SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Christ, these past few days...

I spent Saturday pretty much permanently pissed. I was still steaming a bit from Thursday and then Saturday morning WW presents me with this list of "ground rules for fights." They were pretty stupid. A mix of "don't do that thing that you've never done in a fight" and "if you don't talk about my affair I won't tell you all of my justifications."

But by the time Sunday came around I was feeling a lot calmer and I realized that I didn't care about her rules because they were rules for a fight and I didn't want to fight. So I told her to tell me if a conversation started feeling like a fight and then I'd abide by the rules. But we were going to have conversations about the past and the future that did not become fights or we'd not be able to have any kind of reconciliation.

So yesterday I reiterated that I didn't want to burn her in a divorce and told her that I'd done the math and I could do a cash out refi and buy her out of the house (but going from less than 3% to 8% is murderous). Then we had a frank discussion of changes. It was good. She told me I had been pretty much entirely different from the last year and meeting her expectations. She's done what I needed for us to build trust. The big issue has been that our bedroom was mostly dead; occasional oral sex but actual sex was practically nonexistent. She'd been entirely unable to get in the mood or if she did get in the mood, she'd have intrusive thoughts about things I've said and boom mood dead.

I talked to her about intimacy vs sex and how we'd lost basically all of the intimacy we used to enjoy. To illustrate my point about how bad we'd fucked that up, she said "like cuddling on the couch while we watch TV?" That's sweet but it's hardly intimate. So we set aside time. We lay in bed curled into each other as I massaged her back, neck, glutes, scalp. Let's just say that the rest of that story is none of your business.

We're on the right trajectory at least.

We're on the right trajectory at least.

I don't see any right trajectory in your post. All i see is rugsweeping and hysterical bonding. This is a bad trajectory.

What has she done to build the trust?? She doesn't own her betrayal. She justifies her affair. She doesn't want you to talk about her affair because that will only expose her real face. She has done nothing.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 10:25 PM, Tuesday, May 2nd]

if a conversation started feeling like a fight

Then you can take a 30 minute time out to regroup or get your emotions back under control.

she said "like cuddling on the couch while we watch TV?" That's sweet but it's hardly intimate.

It can be intimate. Imagine sitting on the couch with your arm around her and her head tucked on your shoulder. You can talk about how your day went, something you'd like to plan in the future, whisper sweet nothings, or just enjoy the company. It can help build the trust bond back between the two of you.

It isn't sex. Sex does not equal intimacy.

Just answering the question in the title, I don’t think it’s a good idea to try to convince a WS of anything, ever. I don’t see the reason. It’s now their job, actually, to convince you in my opinion.

She told me I had been pretty much entirely different from the last year and meeting her expectations

Translation: Your pick-me dance has been great! Keep it up if you want the privilege of remaining married to me!

I don't see any right trajectory in your post.

THIS

And this..

Translation: Your pick-me dance has been great! Keep it up if you want the privilege of remaining married to me!

This will sound harsh,but you are so hungry for R, that you are accepting the moldy crumbs she's tossing.

The pick me dance is notorious for getting the BS another dday. And,it comes at the cost of your sanity,and self respect.

Also..just so you know..every conversation you have with her about the affair,your feelings,or your triggers, will seem like a fight to her. Don't tell her the conversation ends because she doesn't like the topic. Come on,man.

Agree with the other posters, pick me continues,"meeting her expectations"?? She is not remorseful yet.

I hope I am wrong and she will realize she needs to do some work on herself. Right now she is in control so no reason for her to do anything to help you heal.

But, there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind, you need to reach the truth of this on your own. I wish you the best.

She told me I had been pretty much entirely different from the last year and meeting her expectations. She's done what I needed for us to build trust.

Whaaaaa? WHY IS SHE EXPECTING YOU TO BUILD TRUST? SHE fucked around, not you!!

Feel like I'm in bizarro world....

I had a whole long, reasoned response to folks but I just deleted it all instead.

