SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi!

I'm a WS in need of some help. My infidelity came out this summer and my partner and I agreed on staying together until the end of December to see if there is anything worth saving in our relationship. I wrote a full disclosure for her, telling her everything about my relationships with other women. Since then she had a few questions and we had big problems with two things, mostly.

1. I can't stop looking at women sexually and objectifying them. This is not what I'm writing about today but I would appreciate some tips on how to stop doing this as well.

2. Being honest to her. I don't want to make excuses but I have found it very difficult on the one hand to answer her questions truthfully and on the other, to tell her about what she would want to know (without being asked). She even said that she would break up with me if I lied to her or kept something from her one more time and I still did it.

I know that it's always better to be honest so she can know and decide for herself if she wants to be with me. I still want to hide, mostly from her anger, but I think also from admitting to myself that I am a person that would do/think such a thing (depending on the question), additionally I have thoughts that she couldn't possibly stay with me if she knew this detail.

I wrote a plan on how to be honest, for example telling her if I feel the urge to lie or if I'm afraid I might lie and telling her that there's things I need to tell her right away when we see each other. I know in the end it's my responsibility to be honest to her, but do you have any tips that might help me?

I think a big problem is that I'm afraid of anger and have been afraid of her for quite some time now. I feel like I've been afraid of anger all my life, afraid of my parents' anger and my bigger brothers anger. I feel like when someones angry at me I can't do anything and just cower down. This has been a problem for a long time in my relationship, as I think I always felt inferior whenever we had arguments, like I couldn't "protect" myself from her. So any tips on how to not be afraid of her would be appreciated as well.

Thank you!

It sounds like you are conflict avoidant. My WH was too and that’s what got us in this situation.

To me, the best thing you could do is approach her and let her know exactly how you feel and tell her that you are worried of her reaction. Explain to her that you want to be honest and you know that she may leave you over this truth but that you don’t want to lie anymore and you know how important the truth is. Apologize for lying and the pain you have already caused and the further pain this will cause and then spit it out.

She is in control of her reactions. You can’t control other people. If she is angry, that is ok and expected, you would be too. If she cries and is hurt, that is also to be expected. If she is violent, that is not acceptable and you should be prepared to leave. I don’t know if her anger is normal or if in your head you are making it to be worse than it is. My WH would build me up to be a lot worse than I am or ever have been because of his FOO issues. I am not his dad, but he treated me like I was. She is not your parents or your big brother.

Good luck, I hope you come forward with the truth on your own. That’s all most of us want is to finally know the truth.

Do you have any kids? I have daughters and I know my WH has changed his viewpoints dramatically on women since we had them. Not enough apparently or he wouldn’t have had an affair, but the way you specialize women - just imagine another man sexualizing your daughter like that. For doing nothing but just being herself. They are people, not sexual objects. I don’t know, maybe it’s worth discussing with a therapist to figure out where that came from and why you continue to do such a thing.

1.) Just stop. That’s a tip. It sounds (to me) like this is a problem that is more one imposed than one that you believe. If you really recognize it as disruptive you can understand how to alter this perspective. I just wrote about how I just, of a sudden, dropped my lifelong porn use in conjunction with starting a 12 Step program earlier this year- Before that it “bothered” me, but not enough to actually stop. Sounds similar here, worthy of examination with IC, if that’s something you’re doing.

2.) Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT.) A way to stop when you have feelings that overwhelm and disrupt rational thought. The book that my IC put in front of me is “Feeling Good” by David Burns. It’s plenty practical (and I believe there’s a workbook version) so it really walks you through the process of catching your cognitive distortions.

I hope these help. Are you in IC?

[This message edited by JBWD at 11:51 AM, November 15th (Sunday)]

BS here, but no stop sign....

I, too, think some therapy will help, if you find a good therapist.

It might help to acknowledge your fear of anger explicitly. It might also help to take a moment before answering questions to acknowledge your fear and soothe yourself so you can answer honestly. Just tell your W that's what you're doing.

Remember: your W may get angry at the truth, but she's guaranteed to get even angrier if you lie.

[This message edited by sisoon at 12:49 PM, November 15th (Sunday)]

Do or do not, there is no try. Yeah, it sounds silly quoting it but how true is it?

Stop trying. Trying leads to failure. Doing leads to success. Any excuses can be attributed to a saying I heard long ago:

"Excuses are like buttholes. Everyone has one and they all stink."

