SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So yea, been around for a little over 3 years now. My IC session Sunday I told my therapist that I have finally accepted that my wife is not going to change, or move as close to change as I had hoped she would. I do still love her but she is still selfish. She puts her needs above those of our marriage and me. She agreed to start IC after her heart condition was worked out but she told my mother that counseling won’t do any good. She said she simply doesn’t want to talk about anything related to the affair. She acknowledged that I still need to and she will listen but not enter into deep conversation. This I have to accept if I stay with her but sadly it will leave me not getting the emotional connection I’d like from a partner. At best, I feel we will be great pals who occasionally have sex. I ache for that deep connection and know that unless she has an epiphany she won’t be that person. In the last few weeks I have browsed dating sites just to see what was out there as I’d truly like to have a partner to enjoy life with but the whole idea of stumbling into someone who isn’t "crazy" (sorry about that, we are all crazy in our own ways I guess) seems thin at best. I know I can be perfectly happy alone, I have a lot of great friends and tons of activities that give me joy, but still, to have someone to share that connection with would be nice.

Well if you are perusing dating sites then I think it's time for you to separate - so that you are free to do so at your leisure. Just because your partner cheated does not mean you can carte blanche engage in questionable behavior. Even if it's just curious looking some people would find that a betrayal - I would find it more along the lines of considering betrayal and/or leaving and if your are considering leaving to the point you are checking out what is out there, it's time for the talk.

The thing that is weird about this whole process is that you really can't know what will happen. My WH 3 years out was not only not a safe partner - he was more likely to push me off that metaphorical bridge than tell me the truth about how he felt or empathize with me in any way that was remotely helpful to me. After 3 years of dealing with him and his half-truths and total lack of emotional support, relevant introspection, or desire to actually work through the mess he created with me, I left. I could have written what you wrote about your WP. Low and behold my leaving was the que to my WH to decide there was something wrong with him AND that he wanted to fix it or at least figure out what his problem is. He also had been to IC before I left and apparently he spent the majority of the time complaining about me and talking about the AP like she was some unattainable goddess or something. Who knows - but it wasn't working and I left. He then decided to get his shit together and do actual work with an IC for the last almost 4 years. The change is palpable and although no longer married, we now date. Who would have thought 4 years ago? (Answer: Not me).

I tell you this because IDK what your WP is going to do or not do - but it sounds like you have reached the point where what you've got now is not enough. I don't blame you - IDK what it would take for me to go back in time to where you are now but it would likely involve saving a life or something as there is NO amount of money that I would take to go back to that nightmare.

So - have the talk with your WP. It's time. Separate. It sounds like it's time for that too...and see what happens. Moving forward will feel strange at first - but it gets easier. Really it does.

Copingmybest

Welcome to the Club of the "almost reconciled" - It's "take me as I am or take a walk . . ."

Tough choice to make - question is - which is the "bad" and which is the "worse than bad"

I keep thinking of a book by Bill O'Reilly "Who's looking Out for YOU?"

More than twenty years ago, when I went back to college, I worked part time at a supermarket. A young woman who worked there described how one of the guys who worked there had asked her on a date. She asked her brother if he thought she should go. He said no, absolutely not. She asked why. Had he heard bad things about the guy? He said no, he didn't know anything about the guy. He had said no because if she felt she had to ask him if she should go, she obviously had doubts and misgivings. And if that was the case, she should not go on the date.

That story stuck with me as an example of listening to our inner voice, and knowing how to understand it when it speaks to us. In what you are saying, it sounds like your inner voice or your inner self knows that your WW is not right for you, while your logical mind finds reasons to remain with her. What you want is a genuine connection, and the fact that you are turning to dating sites suggests that at heart, you know your WW is not capable of making that connection with you. The fact that she refuses to discuss her affair suggests that she is not capable of making an honest connection with herself.

If a person cannot relate to themselves honestly, how can they relate to anyone else honestly? Is it possible that you have understood this at an emotional level, and that it has led you to look elsewhere for a potential life partner?

