SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Really struggling today. A brief background, it all came out at Easter he'd been having an affair a couple of years. I'd suspected a long time, I don't know why I didn't say anything sooner. Too scared maybe.
So we cried talked etc, he said it was over. I've since found out it wasn't. He just got a 2nd phone and made a show of leaving his first phone where I could see it. A month or so later I discovered emails, again there were tears and talks. Another month later discovered yet more emails. Him basically saying he'd be there whenever she wanted, as she actually finished things with him.
More tears.
More talks.
This week was when I discovered the 2nd phone. Contact ended 2 or 3 weeks ago, but he still had the phone. He was beside himself saying it was over and they hadn't been in contact. But doesn't seem to understand keeping the phone means he was keeping a back door open. Having seen timings for phone calls and messages, and emails to his friend (not to her) I can see he never had any intention of finishing things. She finished with him when she discovered we were having sex as he'd said to her we weren't.
Do I just accept it's over, despite it not being my husband's doing? I actually told him it was time for a divorce when I found the phone but have once again given him a chance seeing as there's no evidence of contact for several weeks.
I feel like I'm going mad. He's done nothing to make me trust him. I don't know if I'm being stupid, if even things have finished I'll feel so insecure and stressed from the constant deceit I'll never be happy with him again. But right now, I can't see how I'd ever be happy without him either. It's awful. We're coming up to our 25 year anniversary. It's hard to give up on those years which were happy till now. He can't give a reason for the affair, he says there was nothing wrong with our marriage. It just happened. I find it hard to believe.

Firstly so sorry you are going through this. He sounds like he would have carried on seeing her if he could so that is not great. You should be his priority and the only woman in his romantic life. Have you told him you are not prepared to be an option? This is new to you so its okay to be unsure how you feel. Its horrible to say however he maybe still has feelings for her. You need to start setting the agenda he cannot just carry on like it never happened. MC may help, I am currently doing that with WH

Number one is to look after you.

HoneyB, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's a familiar scenario to me - my "DDay" was after our 25th anniversary. My husband had been having a 2.5 year long affair. "It just happened" is what he told me at first, too. For the first 2.5 months, we were in false R. I had to threaten divorce. I spoke to a lawyer and got myself mentally prepared for splitting up. I gave him one last chance on condition that he do therapy, and it took a lot of sessions and time before he was able to start detaching from her.

It took some reading, too, for him to understand how he and she eroded boundaries and allowed friendship to cross over into something inappropriate. We had a good marriage. Even he says that the affair didn't start because he was unhappy at home. Now he says he was an entitled jerk and thought he "owed" it to himself to explore his feelings for her because they were so strong and maybe she was the "the one." He has finally started to pull his head out of his ass and realize how he's been deluding himself this whole time. I think he's maybe 50% out of the "fog" in terms of not lying to himself. We did some marriage counseling, too, which has helped but not as much as I hoped.

I did a lot of soul searching about why I was staying with him. Have you done this? For me, it's not the history or the memories of what we were - those are dead to me, honestly. It's more practical - we have kids who will be off to college in a few years, I'm disabled and can't support myself at the moment, and we would take a big financial hit if we split now. I am giving the process time until our kid graduates and hoping he can truly see clearly by then what he did. I'm also hoping I get healthier and can work again at that point. Then I will make a decision on whether to stay or spend my "golden years" (*bitter laugh*) on my own. That said, I often wish I could leave him in some way that wouldn't be messy. Our kids and immediate family and friends don't know anything about the affair, so "not messy" is an impossible fantasy.

At 4 months out, we were in a very rocky place. It's totally understandable that you're struggling. You will probably continue to struggle for years based on what I've read. I'm only double that time, and there are many days when I cry and grieve what we once had. Processing that loss, even if things get better with the marraige, is very painful. I'm also in therapy, and my therapist says that grief comes in waves and doesn't heal in an orderly fashion, so go easy on yourself.

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 5:03 PM, Tuesday, August 29th]

I am so very sorry. I had been married for 20 years when I found out about my husband’s affair; it’s beyond devastating. (And his was only about six months, though I could see myself being in your shoes if I hadn’t happened to find out). Like your husband, mine also maintained that there was nothing wrong with our marriage; it "just happened."

You do NOT have to make a decision right now. He has messed with your mind an incredible amount, and his lying is egregious. I also think you’re correct in seeing red flags—she broke it off, not him, he kept the phone, he kept on in the affair even after discovery, etc.