-put on those big boy pants and own your choices. Plan for the absolute worst and hope for the best. Big picture, you will be a happier person once you accept how the truth improves your own sense of self worth regardless of what those around us do with the truth of our actions.

@Thissucks5678 yes conflict avoidant would describe me quite well I think and it did cause us a lot of problems.

Thank you for those tips, I think becoming aware of and telling her my feelings/fears would be a good idea.I'm going to try and notice when I feel the need to lie and speak my fears out loud. That would take a lot of power away from them I believe.

As you said, it's expected if she's angry or hurt and I'll have to confront that. She tries hard not to insult me and she would under no circumstances get physically violent, but I know that when that happens I can call a time-out. I think that I'm more afraid of her or her anger than I should/have to be. I know those issues are mine to work on.

Thank you for saying that. I know right now all she wants is the truth and she does deserve it.

No, we don't have any kids. Thank you for those insights, I will try that and I'm going to discuss it with my therapist today.

@JBWD you're right, that is what it boils down to in the end. I am in IC and I thought about talking about that. My fear of anger is definitely something I'll have to look at and being dishonest could be a thing as well. I will talk about it in IC, thank you.

Thank you for the book recommendation, I'm going to check that out.

@sisoon I think that I have found a good therapist for me and hope it will help, yes.

Stating it out loud is a good idea and trying to soothe myself or tell myself she won't leave right now, she deserves the truth or as you said, it's less bad if I tell her the truth right away sound good, too. I will try to do that.

@NotMyFirstRodeo I actually thought of that exact quote when she and I talked about it. In the end I'll have to just do it.

You're right, in the end those were my choices and I'll have to own them. I want to be the kind of person who owns their choices and is honest, and there's no better time to start being/becoming that person than now. And no matter what happes, at least I won't have lied anymore.

Best-

My WH is also SUPER conflict avoidant, super defensive, and a SUPER good liar. He has not done the work in this regard. I still catch him on the stupidest of stupid lies. It's a habit. His knee jerk reaction to any question is to say whatever does not put him in what he perceives in that moment as a possible "bad" light (and probably very similar to the fears you posted about - ie someone being "angry" at him, even if that's not even in the same galaxy), or even what he sees as a "good" light.

A recent example was my asking WH if he could see a video playing on my phone. He said yes... Simple, straightforward question & answer. A few hours later I wanted to re-watch it and said I couldn't really see the screen before (hence my asking if HE could see it so that at least one of us could). WH says he wants to rewatch as well bc he could NOT see the screen - even tho I asked a very specific question and he gave an unqualified answer.

Then comes the defensiveness.... "I thought it was more important for you to be able to see it" is what comes out of his mouth. May be an altruistic thing, but then why lie about it? Why not just say "No, I can't really see it, but that's Ok bc I think it's better if you can" ?

Does that kind of exchange sound familiar to you?

I think a WS working on this level of honesty needs to understand that these kinds of exchanges - that don't have ANYTHING to do with their A(s), can still be a trigger (sometimes HUGE) for a BS. I think many WS in that kind of sitch are scratching their heads and can't see or understand why they are in the doghouse when their "untruth" is not A-related. The thing is that once you've cheated, there can be NO MORE LIES - EVER. One lie, not matter how stupid or small, can be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back (not saying to scare or pressure you, it's just how it really is for many BS).

I wish I could remember the specific WS posters, but there have been several (prolly older) comments & threads on WS learning honesty.

The thing I remember most is several WS saying that it required being SUPER mindful of EVERYTHING in all instances. IOW, not just saying what comes out of one's mouth "naturally", but when asked about something, the WS would STOP and take a moment to REALLY think about the honest answer. This includes the "does my butt look big in these pants" comments. It includes someone asking if you are having a good day. It includes EVERYTHING. From what I recall, it took time, but then honesty became the new "habit" in place of the constant lying from conflict avoidance.

I think a WS who gets real about becoming honest is a WS that would NOT say "yes" to "can you see the screen" when the truth is "no". KWIM?

