SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's interesting to me how it seems since dday, so much of our marriage comes back to adultery. Surely all the multiple ddays and lies and trickle truth don't help. But I'm curious from others how much they connected a ws's flaws in other areas back to adultery, or how much of a setback that was. I'm finally at the place where if I ever discover any adultery again, I'm 1000% out. That's settled. There will never be another chance. I'm finally healed enough from my codependent tendencies to know that's true. That has a sliding scale, of course. Like, if I find out she's texting a guy but it seems too flirty to me but not outright sexting, well, I'm not sure I'd pull the plug over that. But I just don't know. But I'm now finally very clear in my mind that any explicit stuff, hiding men from me, hiding any contact with ap, or obviously physical infidelity, I'm moving on with no more chances. That's been conveyed to her as well, whether she believes it or not. And I've given ample reason for her to believe I'm a pushover she can always find the right words to pull back in. But I know it's different now than its ever been. I know my mind and settled disposition of my soul like no one else ever can.

But what about other things? For instance, if you're having money fights and they lie about spending, or they say they agree to do one thing or stop using Amazon or whatever, and then fail to follow through? Thar tells me that they still are in a place of being able to be two people (concerned about money and on my team to my face, free spender whose really just going to do it their way behind my back). And that's the same trait needed to conduct an affair. Being a convincing liar is a trait needed to conduct an affair. And I tie it all together if you're still a convincing liar about spending habits. What got me here was a conversation with DD as she was complaining about a laptop she needs and we're fighting to find the money, meanwhile her mom bought herself a new one for her RN classes (needed, but it became a fight because I think she could've made it work until we had the money and she chose to just go open a new credit card). So DD was upset that she's making do with what she has while we try to save the money, while mom just did it her way with zero income and expecting me to pay it off. A few months back, ww had to disclose a lot of credit card debt she'd hidden because she wasn't making enough even while she was working to keep up on the payments. So after examine the bill to see where it all went, and a lot of conversation and assurances thar we were finally on the same page and she wasn't going to use the credit card anymore, I liquidated half our family emergency fund to bail her out of it. She was so remorseful and convinced me that we could finally be on the same page with money, that the juggling act hiding it and the interest on her had finally taught her something. But then DD tells me in our conversation that she was arguing with mom and brought up her opening a new credit card and just buying a laptop when I had just bailed her out a few months ago (she's almost 18, so she does kind of know our family finances a bit), and according to her, her mom just flippantly responded that paying that off was "your dads choice, not mine". And there's the crux of the issue. That shows me two split people again. One way to me when it happens, then another person and attitude entirely fighting with our daughter. And that sucks, but in itself, it's a marriage problem that I'd never leave her over. We fight through it, til death do us part. It's just money. But now I see it in light of her affairs and am totally reminded of her ability to seem so sincere to me, while away from me being someone totally different.

So how much does the affair affect other parts of the marriage for you guys? Are there now deal breakers that never would've been deal breakers before the affair? I know it can't be a standard of perfection. A) I can't hit the standard. And B) she's still a human with flaws and areas we must work through without everything turning into my recourse being leaving the marriage. What about if you've had an addict as a spouse? Does a relapse or hiding that stuff mean you're out? I am not so sure for myself, I'm still working through my deal breakers and boundaries. But I want to set those such that I'm not doodling us to divorce just because she's a flawed human with issues. So it's hard to know where to set the bar on a lot of this.

I apologize if this sounds blunt but I feel I need to ask. Why are you dealing with this behaviour from your WW after multiple DDays?

You echo something I see a lot of BS's on here say: "If X happens again I'm completely done." More times than not, the goal post is moved when X does happen again. Waiting until you feel you've been "hurt" enough to finally put yourself first isn't healthy.

Keep in mind I myself had 2 DDays before I left my cheating partner. First one I forgave because I loved him and I believe in second chances. But we all know this saying. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."

This is an interesting premise. Are you really seeing "two sides of her" or just "her true self" that has now been revealed through the affairs?