The questions for your WW, to try and get her to start addressing her issues, would be something like, "You were capable of mentally, emotionally, and physically making an affair happen, and yet you say you are not capable of talking about it. Why do you think that is? Why are you capable of doing things that you are not capable of talking about?"

Is it possible that the disconnection within your WW makes you feel like a connection between you is unlikely? Do you think that is worth raising with your WW, or do you feel like you have accepted it, and moved on? If that is the case, moving on is probably the best bet for you.

When it comes to marriage, I think about the draft that occurred in World War 2. In World War 2, tens of thousands of young guys were drafted to become soldiers. Some of them excelled, and took to the role naturally. Others did their best, and tried to fit in, and do what was required. And others deserted, or spent their time ducking down and just trying to stay alive. Marriage is the same. Some people are born to be great married people. Others have to work at fitting in to the duties and obligations, but they manage it. Others effectively desert their post, and cheat. Not everyone has the capacity to be a fully performing married person, just as not everyone had the capacity to be a good soldier. The marriage ceremony does not change that.

At a very simplistic level, this forum is full of the marital equivalent of good soldiers and deserters. Can a deserter become a good soldier? Possibly, but they have to 'see the light' before that can happen. If your WW is refusing to own what she did, it is hard to see how she can change. And that is a good question to ask. "Do you want to change?" Followed by, "If you won't own what you did, how can you ever change?"

That puts the proverbial ball into her court. Avoidance is not a solution, for either of you.

ThisIsSoLonely. I looked at a dating site to find options for myself. I have always feared leaving the marriage. I feared the losing a partner, I also feared the loss of 1/2 of what we've built together. We're at the age where we should have been thinking retirement and if a split happens, then it will be like starting over trying to build back to this point. That being said, I'm 99% sure this marriage with the elephant always in the room just won't work, not for me. When we have our talks, she keeps telling me that she can't fix me.

M1965, that was a very insightful description. I feel like she's a deserter and I'm the fighter. Her lack of fight makes me wonder just what the hell I've been fighting for the last 3-1/2 years. False hope I guess. I always thought she'd turn that corner. I sometimes try to share wise notations said from members on SI but she always says she doesn't give a darm what anyone on here says. 😟 Sad thing is, all she's doing to avoid dealing with the affair will be exponentially worse for her should we split up. She will then have to deal with her coworkers, close friends, family, and children finding out. I can see that going very badly for her, but that's not my concern although the thought of that has held me back from pushing past her. I think the time has come to not keep thinking of what's best for her and shift to what's best for me.

Thank you all for your input.

[This message edited by Copingmybest at 8:41 AM, Tuesday, July 30th]

I understand your mindset.

I think the time has come to not keep thinking of what's best for her and shift to what's best for me.

I would argue that your posts suggest you ARE thinking about yourself. You say:

I fear losing a partner. I am approaching retirement and want to keep my assets and life

vs.

I want a real partner

You want both of these things, so how to choose? I believe that checking out dating sites is not necessarily the slippery slope, but it does reflect a duality that should not exist in marriage, a 'deciding not to decide.' If you are checking out dating sites, it's time to talk to your partner and tell them you are so unhappy that you are checking out dating sites.

Have the conversation.

I didn't do it, and it allowed me to hide from myself. I hid from the fact that it was ME keeping myself stuck in a bad M, not my H. He was a selfish, cheating ass, but I was the one too weak to tell him that and to leave. I caused my own misery by not owning up to my weakness. I needed to put my energy into changing me, me, me and not the M.

I actually had an IC say to me, "You denied him the chance to know the true repercussions of his behavior. He suffered no consequence for his actions because you instead acted out just the same as him. If you had instead said, 'I'm going to start seeing someone,' he might have woken up. But regardless, you would be on the moral highground. Instead, you hid your true feelings and kept him from the consequences of his actions, all while lowering yourself to his level."

Don't be me. Live honestly. Face your demons.