ETA: and if you are SA (can't tell from your OP, but it sounds like that's within the realm of possibility, given the sexualization comments and relationshipS (plural) with women), there are resources within 12 step programs about honesty, and I can't imagine there wouldn't be a ton of them within SAA - which I would encourage you to check out... as well as your BS, if you have addictive tendencies & sexually acting out behaviors. Goole sex addicts anonymous and you'll find some resources.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:49 PM, November 16th, 2020 (Monday)]

As dumb as it sounds, we had a two minute rule where I could retract a lie without penalty (penalty for lying, that is; there was no free pass on the consequences for the substance of the admission). It's humiliating that I, a grown-ass woman, needed to ask for take-backsies, but there it is. Sometimes I would go into instant flight mode when asked a tough question, and then within seconds after lying, I'd panic: I did it again! Fuck, that was my last chance, and I've ruined everything!" If I just had enough time to take a deep breath and say, "Wait, that isn't true. I'm sorry, I panicked. Here's the truth," it still wasn't great, but the damage was significantly lessened for my BH. Had I let a lie stand for hours or days, that might have killed our R.

I imagine you have to be in the mindset of really, truly wanting to reform for this to work, or it will just become a way to buy time and control the narrative. It was hideously embarrassing and humbling every time I invoked that rule.

As dumb as it sounds, we had a two minute rule where I could retract a lie without penalty

That's not dumb at all. We sort of have the same rule but at a 10 minutes grace period :P

I think being able to ask/create space so I could process my reactions is one of the most useful tools I've crafted for myself in therapy.

I too have a knee jerk reaction to lie. Definitely conflict avoidant and afraid of anger, mixed with never wanting to disappoint. Absolutely no excuse tho. I haven’t been dishonest over stupid stuff in a while now but I was still omitting & lying about a specific detail on a revised timeline I had been working on. H had to ask me twice last night before I confessed on the detail. I want to address this issue with myself as well. I really like the grace period ideas.

best53

Another BS here. I don't know enough about your story to make insightful observations. So a few questions:

-How many affairs did you have?

-Do you lie about everything or only when disclosing your affairs to you BS?

.

I can't stop looking at women sexually and objectifying them.

As someone else mentioned, this may be a red flag for a sex addiction (there are online surveys you can take. Do you have other addictions? Porn, masturbating, gambling, drugs, alcohol, shopping, gaming?

Objectifying women also indicates a lack of empathy, as does multiple affairs.

Honestly, I don't think you'll find the answers you need here. An individual counselor can work with you on your conflict avoidance, empathy issues, what sounds like a troubled childhood. If you get into counseling, perhaps you can ask your BS for a few extra months to see if you develop some insights into yourself.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 10:17 PM, November 20th (Friday)]

Does that kind of exchange sound familiar to you?

I can totally see something like that happen with my partner and me. I often say things I don't mean exactly like that and think the other person will understand what I meant, instead of what I said. Which is infuriating to be on the other side of, I know.

Thank you for your answer. Thinking of what the honest answer would be instead of saying what comes out "naturally" is something I'm going to try. I think that is a big problem and I do get the basis of ABSOLUTELY no more lies, no matter what about. Because if I can lie about this *small thing*, then I could lie about everything, right? I think that this got better already, but I'll try to remind myself to really think about whether something is true or not. Because often I noticed I do automatically say what I think sounds best instead of what's true or the full truth.

ETA: and if you are SA

Yes, I am a sex addict and I'm going to SLAA telemeetings. I don't think I saw many resources about being honest other than that it's vital in recovery. But thank you for the tip, I will look again.

As dumb as it sounds, we had a two minute rule where I could retract a lie without penalty (penalty for lying, that is; there was no free pass on the consequences for the substance of the admission).

I don't think that sounds stupid at all. We kind of had that rule, though unspoken. I talked to my partner about it and she thinks it would be a good rule as well (we didn't set a time limit, I will ask her again but I understood it as within about the next 2 things that are said.) I know that I can't use this to buy time or control the narrative or anything, but it is a good tool to start being honest I think. And to start not needing that I can ask for time before I answer, for example if I think a question is one I might want to lie about.

Being ablet to ask for or create space before I answer is something I will do as well, it does sound like a very good idea, forgettableDad.

-How many affairs did you have?

I had one that was an emotional affair and I kissed someone else one time. But I was also starting university and met a lot of new people there and was (unconsciously) on the way to build new emotional affairs, I fantasized about a lot of people, including friends of my partner and me as well as people at university, I developed "crushes" on people at university. So a lot of it was only in my head, as well as the way I built "friendships", especially with women.

-Do you lie about everything or only when disclosing your affairs to you BS?