I obviously don't agree with the sentiments expressed. I don't think I dancing, I don't think I'm trauma bonding, and I don't think I'm rug sweeping. I think what I'm doing has pretty closely followed the advice of Michelle Wiener-Davis in Healing From Infidelity. I think we're in Chapters Five and Six where we're mostly past the crisis stage and looking at what we might build together on the ashes of what we had.

So I tell you what. I'll stop making ya'll read about what I think is good stuff. I'll drop back by so you can unleash the "I told you so's" if things go super bad from here.

In any case, I do thank everyone for their help. April was a shit month for me and you guys and gals got me through it.

I think maybe what you're running into, Bob, is just disagreement with Weiner-Davis. I mean, many of us love the 180 for dealing with recalcitrant cheaters, but not because we're luring our WS back into the relationship. It's more for the emotional distancing it allows us as we work on disentangling ourselves from enmeshment so we're strong enough to set boundaries and enforce them.

If you check out my profile, my own experience was that I caught my fWH out in shenanigans ten years prior to the physical affairs, and what I found out is that if we don't drill down to what the real issues are, they don't get resolved. I misdiagnosed, bought into all this "unmet needs" malarkey, and pretty much let my WH drive R. Of course, next time he found himself disappointed and full of angst, he was off on another cheater spree because THAT was his coping mechanism and nothing had changed it.

I do think it's okay to go slow. There's no need to be rough with your WS in the enforcement of your personal boundaries. You don't have to yell or anything like that. It can be more akin to 'walking softly and carrying a big stick'. My fWH and I talked a lot. Talking is healing. And at a certain point, we had lots of HB too. That was nice. Here's the thing though, my boundaries surrounding the change I needed to see in him were absolute, and since they were about his character and what I deserved from a partner going forward, I was more willing to enforce them. IOW, my boundaries were about ME, not arbitrary rules for a grown ass man to follow. I deserved an adult partner with adult coping skills, one who would be an open book to me, who doesn't tell lies and doesn't sneak around like an adolescent, one who maintains emotional intimacy. It's not my job to change him. It's his job to make those changes and BE that man if he wants to stay. My job was to observe and then make the call as to whether I trusted his progress.

It's easy for new BS's to feel like they're being pushed into accepting advice or whatever, but really, no one else has to live with your choices. You ARE the captain of your ship, as it were. You are in charge, and you are enough. I think most people just want to make sure that you know where your boundaries are and that you're firm in them, so you don't end up repeating some of our mistakes.

So I tell you what. I'll stop making ya'll read about what I think is good stuff. I'll drop back by so you can unleash the "I told you so's" if things go super bad from here.

I wish you the best, I hope you will return when you get fed up with false R. It is worse than the original A because you have a front row seat to the abuse, she no longer stabs you in the back, she stabs you in the heart. She is defensive, manipulative, and is calling the shots.

The 180 isn’t an act, it’s a lifestyle change, it’s being damn pissed off and setting her free, it’s a shock to her system, you head 180 away from her.

You are not in true R. You dabbled with a 180 act and caved the minute she engaged with you. I have seen it hundreds of times here, and personally in my own journey out of infidelity. We will be here for you when you’ve had enough.

BobtheBuilder, the very title of your post gives you away. You are pleading with the architect of the worst circumstance of betrayal you will ever experience, to go ahead and help you feel better via reconciliation.

In her current form, she won't.

She told me I had been pretty much entirely different from the last year and meeting her expectations. She's done what I needed for us to build trust.

Read this again and again. You have placed her on a pedestal whereby she is the one who gets to dictate what sets the left and right of arc for reconciliation. You needed to build HER trust? Please.

So we set aside time. We lay in bed curled into each other as I massaged her back, neck, glutes, scalp. Let's just say that the rest of that story is none of your business. wink

We're on the right trajectory at least.

