SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm going to try to give you the most simply answer I can think of to this complicated question:

If you're worried that, by not following through on your previous threat of divorce, he will cheat on you again or simply respect you less, then you should divorce him... because it means that your relationship is built on quicksand and will inevitably topple.

But if you're confident in his honesty now, and he sees your forgiveness as an act of grace to which he's not entitled, then I don't think you should be losing any more sleep over this than you already have.

I don’t care he slept with her, we were broken up, and he slept with her when they were dating.

IDK ... Really? A few years ago, something came up that led me to tell my W something about a previous relationship. She got really upset, even though the previous relationship had been 50+ years earlier and before we had met. Possessiveness is very human.

I recommend figuring out if you're really OK with your H2b's sex with his ex, especially since he probably hadn't broken up with you totally - rather, he might have harbored a hope of getting back together even while taking up with his ex.

*****

Ordinarily I'd write that going with what you want - not to D - is probably the best course for you. BSR's description of your M, though, makes me wonder if you really want to stay M to your H. Whoever is right about you and your M, your optimal solution depends on whether the pro-M or pro-D experiences are more important to you.

I'll say this: even if BSR's view is accurate, I see you as flexible, not weak.

I find it very hard to believe he completely forgot about this lie. I think you are being overly generous in giving him a possible pass here.

When asked again, he said he had sex with her. He didn't suddenly remember. His response was immediate? He didn't have to think about it? He also is telling you why he lied. So he remembers it enough to remember why he didn't tell you.

Imo, he remembered a long time ago. Maybe not when you both had a conversation about clearing up past lies. But,at some point, he remembered. Had you not asked this specific question, he wasn't going to tell you. That's obvious.

Hiking..you talk a lot about the work you've done. And you have done that work. We all see it. We all benefit from it. I have to wonder if he's actually doing the work. Because he was ok with this lie. He really was.

I'm not suggesting divorce, or having him sleep in another room. But I think he still has work to do. You need a fully safe partner. And a ws who is keeping secrets isn't safe. I imagine,logically, you're wondering what else you don't know. That's unfair,at this point.

Ok..he's admits he lied. For the entirety of the marriage. What's his plan? Because he can't just shrug his shoulders, say he's sorry, and then move on as of this is nothing. And..you shouldn't either.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:05 PM, Friday, October 11th]

Also, I haven't seen anyone else mention that you absolutely had the right to know if he had been with a other woman, before you had sex with him again. I highly doubt he was tested in between the two of you. He could have exposed you to stds, because,as you mentioned,he didn't want to tell you,in order to "protect" her.

I don't care if it's been 30 years. That would piss me off.

Ordinarily I'd write that going with what you want - not to D - is probably the best course for you. BSR's description of your M, though, makes me wonder if you really want to stay M to your H.

I think it's layers deeper than that, though. For any BS (and I'm a BW, too, though I rarely dust off that hat), infidelity raises the crisis of what we want to want. What does the choice to stay or go mean about us? What if we know we should go but can't break free? What if we wish we could forgive but realize we aren't wired to do it? Are we giving up too easily if we stay or giving up too easily if we go? Are we "better" if we stand firm in our principles or if we bend to offer grace?

Even a truly remorseful WS can't necessarily solve these problems for the BS. We've seen betrayed spouses self-flagellate for leaving even though their WS moved mountains to get them to stay. If the wayward's effort is half-hearted or nonexistent, I suppose that at least gives clarity to the BS who knows in their heart that the cheating was a deal breaker, but it's the coldest of possible comforts. And for the BS who wants to stay, it makes R very difficult to achieve.

I don't see grappling with these questions as any kind of weakness.

Because of this, I think the BW mantle has always sat uneasily on your shoulders...You made sense of it by interpreting his hypocrisy as a trauma response, because if that's really just who he is, you feel it demands a re-evaluation from you of something foundational about yourself and your willingness to overlook it.

On that note, I know that you already know this on an intellectual level, but I wonder if you really accept it and feel it: Nothing that you did caused him to cheat. You're a MH, but you're also a full-fledged BS.

If you see him with absolute clarity, will you lose your respect for and attraction to him? Or do his good qualities and the life you've built together outweigh that disillusionment? These are the questions that every BS has to ask themselves. That world is far grayer than the world of the WS.