It's mostly about things that have to do with my affairs, or mean thoughts I had about my partner. I think I've gotten better at that part, I think in a way I see it less as an option not to tell the truth, but I also don't want to be too sure of myself.

I think it could be smaller things as well, where I maybe don't think I could be lying about that and so I don't check myself as much. Then it's more like a half-truth than a full blown lie (which isn't really better).

As I wrote above, I am a sex addict. I am also in IC with a counselor who works with addicts, but there are a lot of issues I want to tackle there, like my childhood, my fear of anger, objectification and more. I will talk to him about empathy as well.

Thank you for your answers everyone, I think there were some great suggestions here.

Hey Best - I had an exchange with WH this weekend in which I kind of had a "light bulb" moment about him/his process (it's not my circus or monkey, but just kind of "hit" me), which was reignited by this comment:

I often say things I don't mean exactly like that and think the other person will understand what I meant, instead of what I said

My WH shares this MO. And what dawned on me is that, from my lens, it looks like a brilliant coping mechanism. IOW, so long as one's thoughts aren't too deep, so long as one's communication is not crystal clear, then one does not ever need to really look at it or hold themselves responsible for it.

This reminds me of all the fights we had early on after dday that mostly revolved around semantics. Hell, we had one of those earlier this year on "lying" vs "dishonesty" and "lying by omission", etc. He is a genius at finding language to minimize pain to himself, never even considering the pain that minimization does to me, all under the umbrella of not taking the time to say what you mean and mean what you say.

I think my WH has viewed his internal self, his feelings, and his behaviors, through a lens that's been slathered with FOO vaseline (old photographer trick to get soft, "dreamy", or unfocused views). And when I really think about him, his FOO, etc. it makes perfect sense. If anger or conflict triggers some uncomfortable feeling (for him, past childhood trauma), then I can see how our internal coping systems would just stop looking at things clearly -and in turn, not EXPRESSING them clearly - in order to avoid those uncomfortable feelings of conflict, pain, disappointing someone else, etc. I believe for my WH this shit goes DEEP and has been ingrained for his entire life. And IME with my WH, it's not "just" about the obviously uncomfortable stuff (like, I'm in touch with an old GF I've known for 30+ years and never told you about... or I'm having sex with said woman). It's so ingrained, it can be the MO in even the most mundane of conversations (which is what happened this weekend).

If he tells himself he understands, or doesn't say what he means, then he doesn't have to THINK about whatever he doesn't understand and in turn, doesn't have to FEEL whatever may be uncomfortable if he communicated to remove the vaseline from the lens through which he "sees".

Internally, when we don't say EXACTLY what we mean, then we don't hold OURSELVES accountable for it, and if others try to, we have our own defense mechanism firmly in place to avoid internal personal responsibility, and (bonus!) responsibility to others. Looking objectively, what a wonderful mechanism to avoid pain and anger or anything that may not feel "good" AND have zero internal "bad" feelings about that as well!

I'm a fan of "parts work" and it's helped me a lot in parsing a lot of this stuff out for myself. IOW, when my actions aren't in sync with my values or goals, then what's going on? What "part" or feeling is running the show? How can I heal that part so that it feels safe and heard and confident to get my actions & values in sync?

I think that other modalities can help one parse that out as well, but the concept of "parts" that hold pain or protect me from pain playing into my actions has worked best for me.

OK, now wondering if I'm just journaling on your thread.... if so, sorry for the t/j!

[This message edited by gmc94 at 1:29 PM, November 23rd, 2020 (Monday)]

best53

It sounds like you are doing a lot of the hard work, so kudos to you.

Yes, I am a sex addict and I'm going to SLAA telemeetings. I don't think I saw many resources about being honest other than that it's vital in recovery.

Yes, as you know, the theme of 'rigorous honesty' is paramount in 12-steps programs. Sex addiction at its core is an intimacy disorder, and lying helps prevent intimacy. Intimacy can't exist if your partner can't see the real you, and she can't see the real you if you aren't completely honest, or if your comments and behaviors are subject to her interpretation. It kind of lets you off the hook, since you can always sidestep.

Just fyi, there is also a program called Liars Anonymous. I don't know anything about it.

Keep doing the work. No matter what happens with this relationship, you will be a healthier you for it.

rigorous honesty

Please keep in mind that there is a difference between honesty and opinion.

fooled13years.

I don't follow. What am I not understanding?