My WW actively sabotaged the marriage to justify her affairs. As I look back over the hardships in our marriage, they line up one to one to her affairs. Also, these weren’t "bumps that preceded the affairs". She always took a sledgehammer to thing’s AFTER she started cheating (or at least started the inappropriate relationship).

My biggest epiphany on my multiple D-Days were "who is this person wearing my wife’s face" and "who does this shit". As I have reflected on my life and observed her since D-Day my answers are "it is her, it is who she has always been and likely who she will always be".

Her "factory setting" is to lie. Big things, little things, stupid things it doesn’t matter. The second thing is to avoid responsibility (much like your wife when she said it was "your decision" to pay off the cc not her fuckup to start with).

I could go on for hours with all the behaviors my wife exhibits that are "wayward". Not least of all, not adhering to our agreement to disclose any recovered memories or discovered information about her affairs immediately (she held off disclosing info for weeks because she "didn’t want to have a long talk". Then was "proud of herself" for not continuing to hold back OR lying about how long she had known the new info).

So for me, it is all these personality traits and character flaws that allowed her to cheat. Although not actively cheating, they manifest in other "day to day scenarios" that also make her an undesirable partner. So for me anyway, it isn’t "two sides" or things "connecting back to adultery". She cheated because of "who she is and has always been". I just didn’t see it and connect all the dots until now…..

Marriage is hard and takes work, but trying to R in a M is like riding two bikes at the same time, it takes balance and coordination. It took us a while to separate the two, my W would burn dinner or forget something at the store and fall to pieces, thinking I’m going to D. I had to stop using the A as a weapon against her. Everything in our M was A related she would have a flat tire, it’s because she cheated. I had to level her up in the M, I had to let the wall down and allow her back in. It was only after I started to believe her actions.

If she’s upset with me about something, I want her to have the confidence to communicate it, not bury it while she walks on eggshells. We work on typical M stuff, and we work on healing and growing from infidelity, without trying to bring one into the other.

To answer your other question, any lying, hiding or sneaking is a dealbreaker, it’s the top of the slippery slope.

Marine, I’m sorry you continue to face the disrespect, lying, hiding the truth and downright shady behavior.

I can tell you I almost D my H last year over his betrayal. Not cheating. But something we agreed on and he snuck behind my back and did the opposite of what we agreed to.

💥🧨🤯😡😡😡

Two days later he heard me on my phone talking to my friend about how angry I was. He started to yell at me. I looked him in the eye and said "you want to yell at me for being upset." And right there I told him I was leaving him and moving out. One reason was his betrayal. Second was his inability to admit he was 100% wrong.

Marine I can tell you if I were in your shoes, the moment I found out about the laptop I would have walked out the door. One, your wife didn’t tell you about it. Two, a secret credit card. Three, she STILL thinks she’s dealing with the "old you" that she can just lie and tap dance around.

She made promises she clearly has no intention of keeping.

Her actions don’t match her words.

And for the record we had two more interactions where my H proved to me he would not go behind my back. He actually stood up to the kid who caused the first serious explosion and has told him "no" to certain things and stuck to it.

I hope you can turn this around if you wish to stay married. Otherwise you will continue to be lied to and disrespected. She doesn’t get it. Evidence: her recent behavior with the laptop.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:33 PM, Tuesday, October 17th]

The reason that my H and I resumed MC, and that I'm back on SI after so many years has to do with money and irresponsible behavior. Last year.

He built a hot rod. He maxed a $10k credit card to do it. (The only credit card to which he has access, because he's the spendthrift and I handle the money.) I cannot STAND credit card debt, so I paid it off with savings. He maxed it out again, and paid it with a 401k loan. Then he did it AGAIN and I was DONE. DONE, I tell you. I was freaking out because the credit card was maxed, the savings were gone, my credit cards were starting to rack up because of all this nonsense, and my credit score was dipping. We ended up doing a home equity loan and getting out enough money to pay things off, buy a new AC, fix some other things that were looming, and put a big chunk of change in savings. It's nice to have that money in savings, but my interest rate went from 3.25% to 6.25% and my house payment is a lot bigger.