These questions are what brought me back to SI after 18+ years. I don't want to scare the newly minted BSs, but R is like dealing with a chronic condition. It's always there. It could stay in remission for the rest of your life or it could flare up from time to time. It could be a mild outbreak, or it could be an old, uncovered lie that makes you question reality. In my case, it was a flare-up of selfish behavior at the expense of our collective wellbeing. We've grown - again - and he's seemingly becoming a solid partner, but the rose-colored glasses are off and Pollyanna has left the building.

Have you given your H too much slack because you wounded him? How are you tending to your wounds?

Hikingout, I'm following your dialog with other members of SI on this thread and feeling like we've shared so many painful experiences, yet I don't know that I've ever posted to you in all my years here. Just wanted to ask you today about a different "hypothetical" angle to consider.

If I understand the context correctly, you two recently made a major lifestyle decision: to return to the bricks-and-mortar home base rather than full-timing it on the road. I thought 'how interesting a coincidence for you to come across this journal when you did.' I've had a few similar gut-wrenching 'WTF is THIS' discoveries many years later, so I relate to how it throws a lot of things into question in an otherwise comfortable-feeling R.

I see that you guys just are re-commiting to a life together that likely will offer you less 'freedom' than the full-time travelling lifestyle. So I am wondering how you are feeling about that in light of this truth coming out, now. Maybe it could be a 'blessing in disguise' that you came across this bit when you did, eh? Before you lock in to the next chapter....

I know whenever we hit the road in our RV with our doggos, all of us feel a lot more bonded, it really is a hardwired instinct for social beings like humans and dogs to stick together in strange places, especially when the engine starts up! When we travel our dogs are hyper-vigilant watching to mark when Dad may climb into the driver's seat - they'll scramble to get back into the truck cab before he puts the key in the ignition! And even I sense a heightened camaraderie in our travels - that usually vanishes the day we get home!

What do you think of this aspect?

Anyway, we broke up briefly, and within a week he changed his mind. I think he saw the truth and came back. At the time this hurt. Lot, but like I said we might have been dating like a month and I knew him well, I took him back. It was rocky though as you can imagine at first. I asked him if he slept with her while we were broken up and he said no.

Well, anyway, coming across this journal I decided to ask again. This time I got the answer "yes, once".

I don’t know why this ancient history bothers me so much, I mean at the time even I understood that he just thought he wanted her because of the head games. I have had no doubt over the years that had he really ended up with her it would not have worked.

BUT- one I never thought he had lied to me. The other is we said throw down anything here and now that the other doesn’t know before we said okay after this no more lies, we both feel it would be grounds for divorce.

Well @hikingout let's look at this for what it is--it is indeed a D-Day of sorts. I mean yes you knew of this woman before--all throughout your relationship by a few months in--but you got a serious new detail. So no wonder you are upset.

Your husband was the one who introduced infidelity into your relationship! I understand that you have both grown a lot since then, but I do think this point needs to be made.

I'm honestly not sure of what advice to give you moving forward--you can appreciate his grace in forgiving you for your affair yes but then he had a revenge affair--but my hope is that he understands that just what a serious transgression his ommission was.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 6:09 PM, Friday, October 11th]

I'll say something else. I SERIOUSLY object on here--actually I get *extremely* angry--when BHs are told in a certain context that "it (WW's relationship) with AP never would have worked" (or "WW didn't really trust AP"). So my hope is that you are not using that "it never would have worked out long-term with Ms Tramp" as any sort of rationalization of sorts or anything like that. ETA: Or I should say--trying to use--because I don't think it EVER works.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 7:20 PM, Friday, October 11th]

Wow, thanks everyone. Gonna try and work my way down this list.

I am going to start with bsr. I do think she made an accurate synopsis of my posting history here on the site. She and I are old comrades and her support has been instrumental over the years because she cuts through some massive human bullshit with good sense and logic.

However, I do think it’s like she said to Sissoon what she is saying is far more complex because of course we are a bit 2D in here. All people have light and dark in them, and here let’s face it we mostly post grappling with the dark. So my response below is just meant to broaden the view a bit:

The resentments that led to your affair were grounded in being angry, exhausted, and unheard but not knowing how to take your power back. When you were ready to leave the marriage, you chose to do something that would get you fired rather standing up to quit. Once you realized what a bad choice that was, re-entering the subordinate role was familiar territory for you. I'm not saying you were happy to be there, but there is a certain clarity and almost relief in a black and white situation where one person is right and the other is wrong. You didn't have to wonder if you should be standing up for yourself. Short of abuse, complaining about pre-infidelity problems in the marriage is off the table for a WS.

