully like the situation I have been facing in attempting to obtain from my WW the pertinent information necessary for my healing, hopefully a Reconciliation and ultimately forgiveness for her oherwise unforgivable year long affair, The affair occurred Fifty years ago, but was only recently confessed to, although I had some suspicious at the time that my wife was having sex with somebody else. The emotional and physical remoteness, the unavailability for sex for lengthy periods, her constant denigration and criticism, her " working late in the ER" at the hospital where she wss employed should have been surefire evidence, but I was invested in loving and trusting her. I discounted what my gut was telling me. And now like in your situation, my wife wants my pain and anguish to just evaporate in a puff of air, well it's not so easy as that and although it happened a long time ago, it still hurts like hell.
I have told her that the trickle of truth has to become a gusher if there's to be any Reconciliation, and not a divorce.

IME, trust is never what it was again. If he doesn't like that, he should hop into his time machine, go back to the past, and not cheat on you.

I can't speak for everyone here and I won't act like it didn't grieve me, but in hindsight, my blind trust was naive at best and stupid at worst. I had red flags waiving like it was downtown Beijing and I still trusted him. These days, my trust isn't blind. These days, people need to earn it, and people who scoff at my boundaries aren't going to lounging be in my trust tree.

There's a new normal after infidelity. If he's bucking that, I'd be wondering what his reasons are. The more defensive he is, the more likely there's something to defend. How sure are you that he was where he said he was?

I still slightly worry every time he goes out at night to whatever function, work party work vacation or whatnot.

Why is he socializing without you?

He slipped the MC the tongue??

Well that would be the end of the road for me.

You worry about what he’s doing b/c YOUR GUT is telling you what he is doing. Something he’s not supposed to be doing b/c his behavior is just selfish and he is all about himself.

I hope you see him Continuing to go out to events without you is him providing opportunities for him to cheat. Why does he do all these things alone? Why can’t he refuse some of these invitations?

My H was out at night at dinners & events etc. after his affair, he declined almost all invitations or was gone as soon as dinner was over. No drinks after. No clubs or bars until all hours.

And his career did NOT suffer because of it.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:41 AM, Wednesday, October 26th]

Pretty sure Tl1 meant "narcissistic tendency" slipped from the MC's tongue.

Have you hit up the standard recommendations here? "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from You Affair" by Linda MacDonald is key. I also recommend "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring for another book on what earned forgiveness looks like.

Narcissists can be smart, charming, and good at argument. Doesn't make them right.

Lol, He didn't slip the tongue with MC, the MC slipped a comment regarding his narcissism.

Regarding events, for a while he didn't go to the work events.
But has been going again for 2 years.
His work place provide these amazing offsites abroad, parties, concerts. Spouses are not invited.
It makes me so uncomfortable every time, I wish he wouldn't go. But I can't ask him not to because I don't want him to miss out on these amazing opportunities. I want him to have fun. He works hard, and has achieved a position at this amazing company.
I do know this is a corporate company that has very strict rules in place regarding conduct with fellow employees. Any complaint and your out. So I guess I feel semi safe when he is within those functions.

But it pisses me off every time he goes. They have drinks and party. Is there really no sexual tension there?!
Would you really withold your ws to go to these very very awesome work events? How many years out?. I don't know. Maybe the answer is what ever Im comfortable with ..

Spouses aren't invited? And he showed you the invite with no plus ones allowed?

He just wants us to be happy and get the cancer out already.

^Those are words.

No more verifications or questions or discussion regarding affair. Because it makes him feel awful and then it ruins the day and brings our relationship a step back.

^Those are actions.

And actions speak louder than words.

****

I don't know and can't know your partner's motivations. But if he wants you to reconcile with him then he needs to learn to open up completely, take responsibility for the damage he caused and work hard to heal the wounds.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 1:37 PM, Wednesday, October 26th]

Ive seen the invites, no spouses.

We had a really good talk just now.
My conclusions are that no one can really change. You must always live while checking your lane.
Excuse the dramatic example I gave him, ( it hits close to home for us) just like you cannot put the Holocaust behind you, you need to remember the little signs that led to it, in order for it not to happen again.
You cannot delete the memory of the affair. It needs to loom to be a warning sign of inappropriate conduct.
Heck he just had a very inappropriate situations cpl months back. A mutual lady friend started hanging out at our home, working together in our living room instead of working from home alone. Texting him about her crumbling marriage. Until I noticed body language between them that showed me that there was sexual tension.
How these situations creep in on you, and you don't see it coming.
How intimate conversation turn into feelings and eventually actions. You have to always keep yourself in check. No matter what supposed changes you've made in your heart.

He has completely cut that relationship, although its tricky, because we see her in our circle of friends almost every other day.
I drilled his brain about her. He is very uncomfortable around her now. As it should be. She is dangerous to him.

But it pisses me off every time he goes. They have drinks and party. Is there really no sexual tension there?!

This is just selfish on his part. He does not have to go to every one of these events if it upsets you.

That is the key piece you are missing. He does attend and you are suffering. If he had half a brain he would understand that he needs to put your feelings first. And that should have meant that he doesn’t attend these events if you are struggling. OR he attends in a limited basis and not every single one.

It sounds to me like your H has a very nice social life. Where he gets to be "single".

At your expense. As the MC pointed out — he’s very self centered. And your healing is not his priority. Nor is your marriage IMO.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:47 AM, Wednesday, October 26th]

Would you really withold your ws to go to these very very awesome work events? How many years out?. I don't know.

Yes. I most certainly would and indefinitely. There's a new normal after infidelity.

It is rude for whatever company he works for to intrude on personal relationships like this by excluding spouses. They are encouraging an atmosphere which threatens professional boundaries and then pours alcohol on it. This should be a no-brainer from a remorseful guy who empathizes with your feelings. Instead, he treated you to another installment of the "What About Me?" show. Defensiveness means something. It doesn't just happen for no reason. Maybe he's cheating again. Maybe he's still got some entitlement, who knows? But whatever it is, it's blocking empathy, and empathy isn't anything more than walking that proverbial mile in the other guys shoes.

Think about it... if the shoe were on the other foot, do you really think he'd be okay with you drinking and going to social events or going MIA and getting massages while he sits at home wondering? And then to have the audacity to proclaim that he, who demonstrably LACKS functional empathy should be the arbiter of "what's good for us"??

I know it doesn't seem like a big deal from where your observation point, but as you can see, when it's written down in black and white, it's rather troubling.

I asked him how he would have felt if roles were reversed. He really has a very hard time to understand my pain. Its quite astonishing how someone who chronically lacks empathy truly struggles to put himself in my shoes.
Sometimes I wish I could fake cheat just so he knows how it feels.
He has expressed to me many times he really doesn't understand the pain. He imagined anger. But not the pain.