SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I feel like I should forgive the AP. This is more from a religious/christian standpoint than some actual pain point.

1. I forgave fWW years ago-most important step for me.
2. I never met AP. She met him on internet, and he lives 900 miles away. I saw one picture of him (clothes on).
3. I don’t hate him anymore. I don’t feel very much towards him at all-mostly indifferent.
4. I don’t even have a clear mental image of him. I really can’t see his face in my mind anymore.
5. He feels 2 dimensional in my brain. There, but not really human. More like a concept.
6. He rarely enters my mind anymore.
7. I know in my heart I have not forgiven him. I feel like there is not enough there in my brain to latch on to forgive. Like trying to forgive the wind for blowing your papers all over the lawn.

I did spend years hating him, but today, he I don’t care about him. He is not worth the effort.

The reason I want to forgive is Christian theology commands it. And being a Christian is very important to me.

I would define forgiveness as identifying the wrong against me, acknowledging that wrong cannot ever be made right, making the decision not to ruminate on that wrong, mentally releasing the person from the wrong. (It’s a mental and emotional process). I think I am stuck on step 4.

Help or further questions welcome. (Also, if anyone wants to just flame the AP, that’s cool too, some of those are really funny).

If we were sitting together with a Bible and some beers, this would be an interesting discussion. Hard to go into the depths of everything I would here with the appropriate community guidelines.

With all you believe there, what is stopping you from achieving what you understand forgiveness to mean?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 12:48 PM, Saturday, August 24th]

Not to sound cliché in what I’m about to say here but forgiveness, to me, was for myself. Not for them. What forgiveness meant for me was to mentally release myself from rumination and place of victim. Yes, I was wronged by these people 100% but, they were never going to make it right, they were never going to make it better, they were never going to see what they did and account for it, or see my pain, or anything like that. Their emotional intelligence level is low and it shows through the decisions they made to engage in an affair in the first place.

They didn’t deserve to have the mental space I gave them - and yet, because I blamed them for my pain I ruminated. I wanted them to hear my pain (for my WS) and to feel my pain for themselves - I wanted them to hurt too.

As I focused on my recovery and confronting all of the triggers that infidelity brought forward for me, I was able to heal and to see these two fools more clearly. I realized that they were hurt people that lacked self worth, lacked self love, lacked confidence, lacked joy, lacked purpose…these two assholes that hurt me so much were miserable with themselves. That’s largely why they did this in the first place, to fill their massive heaps of low self worth. They used each other for temporary highs of feeling worthy. And temporary it was…and once it’s gone, they’re there…low, miserable again, not knowing how to *be* things that I know how to be for my own self.

It was when I realized that what they did wasn’t personal that I could let go. That and acknowledging what their actions triggered within me in my pain and own hurt places. I realized that the AP wanted something from the way I lived my life that she thought she could get from my WS.

I thought, how pathetic, you’ll never get what I have from having sex with my partner, what I have is about ME. I have joy and confidence and value and aspects of my worth and connection and all of these things in my life bc of who I am to myself and as a person. That’s not who the AP is by far. Her character is ugly, and she brings her own self destruction, misery and low quality of life to her own doorstep. She makes herself more miserable and brings herself more pain on her own than I could ever inflict on her. And that…I’m GOOD with that.

Maybe she’ll learn to be better, maybe she won’t, ultimately it’s not my problem. I’m amazing. I’m better with myself, I healed. I have the things in my life that matter to me, and she could never take those from me. And ruminating on her just felt irrelevant after I realized these things. I’m not her "victim", she’s a sad lonely person that’s honestly her own victim and she can keep that shit over there. I conquered and thrived and left her and her shit along with my WS and their shit in my rear view. They’re not even a spec in my brain anymore. Although even as I type this out I know that they’re still there bringing on their own misery bc of who they are as people. And yeah, that’s just too bad.

I haven’t managed it yet with my wife’s AP.

But right now my mum is in the ICU. She was a BS. Her pain was all consuming. It hurt me, my brother, my sister, my grandmother. It was tied up with alcoholism. It half wrecked her. 40 years later, the poison is still there.

It’s my birthday today. I went with my wife and kids to my mum’s house. It’s a bit of a trip. I cleaned up her house, got things she needed. Personal items. Tomorrow I will take them to her in hospital.

