SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You mention MC. Has he done any IC? How did that go?

People can and do change, but it takes work to change oneself. What work has he done?

From what you write, readers see a number of red flags. Do you think they're permanent, or do you think they're flying because your H will be doing more work on himself? Recovery takes 2-5 years; R requires more work, so it seems to take longer. AT least that's my impression from frequent mentions by BSes in R that they must be on the slow route to R.

If you think your H won't change, why stay with him?

He has expressed to me many times he really doesn't understand the pain. He imagined anger. But not the pain.

I'd say that's definitive proof that he's got more work to do, which begs the question of 'who does he think he is to issue diktats about what's good for you?'.

I find that my FWH and BFF, a reformed WW, have a hard time understanding the trauma, because they feel like absolute shit about themselves for having the affair. Or maybe I'm naive about that. Not excusing their lack of understanding, at all. But, for the longest time, my FWH used to say....that we'd be ok, he'd be ok, when I was ok.....co-dependent much? They both just want me to feel better. Mostly I'm about 80% there. Do I still occasionally have doubts - yes. Can I watch him 24/7 - no. Nor do I really want to anymore. If he goes down that path again, there is a special place in hell for him. I hate that part of our lives.
Our MC told FWH to re-frame my pain as grieving the love I had/have for him. If this didn't bother you, did you really love him? Of course you're in pain. (I'm mentally saying - dumbass)

Zero transference of vigilance......this was a big thing for me. When FWH got that HE had to be the one to help what he called proving a negative....proving to me when I didn't trust him....that I should be able to trust him. I needed him to be vigilant for us for me. I can't drive that car. He has to.

And, no, trust is definitely never been the same. There is trust there. We have built trust from other trustworthy things. But, blind trust is gone.

Recently, I find myself mourning that idea of what I thought our relationship was. The fairytale of it. I know that there was a time before I met him that I was happy, I could be happy. You don't want to acknowledge that there may be a time in your life without your spouse. After all....there were rings and promises. I'm now mostly in it day by day.....as someone else often quotes dread pirate Roberts......something about you did great today, but I'll most likely divorce you in the morning. That's an extreme version of it. But, we try to find ways to show each other that we're together, still working, every day.

Toughlove1

Note what Hellfire said about trust in her post on page 1.

Also - I sent you a PM with some info you may find useful.

This is Empathy 101.

This IS empathy 101 - and unfortunately it sounds like your WS lacks some of that. So does mine. He admits it. It is hard for him. He comes from the polar opposite of empathetic stock, so he didn't learn what it was because it didn't exist in his world. Empathy in his childhood home was for whiners. He knows all of this now - he gets that he is missing the empathy chip that is second nature to many of us, and he struggles mightily with being empathetic because it is not second nature to him. He has to stop himself and think, as even after 3+ years of work, his gut reaction to things is to get defensive, to close up, and to want to run from it. It's not that he does not have any ability to empathize - it is more that he is still very selfish, and it takes active effort on his part to quell that gut reaction to self-soothe and self-protect over all others. The difference now is that he recognizes that, so he comes back to Earth rather quickly. But, I have no doubt he loves himself more than he loves me (and if I admit it - in that way now we are alike in that regard).

My WH too wanted/wants 100% trust. But the consequence of his actions is that I will likely never 100% trust anyone, and I have told him so. There is little he (or I) can do about that, and in all honestly, I'm not sure I even want to 100% trust anyone anymore anyway. I have told him countless times that if he wants 100% trust from me, he may as well delete my number (we date - we are not actively in R - but the lesson is the same). I will ask what I want when I want, and much like I need to accept his reactions he must also accept mine. No one can control the outcome. Your WH either needs to accept that this is what you need (and that his willful answers will likely make the questions come less frequently because his answers COMFORT you AND help build TRUST whereas his arguing and complaining does the opposite, rending more questions instead of less).

It's a very bumpy ride.

He has expressed to me many times he really doesn't understand the pain. He imagined anger. But not the pain.

I went through and still go through this. I did not/ do not fully understand the pain. I've always avoided feelings and this festers inside and ultimately comes out as anger. I would suggest he reads books on emotional intelligence. I'm struggling with this in a bit way and know it is a big hurdle I need to overcome before I am R material.