His words are absolutely meaningless right now. Even if you both want reconciliation and he does everything right, You will not be able to have any confidence that he’s a safe partner for a long, long time. My husband has been fully invested in reconciliation, but it took me over two years to get to a place where his affair wasn’t at the forefront of my mind in our interactions, and I’m still assessing whether he’s a safe, honest partner.

If you can step back from him emotionally a little and assess your options, you’ll probably be better for it. Talk to a lawyer. See what divorce would look like. Try to envision it for yourself. Paradoxically, wrapping my head around how I could create a happy, stable life for myself and my children without my husband empowered me to make the choice to try reconciliation, because it was an actual choice, not me just clinging to the relationship because I feared the financial, practical, and emotional unknown.

Take care of yourself. Try to exercise each day. Treat yourself with nourishing, healthy food. If there’s a hobby that gives you joy, do it. It’s hard to make yourself when you’re in the middle of relationship trauma like this, but it’s doable.

Do you have children? How is your financial situation? Do you have a support network of friends and family?

Breathe and take stock. Find your inner strength. It’s there. ❤️

First, As happen in some good Ms. Shirley Glass says it's when the WS lacks boundaries.

Second, I'm concerned that the A ended because ow got fed up with your H's lies while he was lying to you.

I agree that you don't have to make a decision quickly. You can give yourself time to develop your requirements for R, and you can give yourself time to get your H's buy-in (or not) to your requirements.

I agree that you can't trust your H. It's good that you understand that - but what are you doing to test your H's honesty? What do you expect from him in the way of building trust?

*****

We used to talk here about requirements for R; that was years ago. The outline used to be:

NC - no contact
Transparency - WS keeps BS informed of location, companions, and activities at virtuallu all time; BS has access to WS's media (computer, phone) at all times

Honesty - answers all questions truthfully, no more lies

IC for WS - almost universally accepted as a requirement by BSes here

IC for BS - if/when BS wants it

MC - controversial - some BSes argue MC only after IC has taken hold; others argue a good MC is useful earlier. A 'good MC' deals with the BS's thoughts and feelings about the A before anything else and places responsibility for the A on the WS, not on the M or any supposed 'unmet need'.

Other requirements as negotiated - date nights, sex, chores, etc.

I based my thinking about R on those requirements because I thought they were great.

I actually told him it was time for a divorce when I found the phone but have once again given him a chance seeing as there's no evidence of contact for several weeks.

I think you need to tell him that you're back to being uncertain about what you want to do. Then you need to consult an attorney, implement the 180, and make him sweat. He needs to feel the consequences of his choices and you need to reclaim your power. IC for you would be good, too.

Odds are, he'll go running right back to her if she reaches out. Really feeling what he would lose if he does that could help him make a better choice.

Sisoon’s list of criteria for reconciliation is excellent, in my opinion. But I also agree with Sacred Soul that making him sweat a little isn’t a bad thing. I offered reconciliation too soon to my husband. I also didn’t have a sense of what criteria to put on it, though I knew enough to say that I wasn’t continuing in the relationship unless the affair was over and he committed to 100% transparency/honesty.

In your case, I would be inclined to tell him that up until now, all his actions have shown are that he’s more committed to his affair and to his lies than to you. He never took one step to end anything or to volunteer transparency and honesty, so you need some time to step back and assess whether you can continue in the relationship. As you figure that out, he has the opportunity to show change and commitment by doing all the things on Sisoon’s list, plus anything else that you think is a necessary criteria for reconciliation.

He’s on trial for his relationship, and it doesn’t hurt to make that clear. He should behave accordingly. If he doesn’t, it’s very telling where his priorities are, and will help you come to a verdict.

You are in what is called False Reconciliation. Because he continued contact and reoffended. They say it isn't the A that kills the M but what the WS does after the discovery of an A. When all was said and done after I experienced False R I wasn't the same no matter how bad I wanted the M. My xWS also wasn't remorseful and very selfish. Eventually I lost respect and fell out of love. There is only so much a person can go through.

I think you need to tell him that you're back to being uncertain about what you want to do. Then you need to consult an attorney, implement the 180, and make him sweat. He needs to feel the consequences of his choices and you need to reclaim your power. IC for you would be good, too.

I agree with this ^^^. He needs to have consequences and I would not do Marriage Counseling (MC). Get help for yourself. Your WS will need to get help for himself. If down the line you decide to R and he has shown great strides in changing and making amends and showing actual remorse and absolutely no contact with the AP then you can revisit MC.

I'm sorry,but he's had you in false R since dday.

He's done nothing but lie,and continue to cheat. All of his tears have been to manipulate you.