Many of the lessons my parents taught me, they had little idea they were teaching. Like when I was betrayed. I knew the cost that I would pay, and my kids would pay, if I didn’t find a better way to deal with it than my mum did. It didn’t have to mean reconciliation although somehow that was possible in my case. I’m grateful for the lesson, even though the learning of it sucked to the nth degree.

Is that forgiveness, of my mother, of my father, of my wife? It seems close. Gratitude for what is, that I get to make good choices, where some others struggle to do so. I’m glad I can.

Good night all.

I have no desire or intentions of forgiving my wife’s AP. He was a friend, he’s a funeral home director, someone with religious teachings and background. He puts himself out there as a caring individual. During his time of need (he had neck surgery and couldn’t lift anything) I was there at the wee hours of the morning to pick up someone deceased and get into the van to move to the funeral home. Him entering my world because, in his words, he envied my relationship with my wife, he pursued her at her weakest time and kept pushing her to stay in the affair when she numerous times told him it needed to end, but selfishly on his part, he continued to prey on her. Nope, forgiveness from me? Not going to happen. He needs to be seeking forgiveness from a higher power than me. But as he continues to pursue weak and vulnerable women destroying families in the process, someone like that will not get an ounce of forgiveness from me. Sorry if that sounds cold, but in my eyes, forgiveness is earned.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 1:52 PM, Saturday, August 24th]

CMB, you wrote

someone like that will not get an ounce of forgiveness from me. Sorry if that sounds cold, but in my eyes, forgiveness is earned.

Some thoughts…

Assuming he dies first, what are your thoughts on forgiveness then?

Will you keep him alive in your heart so you can still hate him?

If you do, are you punishing yourself through it? Or do you find you need those feelings? The not-forgiving?

My AP was a friend, he’s dead now, and I ask myself these questions.

I stuggled in the past with my beliefs and forgiveness, as I also struggled with forgiveness.
I have shared this story several times here, and have been told it offered some guidance to some, so here goes:
Years ago I took part in a startup software company that had a unique feature that was critical for a certain segment of industry. As with many startups we struggled with cash-flow and business processes, so the four of us added a partner who injected money into the company and took over the role of CEO and CFO.
Long story short – he embezzled the company and left us with immense debt. This came to light when negotiations for a buy-out by a large software company stranded. His reasoning was fishy, so I spent some days pouring over our accounts to find out he had taken out a multiple of his investment in wages, bonuses and costs. At the same time we initial investors and employees were getting a small proportion of a low salary.
His role included processing the intellectual patents for our software and idea, and when we talked to our attorney after his departure we were told that he (the attorney) had been pressing him for documents and info to complete that process with no response. The attorney also told us that although we could sue him and even press criminal charges, the cost would exceed any possible repayment and the outcome was not 100% guaranteed.
Some weeks later, he was on the board of the company that had offered to buy us, and some months later they came out with a software update that featured our functionality...

We did our best, but realized that we were out of business. We sold all assets and negotiated loans, basically I bought the others out and assumed some outstanding loans. It was a fair agreement per se – nobody left with any money.

For the next 4-5 years I rented a small cellar-appartment with my wife (then GF. Not the fiancé that cheated on me). I worked a full-time job, and did bartending and security in evenings and weekends. No holidays, no eating out, no new clothes... basically it was work and paying the debt. Heck... for periods we didn’t have a car or only one car. In the mornings a colleague would swing by and give me a lift to work. I would leave my crappy carmped apartment and wait for him by the curbside, where I had a view over the bay my city is at, to the affluent side where the rich people live. There I would make out the roof of the cheating scum’s house...
Every day for some months I would look at that roof and curse him. I would feel sorry about my misery and think about what I would do if I had five minutes alone with him. Then one day my colleague asked me "Bigger – You are a jovial enough guy at work. How come you are always so dark and moody when I pick you up in the mornings?"

That got me thinking...
I decided (and I am a big fan of us controlling our emotions with practice...) to no longer view this man with anger. I replaced it with pity. I would think "I think he’s got to be miserable to have sold his integrity and honor for a few dollars. He has got to have some issues that prevent his real happiness". Strange thing about pity is that if we feel the situation that creates the need for it is SELF INFLICTED it tends to make us lose value in the one we pity. His actions towards me no longer had any value – I let go of him and the resentment.