Thank you for letting me rant here. I have no one else to run my thoughts through.

I just had a huge blowup with wh.
He went to a drinking race this morning, where you run 21k and drink wine and party the whole time I'm totally cool with him having a good time. He has many hobbies and many friends.
I'm Not one to tell him not to go, I would like him to practice being reasonable. He is known to be axcessive at almost everything. The amount he eats, the amount he plays, he likes to live life at fullest.

I was deeply bothered all morning, he left at 5:30 am, leaving me to get kids out the door, and I was home with baby till he returned.
I tried to search deep in myself why im mad. I don't want to be mad every time he leaves. I don't want to be that wife.

I expressed to him that maybe this was one too many outings this month. He had a work party/concert on Tuesday leaving me with kids and returned after 1 am. He blew up saying how is he supposed to know how ide feel. That he'd love me to join, but sadly these events aren't suited for me or no plus 1.
He was so mad, saying he wants to go out 4-6 times a month. With or without me, and started slamming cabinets..
Mad that I don't tell him not to go. I'm not going to mommy him. I want him to be reasonable as I am. I don't leave him many hours with kids for gym or whatever to not burden him. He doesn't know what burdens me.
I guess what really bothers me is that he's mad at me instead of seeing why it hurts me that he doesn't see me or is considerate.

His defensive reaction just blew my temper. And I might have slipped a FU in front of kids. Not my proudest moments.

How can other people know what you want without your telling them? None of us is a mind-reader.

It looks like your H is immune to your non-verbal communications. What keeps you from, therefore, making your desires known explicitly, with words? What keeps you in a relationship in which your partner keeps misinterpreting your non-verbals? Those are questions only you can answer.

While I agree with Sisoon that nobody has a crystal ball, I don't think your WH needs one to appreciate what he has at home. You and your children aren't some kind of burden to be escaped. He spends his off time partying like a bachelor, meanwhile he is missing these growing years. Sure, for the sake of R, be explicit in what you need, but if this guy doesn't want to be there, recognize it for what it really means and plan accordingly,

Empathy is not hard. It's nothing more than walking a mile in the other guy's shoes. No exceptional imagination is required. He just doesn't want to do it because it doesn't serve his agenda. He wants everything; wife appliance, little droids, the facade of normalcy, and an exciting social life, and that's not beyond understandable. Most people feel like they work hard and deserve good things. What's harder to understand is why he thinks you deserve less. You got a cheating man who demonstratively prefers to spend his off time with anybody else but the ones he claims are most important to him.

Just as a view from the way further out machine, children grow. It's like somebody came into my house and stole my babies. All I have are pictures and memories. My babies, my toddlers, my kindergartners, my preteens, my teenagers... all gone, stolen by TIME. Your WH is missing it. He's choosing to miss it. Drinking with coworkers is more important. This is tragic on its own. Add in the complete disregard for the damage and trauma he's caused you with his adultery and his continued disregard for your feelings and I don't know how you'll go the distance. There's a better than average probability that he'll eventually flake again because he has not done the work.

I think you'd be wise to start getting your ducks in a row. A cheater who's slamming the cabinet doors because he wants to go out and play single isn't the most trustworthy bet for a secure future.

Do you get to do what you want at a similar frequency and duration? Sounds like no.

What do you want to do that makes you feel joy just for you?

So here's the thing, He claims he'll be more than happy for me to go out at and have a great time.
I too enjoy my hobbies and socializing.
An example is everytime time we each take time to work out. When I go out to gym he'll keep texting me when are you home, or anytime I leave him with the kids I know there's a limit to how long he can keep down the fort.
He works out twice a day , and hour run and then an hour+ weights. Sometimes he'll do part of it at night. I wouldn't dream now to go out for 2 + hours.
Its less if what we let each other do, but more what we allow ourselves. I allow myself much less.
My baby still needs me at night, I can't go out partying till 2 am.

I get what you guys are saying about stating my needs.
I still don't feel like I need to tell him to not go to work parties. He'll end up resenting me.
So I guess im left resenting him.