If you are so miserable that you are looking at dating sites, tell her that. Tell her you see your own red flags and it's time to separate. Let her live the consequences of what she has done and is continuing to do. Necessity is the mother of invention, so maybe she'll grow up out of necessity. But either way, you will never regret living openly and honestly in truth even though it will be hard. The hard thing is usually the right thing.

My IC session Sunday I told my therapist that I have finally accepted that my wife is not going to change, or move as close to change as I had hoped she would. I do still love her but she is still selfish. She puts her needs above those of our marriage and me. She agreed to start IC after her heart condition was worked out but she told my mother that counseling won’t do any good. She said she simply doesn’t want to talk about anything related to the affair. She acknowledged that I still need to and she will listen but not enter into deep conversation. This I have to accept if I stay with her but sadly it will leave me not getting the emotional connection I’d like from a partner.

Copingmybest,

I feel I could have written this with the exception I just passed the 2 year mark. My wife has even had a health issue (cancer) that put recovery on the back burner. One difference is that my wife "dances around" her unwillingness to talk about her affairs or do the work. Occasionally, she lets her facade slip and "says the quiet part out loud" about not wanting to talk about her affairs and just "throw it all in the air and move on".

I have heard so much about "Marriage 2.0" or building a stronger bond coming out of infidelity. I told my wife after multiple D-Days I wanted us to become more intimate and "become one". I felt that is something we had always been missing. What a great gift I was offering her IMO. But the selfishness and shame are too much. She would rather take the "easy way out" and just be "roommates with benefits". One of may greatest pain points of the affairs is they happened many years ago. I was robbed of choices including moving on from her and her cheating and finding a "true life partner". I am retired already and I struggle with "giving up my lifestyle" and going our separate ways. Is there someone better out there? Most days I think there HAS to be since I scraped the bottom of the wife barrel. But what if I move on to even more "crazy"? I can certainly empathize with looking at dating sites and wondering….

I don’t have answers either. My wife just finished her last round of chemo. I will give her grace and the opportunity to show me who she is now. To date, she has been the same old selfish, avoidant person she has always been (just not actively cheating). Certainly not "life partner" material. Is she even "roommate with benefits" material at this point? TBD. I certainly don’t want to continue in limbo another year or two….

M1965 said:

If a person cannot relate to themselves honestly, how can they relate to anyone else honestly? Is it possible that you have understood this at an emotional level, and that it has led you to look elsewhere for a potential life partner?

The questions for your WW, to try and get her to start addressing her issues, would be something like, "You were capable of mentally, emotionally, and physically making an affair happen, and yet you say you are not capable of talking about it. Why do you think that is? Why are you capable of doing things that you are not capable of talking about?"

YES!! This goes to the crux of my issues. My wife can’t talk about her affairs without breaking down in shame. She "can’t remember" specifics (like even what year some of the affairs were). I am not looking to have the discussions as much to learn about these things (although they ARE important for me to know the truth of my life) but to see if she can even be open and honest with herself and me. I just don’t "get" how she can "be capable of doing things that she isn’t capable of talking about". This wasn’t a drunken ONS. It was a 20 year "lifestyle choice" full of thousands of conscious decisions and actions to pursue and continue this lifestyle.

If she can’t be honest and open with herself, she will never be open and honest with others. Most notably me. And our bond will remain broken….

Great analogy about "good soldiers and deserters" BTW. It’s a shame the "good soldiers" are the ones who end up getting shot in the heart….

Thank you for that post ImaChump. You certainly tugged at my heartstrings on that one. It’s reassuring when someone chimes in and responds exactly how I’m feeling.

Coping, You say fear is keeping you stuck. I suspect that's true. You know your fear. You don't know your courage - yet. Look for it. It's in you already. You can do difficult things, even when you're scared. If you can't find it, ask your IC for help.

You have the courage to stay unhappy. You can use that same courage is available to do what you need to do to be happy.

You have great advice and I do think your thinking is already clear and logical.