I don’t know if that is true forgiveness. Towards me I allow myself to think "I couldn’t prevent his actions because there were his issues that made him do what he did. I can’t blame myself, but I can decide not to associate with him and NOT to allow him to reside in my thoughts rent-free".

I can add a karma related ending to my story:
This was over 20 years ago. About 5 years ago the CEO of my present job asked me if I knew this guy from my home-city that was applying for the position of CFO. I shared my experiences with him and asked that if he was hired then I wouldn’t have to report to him in any way or form. He didn’t get the job...

The big question: Have I forgiven him.
Yes. I feel like I have. He doesn’t know. I don’t know if he ever thinks of me, but I do know that on a daily basis I don’t think of him. He is now a non-entity to me. He has no space in my brain beyond where I might place the memory of not stepping on dog poo or rattlesnakes. I doubt I would ever greet him if I ran into him, and I will never intentionally meet him while never intentionally staying away from him.

Let’s put it this way: I have forgiven him, but if I were to meet him thirsty in the desert, I wouldn’t even spit in his direction. I have no qualms with this stance and my Christianity.

For me, it’s a bit different because I have committed adultry, and if I believe in redemption for myself, then I must believe it in others. If I can have compassion for myself, then I must have that for others.

Sometimes if we don’t have hate in our heart and feel indifference towards them, they are not in our lives, how we feel about them is not impacting everyone, I believe that to be good enough. Especially when it comes to infidelity.

My feelings of faith are this: I have been given grace (undeserved favor) because I am divinely loved. The people who have done wrong to me in my life are also devinely loved. Forgiveness as I understand it is meant like many things in the Bible- which is to live your best life.

I believe the Ten Commandments aren’t just there for our fear of sin but for the idea that those specific ones cause so much pain and hurt to ourselves and others. And when we are in that state, we can not reflect back the divine love that lives in all of us, the same way God lives in all of us. We have been sent here to learn to love like he does.

But if you are not hating the AP, wishing him dead, further damaging yourself or separating yourself or others from God’s love, and you can you can live in peace and let others live in peace. That is the function I believe forgiveness serves.

I imagine that it’s the grasping for number four that is preventing number four. But this man is fading from your mind more and more and in time there will be either a natural progression for number four, or something will happen in your life that increases your capacity for it to happen.

Hold it loosely and keep it it in your prayers, and in time it will be answered. But pressuring yourself to feel something that isn’t natural isn’t going to make it happen.

Some people like to write a letter and burn it as a passage forward.

For me, I think adultery is an unforgivable act, it’s one of the only things the Bible cites as a valid and just reason for divorce. I do not forgive the act of it, from myself or my husband. I am allowed to hate the act. But I do feel peace in the way each of us have moved forward, and I love the person I have become since that time and I love my husband without reservation. I cherish the marriage we have built. It’s a past thing neither of us can take back but we can move forward in present, and have compassion and grace towards the people we were when these things occurred.

I don’t think there is a person for you in terms of the AP, and therefore I don’t really think you are holding forgiveness from a ghost. So give yourself some grace. What he did wasn’t okay, and that’s just a truth. But in time if you keep praying I think you will hear His answer on this.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:21 PM, Saturday, August 24th]

HouseOfPlane, he wasn’t a best friend, he was just a friend. I didn’t hang out with him, but if he needed me for something I’d go to his aid. If he were to die tomorrow, I’d have no real feelings on it other than maybe a higher power decided him being on this planet was causing too many people pain. I don’t lose sleep over his existence nor will I lose sleep over his absence. He’s just a person who has shitty morals. I simply dont feel the need or desire to offer forgiveness to this individual.

I forgave the AP during the 7 years we were in trickle truth. It helped me to feel more at peace. That was before I found out what she had really done. I would have liked to forgive again.but this woman seems to despise me. I think in her mind the only question is whether she forgives me. She did lose two jobs for this offense and is about to be called out again in front of her new boss for trying to create another contact situation

Unless AP owes you loyalty, there is nothing to forgive. It's like forgiving the knife you got stabbed with.

WS did the damage willingly to you. Anger at AP is generally misguided anger deserved by your WS.

I think we all have a responsibility to protect the wellbeing of children in our community. Going after a married parent is irresponsible and cruel.