Our MC teaches us not to tell the other person to change, or expect them to change because its controlling.
We can only talk about ourselves. How we feel and what WE can do.

Its a contrast to what a WS is expected to do.

I feel that fundamentals of MC and R don't really go hand in hand. Because in MC you are equals, and can't do the work if D is in questions.
That being said;
We have benefitted greatly from MC.

When I go out to gym he'll keep texting me when are you home, or anytime I leave him with the kids I know there's a limit to how long he can keep down the fort.

Yup, the old incompetence defense. Somehow you manage to figure these things out but he just can't wing it on his own. I know that one well. Apparently, I'm the only person in my household that can SEE when a floor needs mopped of a toilet bowl scrubbed.

Here's the thing... I don't think either one of you are really putting the shoe on the other foot. This guy has a "rules for thee but not for me" thing going on which you both appear to be tacitly agreeing upon under the guise of equal treatment. The treatment is demonstratively NOT equal though and you both know it. ========>>>

He works out twice a day , and hour run and then an hour+ weights. Sometimes he'll do part of it at night. I wouldn't dream now to go out for 2 + hours.

Do you honestly think your baby would get the same great care you provide if YOU were working out two hours a day while he was at home? How about while you're out drinking in mixed company and not just with your girls? How about after you'd had an affair?

Our MC teaches us not to tell the other person to change, or expect them to change because its controlling.
We can only talk about ourselves. How we feel and what WE can do.

I'd get a new MC because your WH absolutely MUST change. He is an unrepentant cheater whose moral ambiguity allows him to treat you like an employee while he lives life to its fullest. For right now, keeping his dick in his pants is part of your pay package, but what change has he made internally which remediates his poor character? Slamming cabinet doors and participating in unspoken double standards tells us he's had none. Without real and meaningful change, he will flake again, and most likely after he's used up way too much of your youth and vigor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discouraging R. I'm in R myself. But if you read my profile, I have done the rugweep thing and I've seen where it leads. Your WH has to change and your relationship with him has to become absolutely equal and reciprocal. Right now, you're trying so hard to be okay with accepting half a loaf that you're literally bargaining with the idea that if somebody has to build resentments, it might as well be you. That's bargaining with your grief instead of dealing with the source of it.

I'm not saying give up. My advice is to get a new MC who understands infidelity and go back to the drawing board. The change you need to see from him is much more than his feeble agreement to not fuck other people, and honestly, that's what so many cheaters (and uninitiated MC's) seem to believe is good enough. This guy needs to start with REAL EMPATHY and then lean into core values and boundaries.

Successfully reformed WS's change because they can't stand being the guy/gal staring back at them from the mirror. They might start by wanting to save the marriage but they end with wanting to save themselves. You can't fix anybody else. HE has to do it. Your job is to insist on getting the partner you deserve, and if you get it done right this time, there won't be a next time.

You are equals in MC if you are both honest dealers.

If MC doesn't believe in personal growth and change, MC is asking you to accept that your husband is a selfish cheat.

To R, the WS must change, but R is not necessary. D can be the best way to heal after d-day. More important, you can't make your WS change - but you can ask for the changes you want.

You can also set requirements, as in 'If you, WS, continue to do/not do ____, I will choose D.' If your MC won't support that, you definitely need a new MC.

That's one of the reasons IC is pretty much necessary after d-day. MCs treat the M, but the M didn't fail. ICs treat the person insofar as the person wants to change. Does you H want to change? My guess is that he doesn't, but that would leave you in an M you don't like.

If you can't set requirements, a good IC can help you. That might cause you to end your M, but I think you and your kids will probably be better off if you're not carrying around the weight of being in an M you are unhappy in.

My reco is to require what you require and ask for what you want but don't require. There are a lot of things my W & I do that the other doesn't like, we we tolerate those things. I didn't tolerate much bullshit over her A - and our MC didn't, either.

*****

IMO, R has to be between equals. You both have to be able and willing to raise issues. You both have to be willing to work to resolve issues. You both have to give enough of what the other want to make the other want to stick around and keep giving.