And guess what? He fucked around and blew up the motor on the hot rod because in that $30k he spent, he decided to save money by not putting in gauges and didn't notice when the freeze plugs fell out or some shit. Now he needs to spend a couple thou to fix it. It's gonna sit until he can make some trades for car parts or get a bonus or something. He's not dipping into savings and he's not putting that shit on a credit card. I will leave him if it happens again. And he knows that. He's sufficiently contrite, and he's done some IC to address WHY he behaves that way.

After some MC and IC, H says that he has a 3-step thought process and mine is more like 36 steps. I think things through. I consider all angles. I foresee potential consequences. He...doesn't. He's much more impulsive than I am, and MUCH less risk-averse, but he's trying to add steps to his decision making when those decisions affect me too. MC says that many adult children of abusive alcoholics are like this. His dysfunctional, passive-aggressive mother WAS living with us, and we asked her to move out. That helped him a lot.

He's also not particularly concerned with long term consequences, such as the effects of smoking. He'd rather smoke for the rest of his life and die younger than give it up. I've told him many times that I won't be the one pushing around his oxygen tank when he's old and can't breathe.

Everyone around me vapes, and I had started that crap too. I was having trouble kicking it and I asked him to help hold me accountable for it. I could tell he didn't want to. He'd say things like "Don't worry about it. It's okay for now. We're going through some things. (IC.)" But what that really means is that he'd rather have me as his smoking buddy because then I won't be on his ass for HIS smoking. He said, "Look, I'll be your partner in crime all day long, but I'm not your accountability buddy." That was a big lightbulb moment for me. He's allowed to live a risky life if that's what he wants to do, but I don't have to sanction it or join him. I haven't vaped in over a week. Something about him saying that helped me stop.

Many, many years ago he wanted a motorcycle, but we didn't have the funds for it. He said that he would quit smoking and use that money to make the payments. I agreed, because I wanted him to quit. Lo and behold, a few days after he bought the bike, he was smoking. I called him on it and this MFer denied that he had ever made any such deal. I was like We seriously almost divorced over it. And I learned that one should NEVER make deals with an addict. Their addiction will win every time.

So yeah, I can totally relate. He's a flawed human, just like the rest of us, and, thankfully, he is willing to work on his flaws. If he ever stops being willing, I'll be out of here so fast that his head will spin. I don't expect perfection, but I do expect shit-owning and introspection.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:22 PM, Tuesday, October 17th]

I've been where you are Marine.

I think it is the blinders coming off. It takes lying and being selfish to have an affair. It's probably highly unlikely that a WS suddenly became those things the day they decided to cheat. Most of us (not all) probably now look back and trace the entitled behavior throughout our marriages.

Not everyone of course. Some WS's may have gone through a crisis that sent them spiraling or life just beat them down enough to warp their thinking. IDK.

But in my marriage, after the affair, I had to acknowledge that my husband's entitlement and selfishness was always there. Then it grew. Then bad things happened to him and it grew some more. Eventually, it grew to a monster that he let out of the box. That monster destroyed my family.

You can't unsee that. I'm not talking about holding a grudge and throwing it in the WS's face. I mean that now we know about the monster they nursed and fed. We hope that they are doing the work to kill that thing once and for all. But when they lie, or sneak, or act entitled - we know the monster is still some part of them. It does take time to banish that monster for good.

The monster might not cheat again but as you've grown and changed you might be realizing that "not cheating" isn't the whole goal. You want a partnership that is equal and respectful. So you're response isn't "oh she had an affair so now I can be really mad about anything" but rather "the affair has shown me what I want and need in a partner." She's not yet meeting that.

I’m just 4 months post d-day but I’ve already decided and told WH that the old, shitty behaviors I tolerated because he still treated me well are no longer acceptable. He tends to be lazy with housework, wants us to host parties and holidays but doesn’t want to put in all the work, isn’t interested in helping manage the money but will complain when we can’t buy certain things. Although I’m seeing his neglected mental health likely contributed to those things, now that he’s aware it’s his job to attend to that. So far, he’s stepped it up big time in all of those things and admits to not being a team player. It’s obviously very early out for me, so everything still remains to be seen if this is true change or desperate attempt to get me to stay. My bullshit tolerance is quite low right now though and I’m realizing that I put up with some things for far too long.

