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ChamolmileTea, thank you for your response re. Shame and WS’s potential to process information at this time. I find this particularly helpful in shaping any possible understanding of what he’s feeling. I will say to the rest of the respondents to my post? Finding a "better" attorney as of tomorrow. I’ve not yet had my consultation with the first, but even based on our preliminary phone conversation? And taking into deep consideration the urgency with you’ve all voiced your opinions? Calling on a more sophisticated firm tomorrow. Thanks all. Deep appreciation.

I wrote about shame.

If you drive while drunk and murder someone in a car wreck, the worst thing to do is sit in your car, bemoaning your fate, too scared to leave the car because you might get yelled out or a DUI. You need to shut off the shame in the heat of that moment, get your ass out the car, and resuscitate the people still living. It’s just the right thing to do, because it is not about you when you killed someone. It’s about fixing what you can. Now. Regardless of your feelings.

When he’s feeling shame, it’s about him, not you. He needs to be focused on resuscitating YOU, not on his feelings of shame.

Shame is about him. And wasn’t his affair all about him? That needs to stop. It’s not about him anymore.

Bear in mind too that you might just have the tip of the iceberg here. He's had quite a lot of time while you two were living apart to operate unmolested in terms of you being on hand to catch him out. I can imagine a scenario in which the avoidance you're seeing is him sitting on that information and knowing that you're not going to stop asking questions about it.

One noteworthy tactic is sort of a twist on truth amnesty that I've seen our friend and mod, Sisoon, recommend. Basically, you stop short of offering a full amnesty because you really don't know what you might hear and whether it will be a deal-breaker. Instead, you say something on the order of.. "I really don't know what the future might bring, but I do know that you need to be 100% honest with me right now for even a chance of saving this marriage. I'm not going to put myself through dozens of trickled out revelations and all the pain that something like that will entail. So, tell me everything now and know that if I find out later you've left anything out, I will consider that as trifling and treat it and you accordingly."

It's worth a try. Maybe 50/50 on getting the majority of the truth. Not great odds, but better than nothing.

My first impression is wow I think you're stronger than you know.

You might not know the full damage yet. Mine wanted to hide from me too. I still don't know everything. Agree with everyone to protect yourself financially. Proceed with extreme caution.

I agree that you are much stronger than you know. Once you get you, your kids and your finances protected from his hideous choices, then you can worry about if and how you might want to reconcile. But definitely first order of business is to pull up the drawbridge and fill the moat with alligators.

I'm trying like mad to hold myself together and waiting for our new health insurance following spouse's 90 day probationary period to kick

What is your health coverage situation right now? Anything can happen to you or your kids at any time. The last thing you need now (or any time really) is a medical emergency. Can either of you get COBRA?, if so, do it now;

Shame vs Guilt

The comments made regarding his shame are spot on.

Shame and guilt are two very different emotions with different outcomes.

Guilt is a feeling you get when you did something wrong. Guilt can be healthy because it allows us to identify and correct problematic behaviors. Shame, on the other hand, finds a problem with the person, the whole person, rather than the behavior and contributing factors that lead to that behavior.

Shame is a feeling that your whole self, your whole being, is just wrong. Shame is a focus on self. Guilt is a focus on the behavior and the awareness that our actions have injured someone else. In other words, shame relates to self; guilt to others.

When shame reaches toxic levels, it’s not only completely debilitating, it’s destructive, to self and others.

Shame disables the WS from taking responsibility for their actions, from focusing on and prioritizing the victims (as 3yrsout poignantly pointed out in the car accident analogy), from objectively evaluating themselves, from developing and executing a reasonable and comprehensive plan for self improvement, care of injured parties and reconciliation.

Until he gets his shit together, you’ve got nothing to work with.

Until he starts paddling, protect yourself from this drowning man or he’ll pull you down.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 1:53 AM, Thursday, July 14th]

Ok. I’ve done most of what has been recommended. Lawyer and bank have both been dealt with. I am trying to work through Verizon wireless to monitor his cell records, but have had no success. Just want to track #s for incoming/outgoing calls. But I’ve had no luck. I’m a joint account manager, but still no luck. Set up Verizon Smart Family at their suggestion, but see no way to do this here. Am I missing something? Don’t want to alert him, and have cover re. "I’m setting up ways to monitor kids." But….

I found it all. Everything. Name and all. They’re still communicating.