For example, my W has to accept my long bike rides. I have to accept that she has her hobbies that take time away from me. If we had young kids, I'd have to participate - and I would hope she wouldn't tolerate my texting her, except in an emergency, during her chorus practices and her rehearsals.

You seem to be accepting more responsibility for child care than you're happy with. That's a big issue between you and your H. You're unhappy with the time he takes away from home. That's a big issue.

R is a process of building an M that serves you both. How does your M serve you? Is that really enough for you?

*****

I do my best in R not to take any crap from my W; she does her best not to give me any. I do my best in R not to give any crap to my W; she does her best not to take any. If we've done that right - if we haven't suppressed any anger - I won't JFO again. If we have unwittingly suppressed anger, maybe I will be, or maybe my W and I will become madhatters.

I think we'll be OK because I believe we address the issues between us. No rug-sweeping about much of anything.

You're accepting a subordinate position in your M. That would be OK if that's what you want, but you don't.

For your sake, please raise these issues now. Set your requirements. Ask for what you want. Walk away if your H won't step up to create an M that serves you both well.

True, you can't expect your H to change. It's also true that he can't expect you to stick around if he doesn't.

But I can't ask him not to because I don't want him to miss out on these amazing opportunities. I want him to have fun.

I'm totally cool with him having a good time.

I'm Not one to tell him not to go........

I don't want to be that wife.

Careful Toughlove. Playing the "cool wife" is building your own trap. This is a dynamic I know all too well. Bear with me while I go off on this a bit, we'll get back around to your sitch I promise ---- My H travels all over the world A LOT for business, so my "cool wife" routine was me doing most of the adulting (including just about everything involved in raising D) for our household because when he was at home he was "so tired" because he "works so hard." Never mind that I was working full time while doing all that adulting and child rearing. I do admit in the early years of our marriage (before the kid and home ownership) being the "cool wife" seemed the easiest route to avoid conflict. Or so I told myself - in hindsight I gradually built my own trap by always being "cool" with whatever our marriage threw at me. In the early days that wasn't so hard. We had a reciprocal relationship and had lots of fun together. I got to do some traveling with him. Cool right?

Then real life unfolded. We had a child. We bought a house. I completed graduate school and subsequently took on a full time job with medical and retirement benefits for our family. As the years went by I stopped suggesting date nights, or inviting him to friend and family events because he never wanted to go. 'Cause he just wanted to hang out at home and do his own hobbies away from home after being gone for weeks at a time. Who could blame him? Not me. I put on a brave face and convinced myself and everyone around me that I was cool with his choices. We devolved into living separate lives. Being all "cool" and not "bonded at the hip" meant I had lots of freedom to do what I wanted -within the parameters of working full time and raising a child. Which was some consolation. And, at least he was emotionally invested in our family and home, even if he wasn't so invested in spending quality time with me. Until he wasn't.

A couple of years before the A he withdrew completely from family life. Withdrew from me. He never wanted to do ANYTHING when off the road but sit on the couch, watch TV and play video games. He spent more and more time in his man cave. And I went along with it. Because I kept telling myself I was cool with it. Spoiler: I wasn't cool with it. I too told myself I didn't want to be "that wife" - you know, the type that actually demands reciprocity in a marriage. Separate lives made it easy for him to carry on the A right under my nose. You want to go fishing alone (!) for four days? Cool. Have fun. You work so hard - you deserve it. While I made MY needs smaller and smaller. While I still took care of the family trip planning and adulting, and I continued doing little kindnesses that kept his life running smoothly. Which in an ass backwards way gave him permission to not see me. Or respect me. He stopped acknowledging my birthday and our anniversary - beyond cursory "happy ______" wishes. And I kept telling myself I was cool with it. And hiding behind the "cool wife" persona helped me ignore my burgeoning resentment. Because if I really acknowledged that resentment I'd have to do something about it.

The A was the last straw. Okay, you don't want to be married? Bye-bye. Those last few years weren't much of a marriage anyway. Surprise, he didn't want to leave the marriage. But I sure didn't want that crumby old marriage back. "Cool wife" was retiring. He broke the marital compact so all the unwritten agreements that served him were null and void. We had to create a new marriage and he had to be ALL IN or I was out of there. 4 years later here we are. After grappling with reconciliation, he gets it. The trust will NEVER be the same, but our marriage is once again reciprocal and much improved.