A knife does not have free will but an adult person does.

I think most people are deserving of forgiveness but I wouldn’t pretend an adulterer has done nothing wrong.

My WW's AP was 7 years older than WW, and held a position of authority over her in her work setting. My wife was a fairly recent graduate of the RN nursing program which used the hospital where AP was a senior Surgical Resident as a place where nursing students could obtain clinical expertise working with the medical staff. When my wife started working full time in the very stressful, tension charged environment of the ER, her AP-to-be had just gone through a number of nurses, X-Ray and clerical staff and wss looking for his next conquest; an entitlement that the all male boys club of doctors seemed to consider just one of the perks which came with the position.
My wife worked on a daily basis with this surgeon and a work/ professional bond formed based on mutual respect.
My wife admits that she found AP interesting and exciting, but claims, and I believe her,that she did not cross any boundaries at that point. However her AP saw my wife as a challenge and an exciting coup prospect to bed a married nurse.
This is where my deep animosity towards the AP originates. He used flattery, attention and validation to lower my wife's defenses, to the point where it seemed a harmless idea to join AP and other doctors on the make in the one call suite of rooms for Jack Daniels and Coke after shift change.
He had found an opening and pursued it until he got what he wanted. Yes my wife was very naive, gullible, too easily influenced and besotted, but had no plan to betray me and our marriage before AP found an emotional opening which he ruthlessly exploited.He had no desire to leave his wife and children to be with this " easy" nurse and told this to my wife, which she chose to disbelieve, having soon fallen in love with him. There is nothing more despicable IMO than a man who uses his authority, then sophistication, experience and social positions to foster feelings of love in a married woman whom he has zero intention of marrying.
This is why I can never forgive the POS, and even dead he has my deepest contempt. The fact that he found religion as his cancer spread changes nothing how I feel about him.His selfish carnal desires almost destroyed my marriage and I will always hold him in contempt.

goingtomakeit,

You said;

7. I know in my heart I have not forgiven him. I feel like there is not enough there in my brain to latch on to forgive. Like trying to forgive the wind for blowing your papers all over the lawn.

What would it look like to you for you to forgive him?

Thanks for all the feed back.

InkHulk-Bro, would love a beers, bros and Bible night. What is holding me back-I am not quite sure. I think I spent so many years hating and fearing him. I was afraid he would come back and try to reunite with my wife. I was afraid of her leaving, and trying to take the kids with her. I hated him for replacing me in my wife’s heart, and he really did not care about her ( as evidenced by his quick departure on his DDay). Forgiving my FWW was a monumental lift, and I don’t think it was possible on my strength alone. Today, it’s like I am just emotionally exhausted with him. The kids are safely off on their own lives, and FWW and I are at peace.

Masie-thanks for the pep talk-he no longer has power over me. I too have come to the conclusion my FWW and the OM are both broken people. They both are not to bright as they thought the solution to their marriage problems resided in each others privates. While for him, I can only guess, but if he ever did get a clue, he may realize he hurt his BS way more than he hurt me, and that realization must hurt a lot.

Straight up-I hope the best outcome for your mom, and I hope you find peace.

Copingmybest-I can understand your feeling completely. I was never asked for forgiveness by him. It makes it hard when you don’t see contrition on their part.

Bigger-thank you for your story. So sorry about the business betrayal. I am glad you were able to grow your way out it.

Hikingout-such beautifully written. I have not prayed for my forgiveness of him. Prayed a ton for relief, and prayed for my FWW, and for her to love me. Maybe God is not quite done with me on this. Maybe a letter that he will never see is a good exercise for me. I do take exception with adultery being unforgivable-I think God forgives all sins. We don’t escape the consequences of what we did, but nothing is unforgivable.

Still-it is sad when the AP is unrepentant-but that is on them, and they will have to answer for that when they make an account of their lives.

This0-yes, FWW is the one who had the obligation to me. And if it had not been him, it could have been another. However, he knew she was married, and had children, and knew this could have ended very badly for her, and yet he selfishly went ahead. So I do hold him responsible for his selfishness.

Vocal-I hope you find peace.

Jason, good question-I want to be able to hear an infidelity story and think "I am so sorry for both the BS and the WS. " Right now, I struggle with empathy toward WS. I know they are broken, but I feel "you deserve your misery." I think the WS is the surrogate for OM.