Yes. I will balance that a little bit though. I was unheard because I didn’t make myself heard. Anyone carrying resentment in a relationship on my view has a responsibility to their own resentment. Either by forming better boundaries, or not being as avoidant as I was, I was responsible for those things. I have found since practicing being more securely attached and by improving my confidence and self worth, that I can navigate that so much better now. I feel in control of my own life decisions and desires and have for some time now. You aren’t wrong, just I feel like we need to calculate some of my own accountability in my pre A marriage.

Because of this, I think the BW mantle has always sat uneasily on your shoulders

I absolutely understand where you are coming from in this part. But I think this exists more through my presence in the forum more than in life. I predominantly post as a ws here because:

1. Most of my personal awareness and growth journey happened with that hat. I know bs and we have differ concerns and sources of pain but the healing aspect of the two are very similiar so when I think of all my personal discoveries it happened because I was so disgusted with myself over what I had done. I have always been self correcting, my mom would tell you she rarely had to punish me because I punished myself enough.

2. It’s because it’s where I can see I can help most. I am not every ws, but I do represent a common sector. I understand my light and dark and lots of times can help other interpret that. My bs experience was still marred with my ws experience due to being. It’s at once. I don’t think this is uncommon when you look at how other madhatters identify or post more about. Think about crazy blindsided and owning it now, they primarily post as bs, because it was their first role. Then you have other MH that post more as ws because it’s their first role.

3. I am still more interested in what I can control which is myself so my predominate interest is continuing to build on what has been done.

. But still, IMO, you feel more comfortable self-identifying as a WW, as if an affair of a few weeks where you confessed and reformed is much worse than a years-long affair in your home, with an employee, who was the wife of another employee who respected and supported him in the aftermath of D-Day. He made you a BW, and his friend an OBS, while collecting the benefits (including not only the moral high ground, but also the legal and financial advantage of a post-nup) of a BH. He insisted he wouldn't tolerate one more lie from you while lying to you daily for years.

I know what you are saying here, and I do t disagree with it, but I will add that honestly, when most people get in an affair they don’t really know what they are going to do past the day they are on. His affair was active for a year, the last six months of it was mostly during lockdown. But I don’t think he set out to do worse or longer or any of that. My husband is kind of a recluse, he doesn’t have many friends, and he didn’t want to go to therapy. She was a conventions shoulder for him to cry on, and he let that get out of hand. Once that happens, it usually goes on until it runs its course or someone is discovered.

Mine lasted shorter time only because my Ap was discovered. Add to it that I was CEO of a company at the time and this person was on my board. I have never spelled it out quite like that here, but I jeapordized my career and still made someone else an OBS. I would have gone on with it likely until my marriage was ruined because I was really too batshit crazy to do anything else. In addition, he had to deal with my pining and fog and a host of other things that I never had to deal with.

Once you cheat there are many consequences you can’t predict, especially what it might trigger in your bs. So if parts of it were even retaliatory, I do know I still have some accountability over his mental state at that time.

I do not think anyone deserves to be cheated on and what he did was as wrong as what I did, but there is no tally sheet to keep about it. Once the train leaves the station it will go in the direction it does. So, I don’t think he set out to have a longer, worse affair, I don’t think his intentions were any worse than mine. But just like I should have divorced instead so should have he. Neither of us were strong enough to do that and so we were two cowards who went and found escape and solace with someone else without regard of one another.

I think deep down, you know that's extreme behavior even for a compartmentalizer. You made sense of it by interpreting his hypocrisy as a trauma response, because if that's really just who he is, you feel it demands a re-evaluation from you of something foundational about yourself and your willingness to overlook it.

I think it's good that you're asking yourself these questions. I don't necessarily think it's the end of the road to see him as inherently flawed rather than a victim of circumstance. We established long ago that he couldn't have cheated if the tools weren't sitting there inside him, waiting for the trigger to pick them up.

I think it’s good as well. I want to have clarity and not allow my Pollyanna spirit to trick me. But I do see him as flawed, and a victim and one is not more predominant than the other. I used to think he had no dark, could do no wrong, other than the skewed thinking that came from my people pleasing and unexpressed expectations. The affair made his dark side very big to me just like any other bs. And for a long time I saw everything he did with a slant. I think I have reached some balance but I still live my rose colored glasses and I am at the point that I don’t just want honesty with him but I want it with myself. I see the silver linings but ignore the storm clouds a lot, and that’s on me.