There is nothing lonelier being in a relationship where you are made to feel alone. As long as she believe you will accept this the more she will settle in.

I think having this open dialogue with her, relaying much of what you have here will allow her to understand you are not accepting it. And having it out in the open will prepare you to be more transparent as you begin this transition. It does allow for her to have a change of heart, and if not it allows you to continue on the path you are currently on knowing you have been honest and have done all that was in your power to reconcile the situation.

I think it will give you more freedom to be in the open about it and that in itself may be transformative enough to identify courage as a tool towards happiness much as Sissoon has already stated.

At this point you really have nothing to lose. This isn’t a marriage you want, and by being open with that it will allow a new path to be walked.

Thank you for this thread. I can relate on so many levels. I'm 60 this year and fear losing all that I have worked so hard to achieve over the years. My home, which I love deeply, would need to be sold if we split. The thought of him taking any more of my joy fills me with rage. I know, in the end, it will come down to me being able to let everything go and to start over, if leaving is what is best for me.

He won't go to IC. He is afraid of what will come out. That statement alone tells me he is not being 100% honest with me, so without Iac and full disclosure, I sense my path is going to be a very painful separation (on my side).

We are supposed to talk tonight. He has read the article that describes how the BS feels and what would help us in our healing process. For me, this talk is the last one. I am trying to figure out HOW to be loving, gentle, compassionate, and not accusing/blaming in my talk. I get angry just typing that because I have every right to be angry, every right to not be compassionate or gentle! Why do I have to mind my Ps and Qs?

He disclosed many PAs back in 2010 and wanted to end the marriage back then, after 6 PA over our (then) 22 yrs together. I agreed and he moved out and I did my best to move on... Needless to say, he came back and here we are... 14 yrs of shoving it under the rug.

PTSD is hitting me HARD and I can't stop the feelings from leaking into my every day life. I told him 18 months ago that I really was struggling and didn't understand where everything was bubbling up from to cause me such distress. His response was to turn it around to be about HIS feelings and HIS depression, and I got mad at him. I told him he needs to do IC before we even attempt MC. He refused because he was afraid of what could come out. That right there told me he is either lieing about mire PA, or he is afraid to discuss his childhood abuse (which NEEDS to be done if he is ever to find his own peace!) Now, he hasn't touched me in over 18 months (since I asked him for help with my ptsd) as he firmly believes I need to be the one to make a first move towards rekindling intimacy. I do not understand his logic! My needs were for him to make date nightva priority (and HE do the planning, not I), to say kind and loving things (written notes are great) that express his love and "desire" for ME, to tell me he thinks I am beautiful and to treat me as an equal in this relationship, with 100% of his support for my decisions.

He hasn't said a nice thing about me (my appearance or if he even finds me attractive) and instead says "That top looks nice on you" or "those sandles are great on you"... nothing to suggest he is at all attracted to ME. He does dishes, cleans, does laundry, cooks, watches our grandson, takes care of the yard, fixes the cars, makes me coffee every morning, hangs my clothes that can't be dried, folds my clothes and puts them away, takes care of my elderly relatives, etc... he seems like an amazing husband to everyone who meets him. Yet, he denies ME the emotional connection and empathy, and humility and humbleness that is required in order for me to heal, let alone believe that he even wants ME as a wife.

Regardless, I don't know how to begin our 'talk' tonight. I had a list... but, it got too long and ended up being VERY blaming. He doesn't realize that if he doesn't make steps to find his own peace, I am checking out, although I still do not know what that looks like for me 'physically' since I have been at-home caregiver for past 10 yrs and have nothing to earn enough income to survive alone right now.

Thus struggle is real, and I am grateful there are others who are just as confused and hurt as I have been. I too checked out fating sites and while I know I'd have no problem going out and meeting others, I have no desire to go through the trial and error of finding someone.

I've never posted here before, so I apologize for the rambling... so much is built up. I'm so grateful for this site.