Sorry to read this but not surprised. So your WH loses his job due to an A, putting the financial security of his W and children at risk, swears the A ended when he was fired, but still continues contact with his AP months later. I wish this was not such a common occurrence. Your WH has his head so far up his ass he is not a candidate for R. Continue to take firm steps to protect yourself financially. Take care of your health and be there for your children. Do whatever you can do, still being smart, to get the separation going. Get real life support from friends and family.

I hope this sad revelation gives you some clarity. Good luck.

[This message edited by fareast at 8:38 PM, July 15th (Friday)]

I am so sorry, BY. This is a brutal, cruel thing you are experiencing, and so very unfair. You will make it through, though. Take care of yourself.

Mine took it underground too.

Right away he said it was already over. This became I'm ending it and then the messaging and talking continued with some meetups that I figured out. Three years later the texting and video calls were still happening.

Don't believe a word. He's going to say whatever and expect you to believe it. He's used to you trusting him while he does and says whatever.

I am so glad you found out he is a liar now rather than later. Why do they think they can carry this sh!t off? He so seriously underestimates you.

I am so glad you found out he is a liar now rather than later.

Yes, now you can make a clean break, which is better than when the lying and gaslighting continue for years, and more of your life gets wasted. What an absolute POS for abandoning you and the kids.

Hey Born-

I hope you are hanging in there. Did anything happen over the weekend? Did you let him know what you know?

I'm sorry that you are having to deal with this - really I am. Unfortunately oftentimes the WS has to reach rock bottom before they are willing to work through things. Oftentimes by the time they reach that point, if ever, the BS has had enough and doesn't want them back in any capacity. No one knows what will happen so you have to work on controlling the things you can - which all relate to you and your actions. It sounds like you are moving in the right direction for making yourself Plan A. It still is soul crushing...all I can tell you is even after all the gory details of my WS's A and false R and the rest, I feel fine now. Better than fine. Life is still hard but the hurt and misery from that betrayal just doesn't have the sting it used to. Every once in awhile it will catch me off guard - someone will say something or I will be reminded of something and the betrayal will sting me again - but it doesn't last now. It's more like a quick pinch instead of a gutting.

This too shall pass. I promise.

I know you are devastated (yet again) but at least you know the truth. I’d rather know the truth than keep living in dysfunction and lies.

I hope you are getting to the mad stage. Because that is where you get the strength to do what needs to get done. And it seems like you have addressed some things already.

BadMammaJamma, funny you should ask. Yup. They found out I knew. I jumped onto her Instagram account and posted public comments only he and she would’ve panicked about (I tried hard to make them biting, but only privately so.) Took me for dang ever, actually. She called him and he in turn called me. I started off rather obtuse…"how’s your day going, dear? Such a happy surprise to hear your voice!" I could only keep it up for so long before I told him how hurt and humiliated I was that he’d once again lied to me. And brought this woman into our lives….a woman he can find time to chat with but can’t find the same for his wife and kids. I hung up in disgust. They’re still talking by phone three days later. Starting to wonder if I shouldn’t check in with her hubs the way she continuously checks in with mine? My husband damn it…while she still posts Insta photos with her big-wig exec hubs (I mean we’re talking 4-homes, 3 highly exclusive private clubs kind of income). I can’t help but wonder, does he know? Does he care?

Born, TELL HER HUSBAND! Send him proof, too! No way should you sit on this information. Blow her world completely apart right now.

As for you, clear out every penny from joint accounts, cancel ALL joint credit cards, take him off any of the credit cards as a joint user and change beneficiaries on all life insurance asap! Get a lock on your credit asap. Hit fast and hard.

Glad to hear from you Born. Wow it sounds like OW is living the high life, but it goes to show that money can't buy class or ethics. That lady is T-R-A-S-H. With that being said you need to absolutely, 100%, without a doubt inform the OBS (other betrayed spouse). She obviously has no problem betraying him and it sounds like he has a lot to lose. Please give this man the gift of agency. In addition to it just being the right thing to do, NOTHING throws cold water on an affair like telling the OBS. Even if it is/was an exit affair, the OW will not be able to make moves now without her husband being aware. If it is not an exit affair, then she will likely throw your WH under a bus to save her own ass. Do not inform your husband that you are telling OBS, just tell him. Make it easy on him, if he has no idea it will hard for him to accept this information so make sure you send him proof. Then sit back and watch the fireworks.

Also, you might be sitting back, thinking this trashbag "won" by stealing your husband or whatever. I assure you, your neither your WH nor Trashy McTrasherson are considered prizes. You are way above this. You know your worth and you KNOW you deserve to be treated better.

Keep posting. We are here for you. <3