May sound harsh, but 100% of this betrayal falls on my FWS. She, and she alone, owed me the same level of protection and fidelity that I gave her.

The AP is a nonentity to me, I don't invest any emotion around him, even at the time of the affair, to give a shit whether he lives or dies, in peace or not, I simply don't care one iota about him.

If he came to me and asked for forgiveness, I'd turn him away and tell him to never come back, and tell him that he matters less to me than a stray dog or cat (I like dogs and cats and would readily take in a stray).

He can seek forgiveness from his wife and make amends on someone else's time.

I do take exception with adultery being unforgivable-I think God forgives all sins. We don’t escape the consequences of what we did, but nothing is unforgivable.

Let me express- I don’t think there is anything unforgivable in Gods eyes. I think he loves us without condition.

I guess what I mean is as humans, I don’t think I will ever soften about what happened. i will l

Always look back and think it never should have happened, and I will always hate that it did.

It’s more hate the sin not the sinner sort of thing that I deem it unforgivable.

Some of my feelings stem from having a family member murdered years ago. I think there are certain hurts as humans that never totally go away. Those are the ones we will shed in our afterlife, just like those who can not walk will walk. We are not meant to be perfect, we are only meant to do our best to remove the obstacles we have towards love.

And for me, the young man who committed the murder- he is like the ghost you describe. He is a bit 2D for me. I don’t spend days actively hating him or wishing bad things to come to him. I can only hope he has grown and changed and works to make amends by using the rest of his life for good. But, taking someone’s life I can’t ever be okay that happened because that family member will never join us as a dinner table or for a reunion or have a wedding or a child or grandchildren. It robbed him of so much life.

Infidelity is much the same in the years it robs from us. I think it’s okay to say "that should have never happened, I can’t forgive that it did". But do I feel I have gone on to make amends and grow spiritually and be redeemable? Yes. Do I believe that God loves me as much as he ever did? Also yes. And do I believe my husband has done the same and is a gentler, more connected, more patient version of himself.

The problem forgiveness with the murderer or the ap is they do not stay in our lives to make amends and for most of us we wouldn’t even want them too. Their redemption (if they reach for it) occurs outside of our watching. And in certain ways our ws grows in front of us and can help us soften our hearts as a result.

I have great compassion for the pain someone is in to have an affair. I can even apply that to a certain degree with his AP. But I do not feel I owe the ap something, or the person who murdered my family member. As far and I am concerned I believe that is between them and God and the people in their lives because they are ghosts in mine.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:02 PM, Sunday, August 25th]

In my case, I very quickly realised that no forgiveness was in order. I'm a very forgiving person by nature (and professionally, I'm a teacher :-), but my thought process was the following:

1. If my WGF's AP had been fully aware he was hitting on a woman in a committed relationship (in some countries we'd have been considered a common-law married couple), then he simply lacks the moral fortitude to process and appreciate any manner of forgiveness in this respect, even if given. I'm not even going to dignify what he did with any emotional reaction.

2. If he had been misled into thinking ours was a dead and finished relationship (of the "I'm only staying with him for the sake of ..." type)*, then he's as much a victim as a perpetrator. Laws of clemency do not apply :-)

* It wasn't - to my knowledge, at any rate.

"if I were to meet him thirsty in the desert, I wouldn’t even spit in his direction."

In all likelihood there are more AP’s than I know anything about. That said, they were the gas that took down our house (marriage) but exwh was definitely the flame just looking for a house to burn down…a heartache waiting for a place to happen.

I can say that the known AP’s really don’t cross my mind any more. Good luck to them. Their lack of moral character will catch up to them.

The ones I struggle with are the unrepentant affair supporters who thought it was so funny that he was cheating and risking my life. The ones who actually and actively plotted my physical, financial and emotional demise. Despite the teachings I do believe in to do good to my enemies, it would be a hard thing for me to even spit on them if they were on fire much less do them good. I don’t drink beer ink hulk, but the theological discussion sounds interesting. My now fiance talk about this topic some. It’s a deep topic.

I don't really think about my EXWW'S AP. The funny thing is that I walked passed him at the recycling centre not three months ago and I had this niggling feeling that I knew him. Then it cam to me a few moments later.funnybthst he fails to make a lasting impression on people...

Some people are just unremarkable.