I will add my name to the list of those of us who struggle with our WS’s shame and the limitations it places on healing. With that said, I feel more hopeful than some because my WH is more like at a halfway point in between a spouse who will/wont change, a spouse who will/wont empathize, a spouse who will/wont examine his issues.

Two years ago I wrote a journal entry to myself that if my husband would just admit that he was never going to reveal the truth of what happened at least then we could have a stronger emotional connection because there wouldn’t be this big un acknowledged lie between us. The several month incident had happened 7 years prior. Out of nowhere the next day he revealed everything about the cheating - it had actually been physical, there were massive lies he had held back, he had betrayed us utterly. It has not been an easy road but 80% of the time he is very empathic, understands the pain he has caused, spent a year going through exhaustive detail establishing a 20 page timeline, entered MC, entered IC and started to really work on himself with humility and remorse. Sadly, there is the other 20% where he can backslide, say meanish things, mismanage issues with the AP (who still works in his field in the area) and just generally be a jerk. So I go back and forth, do I stay or do I go. I have the same issues cited by others about giving up our home and our family. Wondering if I really care to go through the process of finding someone new. And then the problem that I love him, I see where his avoidance comes from (a deeply traumatizing childhood). He dropped out of IC (it was definitely not helping matters) but is willing to start with someone new.

I haven’t browsed dating sites but I have actively looked for new places to live and he looked at my phone this weekend and confronted me with he fact I had been looking at places to move out to. He said he understood why I would feel that way and was sorry and he would try everything to get me to stay. So its just a big muddle.

I hope you get some clarity in your discussion. I was not willing to take « i wont talk about it » for an answer and it feels like it was worth it to engage in so many battles to at least get the clarity I have. But I know it’s exhausting and if it is going nowhere I can understand why you would bail.

Maybe filing for divorce and having her served could be the wake up call. If it isn’t, and she just goes about life and your marriage the same as she has been, wouldn’t that give you the concrete answer you need?

T/J - 12many, Your post looks like it could be the start of a thread that would be very useful to you. I expect a number of people would respond to you, but not in this thread, in which Coping has asked for help.

End T/J

Maybe filing for divorce and having her served could be the wake up call. If it isn’t, and she just goes about life and your marriage the same as she has been, wouldn’t that give you the concrete answer you need?

While this is always a valid option, may I suggest a simpler and much, MUCH cheaper route or option, at least initially?

And this is coming from an attorney:

Have you told your WW that you have browsed dating sites? She's been avoidant and refuses IC since counseling won't do any good. If you have not yet disclosed the dating site to her, tell her you would like to set up a time with her to have a serious conversation in a day or two. She may ask to have the conversation immediately but desist and ask for a specific time the following night or the next night when it's just the 2 of you. She's probably going to think to herself 'oh jeez, yet another affair related conversation coming up' and she will begin to prepare herself mentally with all her past defenses, excuses and avoidant reasons related to the affair and the (lack of) therapy issues.

When the time comes, have her sit down (maybe have a bottle of wine opened and a couple of glasses out, if she drinks, to really throw her off) maybe chit-chat for a bit about what each of you did that day to further relax the atmosphere and then calmly tell her it's obvious that your relationship has come to an impasse and in attempt to have a complete honest and vulnerable relationship with each other, you feel compelled that she should know that you have looked into online dating sites recently. Express that you have taken no further steps, no texts, no matches, no swipes not even an account set up but you've been curious. Then ask her "is this truly the type of relationship you want to continue in?" And then shut up and let her talk, if she can... you may want to have a VAR hidden to record the conversation for later examination. Keep calm, if she remains stone faced and refuses to discuss her feelings then stand up and tell her that her response tells you everything you need to know about where you are in your relationship and leave the room. If she blows up in anger at what you revealed, keep calm, and tell her "All I did was look at some pixels on a computer monitor, compare that to what you did with your affair. How is it even remotely comparable?" And then calmly walk out.

All it will cost you is a bottle of wine (hopefully you already have the VAR) It is significantly cheaper than an attorney retainer, filing fees and process server costs... that can, of course, come later after you consider her responses. May want to wait a day or two for her to really filter through her mind what you discussed.