But doesn't seem to understand keeping the phone means he was keeping a back door open.

He knows this.

No, you shouldn't just accept its over. He's shown you it will start up again,if given the opportunity.

He's doing nothing to become a safe partner.

The bare minimum:

Full access to all accounts and the phone. Passwords included.

Std testing

He answers all of your questions without anger or defensiveness.

He is 100% honest at all times.

He goes to Ic to figure out why he cheated. Right now,his excuse of it just happening is bulshit. Thousands of decisions go into starting an affair. Add in a burner phone? This was very deliberate.

He is accountable for his time away from you.

He throws away anything he wore with her.

He is proactive in healing the damage he has caused you, himself, and the marriage.

And anything you need to begin to feel safe.

Your job is to take care of yourself, and watch his actions. Is he moving mountains? If not, there's your answer.

Is this woman married? Have you called her husband, to inform him of the affair?

Offering an attempt to reconcile is a gift. He's spit in your face,over and over. Not all marriages can be saved. Up to now,he's not shown any reason to believe he's reconciliation material.

He saw your devastation,and continued the affair.

You don't have to tolerate this abuse.

I suggest the 180.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:02 PM, Friday, August 4th]

For reconciliation to even begin, you must first recover from this trauma and heartbreak. Recover then reconcile as Sissoon usually says.

You can't start to recover until you have full, honest disclosure of the affair and where your spouse stands.

Not to split hairs but you weren't in reconciliation. You've barely had time to stand back up let alone recover, heal and then start to repair the marriage.

As long as your husband pines for the AP (and it looks like he is by leaving that back door open and flat out telling her he'd be there whenever she wants) he is still in the affair.

You can't recover while he is active in infidelity (even if it's "just" in his heart and mind) let alone reconcile.

So what do you do?

Lots of good advice above. You need to start protecting yourself emotionally and financially.

The modified 180 is a good place to start. Ask him to move into the guest room and create your own safe space in your bedroom. Stop wife-ing him (taking care of him, cooking, laundry etc) not as punishment but to stop you from feeling small and used. No sex. Again not as a punishment but to protect you from the very confusing feels about sex after an affair and to protect yourself from STDs. See an attorney. Not to file but to find out your options and perhaps feel better about your financial future.

Practice radical self care. See your friends, talk to family, take up a hobby or anything that gets you out of the house and away from the pain. It's healing to be with those we love or do something we enjoy or simply be out in nature. Mother yourself. Kindly and with total dedication. See a therapist if you can.

As for him, I'd flat out tell him that he has betrayed me so long and so hard that I am no longer sure I want to be married to him. That I'm taking space to heal myself and figure out WTF just happened to my life. He is free to go pursue his AP but it won't be as your husband - kindly leave if that is your (his) desire. If he cries and begs and pleads, tell him he needs to see a therapist to figure out who he is and what he wants because as of today, you don't believe one word he says.

I'd make it clear that this space is not for him to run around and act a fool and you expect him to treat you with the respect and dignity a wife deserves, even though he has shown very little aptitude for that. He better start TODAY or he will make YOUR choice much, much easier.

Don't play here. Don't waiver. Don't coddle or counsel him. He is treating you like an option. Don't be one. Draw a nice big circle around yourself and keep him out of it. He knows how to win your love. He knows how to make amends. Every adult human knows how. It might not be easy but we all know how. He'll either start taking those steps or he won't but you protect yourself and get healthy in the mean time.

Edited to add: Tell other betrayed spouse if there is one. Don't help him hide his dirty little secret. It weighs on people with morals.

[This message edited by TheEnd at 8:41 PM, Friday, August 4th]

@Gracy, I know he has feelings for her, he told me. That he still finds her attractive and is "very fond of her". He says it's hard to adjust. I'm sure it is, but he doesn't seem to have made any atempt to! I've said so many times I'm not up for an open marriage so he has to end it in his mind and move on from her. I've said I'm not his plan B, I should be his only plan!

@No thanks. It sounds a familiar situation. I did say to him that I knew what I would do if we split up because I'd thought about it and talked to my sister about it. I suppose I could see a lawyer just so I have some evidence to back it up. It should be a very simple split though. Sell the house share the profit (though paying the rest of the mortgage off can come out of his share!) And that's it really. We don't have children, I have my own pension.

As for reasons for staying, I do really love him and can't imagine life without him. I love him as much as I ever did, even after what he's done. I haven't really felt angry just sad, confused, heartbroken, worthless. I have asked myself so many times, why can't I hate him? It would be easier if I did. When I think of what he's done, I do think what an absolute selfish a hole but I don't hate him.