You're similar in so many ways, with resentment having smoothed the path to entitlement, with insecurities that led you to self-soothing and subterfuge instead of walking out on the high road. He is more hypocritical than you knew, more hypocritical than you. Does that mean you have to make a pact with yourself to leave him if he only manages a patchy version of the work? If you see him with absolute clarity, will you lose your respect for and attraction to him? Or do his good qualities and the life you've built together outweigh that disillusionment? These are the questions that every BS has to ask themselves. That world is far grayer than the world of the WS.

. Does that mean you have to make a pact with yourself to leave him if he only manages a patchy version of the work? If you see him with absolute clarity, will you lose your respect for and attraction to him? Or do his good qualities and the life you've built together outweigh that disillusionment? These are the questions that every BS has to ask themselves. That world is far grayer than the world of the WS.

At this point in time there is a lot more good than bad. We get along. We have fun, we talk, we share a history. He has tried to make any dream I have had come true and in most ways he is a good partner.

BUT

I think this revelation has peeled another layer and now I am paying a lot of attention. I am strong enough today to protect all the past versions of myself. Meaning, there is a guard dog there now that knows that hiking out is.a good person and someone needs to look out for her too. I am important too. So perhaps all this is pointing to is keeping my lens a little less rose colored as we navigate this next bend.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:48 PM, Friday, October 11th]

Blue- you have an uncanny knack of booking things down and making a lot of sense. Thank you.

If you're worried that, by not following through on your previous threat of divorce, he will cheat on you again or simply respect you less, then you should divorce him... because it means that your relationship is built on quicksand and will inevitably topple.

But if you're confident in his honesty now, and he sees your forgiveness as an act of grace to which he's not entitled, then I don't think you should be losing any more sleep over this than you already have.

I will think about this. It’s a good distinction. Maybe I am still a little cloudy from all the emotions and discussions and my pendulum swinging back and forth, but somehow this feels like a good litmus. I don’t know the answer right now, but this is a good point of clarity.

Sissoon

IDK ... Really? A few years ago, something came up that led me to tell my W something about a previous relationship. She got really upset, even though the previous relationship had been 50+ years earlier and before we had met. Possessiveness is very human.

I recommend figuring out if you're really OK with your H2b's sex with his ex, especially since he probably hadn't broken up with you totally - rather, he might have harbored a hope of getting back together even while taking up with his ex.

*****

So at the time it was upsetting. We were completely broken up though. I think I just have a hard time feeling possessive or jealous about it now. I am squarely more upset that it’s a lie that spans the length of our relationship.

*****

I'll say this: even if BSR's view is accurate, I see you as flexible, not weak.

Thank you. I agree.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:49 PM, Friday, October 11th]

I find it very hard to believe he completely forgot about this lie. I think you are being overly generous in giving him a possible pass here.

When asked again, he said he had sex with her. He didn't suddenly remember. His response was immediate? He didn't have to think about it? He also is telling you why he lied. So he remembers it enough to remember why he didn't tell you.

Yes, he answered immediately, maybe with just a brief hesitation to brace himself but he didn’t hem and haw over it. I do t think it’s that he forgot everything more that it’s not something he things about or considered that much over the years. I think Imachump nailed it when he said that some people tell the lie and move on. They don’t really ruminate over it, they just sort of move on. I am not like that, he is like that. I don’t ever remember a time I suspected a lie or caught a lie other than this and the affair, but h does this with everything else, so it tracks. He makes a bad decision, okay move on. He does something inconsiderate and I tell him I don’t like it, okay and move on.

Imo, he remembered a long time ago. Maybe not when you both had a conversation about clearing up past lies. But,at some point, he remembered. Had you not asked this specific question, he wasn't going to tell you. That's obvious.

No, he wasn’t going to tell me. He even admits it.

Hiking..you talk a lot about the work you've done. And you have done that work. We all see it. We all benefit from it. I have to wonder if he's actually doing the work. Because he was ok with this lie. He really was.

If you had said this two weeks ago I would have been comfortable to say I am proud of the work he has done and he has never waiveree. He didn’t really just do a little bit and stop growing either. But you are right it calls everything into question.

I'

m not suggesting divorce, or having him sleep in another room. But I think he still has work to do. You need a fully safe partner. And a ws who is keeping secrets isn't safe. I imagine,logically, you're wondering what else you don't know. That's unfair,at this point.

Ok..he's admits he lied. For the entirety of the marriage. What's his plan? Because he can't just shrug his shoulders, say he's sorry, and then move on as of this is nothing. And..you shouldn't either.