Toughlove, you have just the opposite type of H - yours wants to go out and party way too much while mine wanted to retreat to his man cave when he wasn't out traveling the world. But, the outcome was the same. Separate lives that functioned for THEM because we were willing to be the cool wife - the cool wife that enabled their enjoyment of that separate life by holding the home/family life together. We made it easy for them to disregard us by not setting BOUNDARIES around how we're willing to be treated. Here's the thing - with boundaries come consequences if those boundaries are pushed. I feel like your H hasn't had many consequences for his behaviors. If I understand correctly after the A you jumped directly into MC (fallacy of unmet needs MC?)and reached immediately for reconciliation? Looking at your timeline, covid must have influenced the reconciliation - he's a techie so I'm guessing he probably worked from home and most trips/socializing were suspended. Which may have propped up reconciliation. The outside world is again his priority. And, this may sound harsh - keeping you in the role of cool wife seems to work for him. Hence the cupboard banging and DARVO when you suggested that just maybe he could spend some more time with his family.

I like Sisoon's suggestion "My reco is to require what you require and ask for what you want but don't require." And, agree that the approach your MC is using doesn't seem to be working - at least for you. He MUST change - "remediate his poor character" or you'll most likely find yourself suffering through another D-day. Hang up your cool wife persona and start requiring what you require and asking for what you want! Time to start setting those boundaries. Reciprocity doesn't mean he has to be chained to the house. We all need me time away from home. But come on. Working out two hours a day? On top of work parties, hobbies etc.? This doesn't feel right.

He's had four years of your precious gift of reconciliation. What has he done with it? I read your other threads. I'm sorry to say he doesn't seem ALL IN to recreate the marriage.Post covid he jumped right back into living his separate party/travel life. He strikes up inappropriate friendships with OW. He DARVOs the heck out of you when you express your needs. If he doesn't want to step up for you AND the kids by giving your family his attention/time, maybe it's time to line up those ducks and consider a truly separate life for YOU. Please don't let fears that he will resent YOU for setting boundaries feed your continued resentment of him. Take it from a reformed cool wife. Eating your resentment and burying conflict is not cool for you - or the marriage. It's okay to expect respect and reciprocity from our partners. IC just for you could help sort through WHY you feel compelled to swallow your own needs rather than demand and give mutually nurturing respect within the marriage. I'm not saying give up on R. That's your choice. But somethings got to shift in his side of R for you to at least feel safe. For lack of a better word, the needed shift is he must CHANGE. And he has to want that change. You can't nice him into it. Hugs to you and your kids Toughlove.

(edited for clarity :-)

[This message edited by BoundaryBuilder at 7:01 PM, Tuesday, November 8th]

He is NOT really trying. You have to be able to ask questions and talk about things together if you are going forward with your relationship. My husband was similar by getting upset every time I brought up the infidelities and asked questions. I told him we had no future together if he could not fully own up to the fact that it was him, not me, who didn't feel loved, and it was him who was considering divorce so many years ago. He used these excuses to justify his actions for the affair. He was a serial cheater for 27 years and I feel so stupid for not hashing things out 32 years ago. Fast forward, we have been married for 52 years; however, I stopped loving him as a husband back in 1990 when he had an affair. He said he did not love the other person and all his cheating was just about sex. Had we gotten everything out in the open in 1990, I would have divorced him. He only thought of himself and his needs. He never once considered my health (he did not use protection) nor did he consider my feelings. You need to wake up NOW. You deserve to know the facts no matter how painful, and he needs to change. My husband finally owned up to everything, but he is nothing more than a legal companion with whom I share many common interests. Now, I come first although I'm long overdue for that. He says he will spend the rest of his life trying to make up for all the pain he has caused me. I told him that infinity is not long enough for that. I hope you can sit down with him and make him realize your needs. Maybe counseling can help you, but you need to really talk to each other and air your feelings.