Maybe others have their (better?) ideas about how to have the come-to-Jesus moment with your wife.

Your WS sounds just like mine did post-infidelity in the first year after the A finally ended. All these things your WS is doing are tools of manipulation - to manipulate you into conforming to whatever it is that makes them comfortable.

My "come to Jesus" moment with my WH, who was equally unwilling as the OP's WS to do what I needed, was pretty simple.

* I told him I did not see any path for us to continue with him refusing to address his and our issues, while clearly mentally blaming me for not being able to get over it.

* I told him my attraction to him had waned significantly, because he no longer felt like the genuine caring person he had been when we met (or appeared to be) and as a result the desire for physical intimacy we used to share was gone, for me. And while I'd been trying to cultivate it I just didn't want to anymore.

* I also told him that his version of our post-infidelity relationship was not fulfilling enough for me to stay. AND because I had been listening to him tell me that in many ways (his shutting down, his unwillingness to open up about himself, his unwillingness to put aside the shame and defensiveness and to stop making it all about him) - it was clear this was all he was willing to give post infidelity, and it just wasn't enough for me.

I told him in no uncertain terms I was not happy with him - with us - and there was no AP crutch-fantasy-relationship I was comparing "us" to...in other words, the old "it's not you, it's me" excuse didn't apply here. It was him - he wasn't enough. And it was true...it sounds to me like you are in the same place I was.

After about 2 years of IC for himself - about 2 years after I announced I was leaving - my WH told me that when I told him all of this he had a bit of a breakdown (not in front of me lol) because he had lost control...of me. All of his stonewalling etc - that was all to manipulate me into his comfort zone.

I'm not saying your WS will react the same as mine did - but really you NEED to get out of that eggshell limbo bullshit your WS is manipulating you into staying. It's not healthy for YOU. Your WS may decide to join you on your journey going forward or they may not, but OH do I feel for you right now. You will be okay...

ThisIsSoLonely, you have just described in EXACT detail what is inside of my head. The last two weeks of IC for me and my therapist keeps asking me "what if she won’t work on herself" and my response is that "we’re done then" and I don’t have any regrets about moving on. Sure I’ll be sad at the loss of the relationship, just as Ink was when his moment had come, but I’m already looking forward to the possibilities the future holds for me. I was planning to have this discussion with her this weekend when we got back from our trip to her sisters in Michigan, but our youngest son just proposed to his girlfriend on Thursday and the whole family is going out to a celebretory dinner tonight so I’m not going to chance ruining his moment. It’s been this long, what’s a couple more days.

For so many poster here, it is just sad that you/we are married to cowards.

As the BS we have provided the empathy and understanding and most likely safe space for the cheaters to be honest. Coming from a place of wanting to know for the BS to heal — not to condemn the cheater.

As I’ve stated for years, it’s not the affair that kills the marriage, it is the behavior of the cheater after the affair is brought to light that kills the marriage. And this situation perfectly describes that point.

If D is going to mull you financially, then just separate. Move in and live your life separate and apart as though you are D, without having to give up assets and $. Draw up a legal separation agreement and move on.

Stop wasting your time and putting in effort to a marriage or relationship that isn’t working. Life is too short and if people refuse to give you what you want or need, then it’s time to decide whether you want to mske your marriage or relationship a priority.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 4:37 PM, Tuesday, August 13th]

Coping,

So many people on this site ask some form of "When do you know it's time to leave your WS?" or "When do you know R isn't working?" While there isn't a certain numerical term of days or weeks or months or years applicable to everyone, I think your description of how you feel IS when most of us know it's done:

I’ll be sad at the loss of the relationship, just as Ink was when his moment had come, but I’m already looking forward to the possibilities the future holds for me.

When you wake up one morning and think what you said above - you know it's time. I hope your conversation goes as well as can be expected and that you finally get some peace. Struggling through R when you're doing most of the real work is beyond exhausting.