Thank you all for some very thoughtful and helpful replies. A lot of awesome perspectives. And it also helps me feel less isolated and alone in these battles.

To wanderingghost in particular: that could be a whole other thread. But yeah, you're right. All this strikes me as much more art than science. There's not really a "right" procedure for everyone. It's the eye of the beholder, much like in art. I think for me it's multifaceted. Kids play a big role. Wanting to see her change and a dogged hope that our story could still be what we always dreamed it would be at the end. Finances play a role. A lot of that are things that are pretty common. But for me in particular, I've had to put in a lot of work on myself to break some chains in my life. For instance this feeling from somewhere that I "deserved" the affair due to my flaws as a husband over the years (which she knows how to play into and wrap me around her finger and I'm just now starting to be able to withstand that). A codependent fear of being alone. My confidence being shattered after all of this and this deep feeling of unworthiness and like this is what I deserved for some reason I still can't put my finger on. I had ballooned up to my highest weight ever during her affair, lost a lot of my vigor, and I looked at AP like, "well yeah, of course he could steal her. I'm garbage compared to him". And I had to go through it and start to see that as untrue and the flaw of being adulterous as hers and hers alone. That's a part of why I say I'm where I am now when I wasn't before. I had a fear of being alone in a small apartment and unable to have anything to ever offer anyone again, so leaving felt like a life sentence of loneliness and celibacy that reduced my options to either staying in the abuse of adultery and lying or go be alone forever. It's taken a lot of work over the past couple of years to get here, but that's a big part of how I found myself in this situation. That and a lot of misguided "white knight" tendencies that put her on this huge pedestal and wanted to save her from something, prove I'd stay when no one else would, somehow prove my love through my ability to accept abuse and wait for her to wake up. I've had a lot of fucked up thought processes operating in the background that I didny even recognize over the past half decade of infidelity hell.

It's all the same shit, brother. The same issues that lead anyone down Infidelity Lane are the same issues that have been tripping them up for most of their lives.

Betrayed spouses are often no different, in the sense that issues we have will affect how we deal with Infidelity, or any other challenges in life.

People will accept untruths about themselves. Unlearning untruths about ourselves is fucking hard.

You mentioned being healed enough from your CoD tendencies. Do you believe you've got a handle on those tendencies? Or do you believe it will always be a struggle?

It seems to me, from what you write, that your WW has no desire to own and fix her shit. That's very common, unfortunately. Until she's ready, willing and able to do so, I cannot imagine your situation will improve.

The two different people you see... they are one in the same.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 9:16 PM, Tuesday, October 17th]

Lying is lying, and should be unacceptable in a relationship, particularly post-infidelity. Financial infidelity is infidelity. She has not become a safe partner.

Just listened to a podcast about the term codependent. The interviewer and interviewee agree that that word should be thrown out. Someone that cheated on you, and lied to you, and manipulated you, has abused you. It’s made you half crazy and that’s why you think you’re codependent. I’m guessing that by yourself, you would do perfectly fine, but being married to someone who lies routinely keeps you off balance. Please look at yourself as a person who was emotionally abused and go from that.

You describe lying about financial infidelity - infidelity. Lying to you, your daughter, and herself is the thread that's common to adultery and financial cheating.

One of my R requirements was no more lies. It was easy for me, because my W had decided to tell the truth (at least as she sees it) before I asked the crucial question, and she has followed through. Your W isn't following through. Not only is she lying to you; she's also placed her desires over your daughter's needs.

That's a big problem, and it doesn't bode well for your future together. Most people don't change overnight, and you've already come a long way. From what you say, though, your W is not a great candidate for R, and I hope you address that more directly some day. That's not meant as criticism - I know it's much easier to tell a person what to do than to do it.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:26 PM, Wednesday, October 18th]

Affairs never happen in a vacuum; it’s almost always part of a pattern of recklessness, selfish, and immoral behavior.

Therefore, it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that your wife, in addition to being a serial cheater, is also committing financial infidelity. The two very often go hand in hand.