@Grieving To start with I was coping quite well, but it's so much harder now with all the revelations that keep coming out and knowing at no point as he actually tried to end things. He seems so genuine when we talk, he cries and says he feels terrible and that he's an awful person for putting me through this. That he does want us to stay together and that we can be happy again etc etc. But his actions just don't back him up. He keeps saying because they haven't been having sex, he thought it was OK to stay in touch. I keep saying it's not, and having read a couple of emails between them where she's said she's signed up to a dating site and is moving on, he has said he'll always be there as her plan B. And when I point that out he just shrugs and says "well I can't argue with you cause that's true, I did say that". But then goes on to say he knows it doesn't look like it but he does really love me and wants us to stay together. I'm very close to taking the therapy step. He can pay for it though!

He's just come down so I'll answer everyone else later. Thank you for the replies, it does help. X
BTW, as people have asked, she did have a boyfriend but finished with him after it all came out. I don't think he ever knew (well he might have suspected I don't know). I dint know if she did that to make it clear she was serious, but it didn't work. Then she discovered we had been having sex all along, even though my husband told her we no longer had sex, and she started going on dating sites.
What is the 180? I'm British, so don't know it.

[This message edited by HoneyB at 9:34 AM, Saturday, August 5th]

@Sissoon The trouble is, how do you know he's being honest? You can say it's a requirement, which it obviously is, and he can say he's being honest. But that doesn't mean he is being. My husband has obviously not been honest.
I did have a Ray of hope this week though, we talked again after the 2nd phone discovery, and the next day he said it was probably a good time to tell me that a monthly meeting he's been going to the last year or so, actually takes place during the work day, not in the evening. He said the last 3 times he's sat in his office but obviously prior to that he'd been going to see her at that time. It felt good to get some honesty at last.
I do think he needs some kind of counselling. His thinking is messed up and self absorbed. I think he's not up this self dialogue to justify things to himself for so long, he can't see what's reasonable any more. I keep saying "if I told you my b-i-l was doing this to my sister, what would you think? Would you think it was OK? And he admitted no, he wouldn't.
I mentioned having access to his phone etc but it never happened. He would show me every now and again, but of course he had his secret phone. It's also how I discovered their still emailing when I asked to see it. He blocked her on his work email but not his personal one.
If he goes out I asked him to video call me from his friend's phone when he arrives and leaves so I could see where he was. He leaves his phone at home. His phone is always on show. But if course he had his secret one. I read some emails to his friend though moaning about restrictions and towing the line, and getting brownie points for getting home early etc. I don't know if it's male banter or he really doesn't sympathise with what I'm going through and see that this is to keep me sane!

It's not male banter. It's disrespect.

He keeps showing you he isn't reconciliation material.

180. See an attorney. Stop acting like his wife. No cooking, laundry,or sex. No spending time talking about your day. No going anywhere with him. Indulge your interests. Have him sleep in another room. He will either pull his head out of his butt,or he won't. Either way, you will feel better.

Hon, there have been no steps forward. He's being abusive.

Information on the 180 is in the Healing Library. Also, there are some pinned posts at the top of the JFO (Just Found Out) forum that you may find helpful.

...how do you know he's being honest?

I asked lots of questions. LOTS. For months. I asked the same question multiple times periodically. I asked for the same info in various different ways.

My W's answers were the same no matter how or when I asked the questions. That was a sign of honesty.

In her answers, W always took responsibility for her thoughts, feelings, and actions, even when the answer showed he in a bad light. That was a sign of honesty.

Her non-verbal communications were 'congruent' when she answered - tone of voice, facial expressions, the way she held herself all seemed truthful while she answered questions.

The questioning got me reattuned to my W's verbal and nonverbal comms. My gut often told me I wanted to ask more questions, but it never told me she was lying by omission or commission.

I also recommend searching the web for indicators of lying vs truth-telling. In the end, though, you've got to develop some faith in yourself to heal. Listen to your gut....

It’s not male banter. It’s a glaring sign that at best, he has no understanding of the destruction he’s wrought, or at worst, he’s just biding his time until your vigilance goes down so he can cheat again.

Of course you love him—that’s ok; it’s understandable; it’s natural. You have been his loving, committed partner for many years. But he has not returned that love and commitment. You will find your anger at some point. It’s buried under sadness and fear right now, but it’s there, and it’s justified.

You can love him and still recognize that he’s a terrible, unsafe partner. You can love him and still draw boundaries and forge a life for yourself. You NEED to do those things to give yourself any shot at healing and a happy life, with or without him.