It’s a good point. Not sure what path we will go on with all of it. I told him last night to figure it out. That’s his task, I have been groveling over finding a direction forward and it just came to me of it’s not my mess to clean up. I still have to figure out my own headspace but let him find a direction, I am tired of being the one to do it.

Also, I haven't seen anyone else mention that you absolutely had the right to know if he had been with a other woman, before you had sex with him again. I highly doubt he was tested in between the two of you. He could have exposed you to stds, because,as you mentioned,he didn't want to tell you,in order to "protect" her.

I don't care if it's been 30 years. That would piss me off.

I asked about this. He said they used a condom. Back then he seemed to be pretty religious about doing that. He used zero in his affair, and he was honest about that so I think he is being truthful.

Superesse,

I know whenever we hit the road in our RV with our doggos, all of us feel a lot more bonded, it really is a hardwired instinct for social beings like humans and dogs to stick together in strange places, especially when the engine starts up! When we travel our dogs are hyper-vigilant watching to mark when Dad may climb into the driver's seat - they'll scramble to get back into the truck cab before he puts the key in the ignition! And even I sense a heightened camaraderie in our travels - that usually vanishes the day we get home!

Sure I know what you mean here. Just like when people go on vacation they feel this way and they get home and life intervenes. That has been an adjustment on many levels. I think it’s separate from what is happening here, but I do understand why you would be thinking about that.

On that note, I know that you already know this on an intellectual level, but I wonder if you really accept it and feel it: Nothing that you did caused him to cheat. You're a MH, but you're also a full-fledged BS.

Oh I know that the cheating part is on him. There is a little bit of interrelated dynamics but no one has a free pass to cheat.

Have you given your H too much slack because you wounded him? How are you tending to your wounds?

I do not yet know the answer to the first question. The second question yes, I am very dedicated to my well being and healing.

I laughed because I just wrote a respons about my Pollyanna/ rose colored glasses thing. It’s an issue probably. But it’s deeply who I am and have always been. I like that about myself but I need to figure out if it’s causing self deception as well.

I'll say something else. I SERIOUSLY object on here--actually I get *extremely* angry--when BHs are told in a certain context that "it (WW's relationship) with AP never would have worked" (or "WW didn't really trust AP"). So my hope is that you are not using that "it never would have worked out long-term with Ms Tramp" as any sort of rationalization of sorts or anything like that. ETA: Or I should say--trying to use--because I don't think it EVER works.

I inderstand what you mean. The answer is no-but he didn’t cheat on me with Ms tramp, and it’s my way of saying 30 years later that I don’t feel threatened by her and didn’t even feel that way at the time. I thought he was really being played for a fool.

I'll say something else. I SERIOUSLY object on here--actually I get *extremely* angry--when BHs are told in a certain context that "it (WW's relationship) with AP never would have worked" (or "WW didn't really trust AP").

I'm curious why. I've said multiple times that a legitimate relationship with the OM would have been a train wreck, and my BH found it comforting. It doesn't make my decision to cheat less terible, but it's better than "we were genuinely compatible and could have been happy together in other circumstances." Also, neither OM nor I were trustworthy people, so "I didn't trust him" is a statement of fact.

I'm not trying to argue the point -- you're entitled to your feelings! -- I'm just trying to understand. Is it the context that I'm missing?

BSR: It would be a threadjack that I don't think would be helpful at all to our friend @hikingout i.e., her response to me above says that it is not relevant to her situation, so I will post on DoubleTraicon's thread about my feelings on this some more (the topic in that thread does lend itself to more general musings) soon though.

@hikingout, I do see what you mean and I am happy to hear that you do not feel at all threatened by her.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:03 PM, Friday, October 11th]

I laughed because I just wrote a respons about my Pollyanna/ rose colored glasses thing. It’s an issue probably. But it’s deeply who I am and have always been. I like that about myself but I need to figure out if it’s causing self deception as well.

Same, girl. Same.

I really like that I'm an empathetic optimist. I can turn things over and see all the sides, but I know for sure that I have also whitewashed problems and/or put my spin on them so that they make sense to me, or so I can Pollyanna the fuck out of things and see the lesson that they're offering me. I've chewed on things that he's said or done for so long and examined them so thoroughly only to find out how I eventually reconcile them isn't what was going on in his head. That's my clue that Hi, I'm the problem. It's me.

Lord, I hope that makes sense.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:34 PM, Friday, October 11th]