This is called 'hysterical bonding', and it is a very common theme in the post-discovery of infidelity. WHat you are experiencing, and what many MANY people here have experienced is common. It isn't reconciliation, it's a form of cake eating. Your WW is trying to placate you with sex that she has purposely witheld from you for a long time - but freely gave to her AP - in an attempt to shut you up and accept her bullshit reasoning for the affair.

Ask us all how that goes.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 1:35 PM, Wednesday, May 3rd]

"

I have plans"

.

This should be your go to answer for the 180. Think indifference. You are not there today, but something to work towards. Your WW will notice, but that isn't what the 180 is meant to accomplish. It is about gathering your strength for whatever lies ahead.

Bob, no one is trying to rain on your parade. We're just telling you that it's unwise to plan a parade in the first place when you haven't even made the playoffs and your star quarterback is sitting on the bleachers eating Cheetos and critiquing the other players instead of practicing.

If you're going to have a successful reconciliation, your wife needs to be willing to fight for you and for your marriage... which she has flat-out said she is unwilling to do. Hellfire was correct when she said that any conversation you broach with your WW about the affair will be interpreted as a catalyst for a fight and be shut down. It's fine take a break from an argument when it's getting too head or not constructive (ie, devolving into name-calling) but she's essentially telling you to suck it up and shut up, unless you have something nice to say.

Another thing that stood out to me about your post was how the intimacy discussion and the sex that followed came on the heels of discussing the logistics of divorce and how you would give her a decent settlement by buying her out of the house. The impression I got was that your wife feels more comfortable with you because (a) she's gotten you to back down from holding her accountable and (b) she's been reassured that if you split up, you will give her a cozy landing. It's also pretty common, based on experiences from other BHs on this site, for WWs to use sex as a way to avoid arguments and lull their BHs into complacency. This especially works on BHs who are sex-starved and feeling emasculated.

I'm not telling you this to demoralize you; I'm telling you this because I gave a cheating spouse with one foot out the door the benefit of the doubt and tried to coax him back into the marriage. Minimizing my needs and demands certainly made him behave nicer toward me, but it didn't ease my pain, earn his respect, or win back his love.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:40 PM, Wednesday, May 3rd]

I think what I'm doing has pretty closely followed the advice of Michelle Wiener-Davis in Healing From Infidelity.

In fact, what you're doing is the obverse. Healing from infidelity must be propelled by the wayward spouse. Posters here have been telling you that a BS cannot single-handedly drive this process. You're like a person whose legs are amputated, but who feels a phantom sensation of legs. You are denying your reality and insisting that, since it feels subjectively as if you are walking, that is proof you are walking on dry land even though in reality you have no legs.

I think we're in Chapters Five and Six where we're mostly past the crisis stage and looking at what we might build together on the ashes of what we had.

We can only offer advice based on information that is provided to us. However, based on that, there is no "we" in your mechanical effort to meaninglessly check off checklist items in some pop-psychology infidelity guidebook. Fundamentally, your marriage is not healing. That stubborn insistence that you're at Chapter Six, that's a hallucination, my friend. Reminiscent of the "Self-Taught Man" in Sartre's "Nausea", who believes he can acquire wisdom by simply reading every book in the library, in alphabetical order.

At some point you'll stop chasing your tail and collapse exhausted on the ground. We all wish you would save your energy for more positive, fruitful endeavors. It's painful to watch a brother commit ritual seppuku IRT. I wish you the best.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:43 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

No one in this board wants to say I told you so.

You haven't mentioned whether you got a full written timeline or if she is working on it.

No one in this board wants to say I told you so.

Absolutely, we are not rooting against you, we just know how this ends.

I think what I'm doing has pretty closely followed the advice of Michelle Wiener-Davis in Healing From Infidelity

I've never heard of her,or this book. And, while it's true, we didn't write a book, we here at SI have years or hard earned wisdom. We know what works,what doesn't, what she needs to be doing, and the best way to go about achieving what you want in your marriage. Which, BTW, is what we all want for you.

We didn't study infidelity, and write a book. We've lived it. We've stayed to give back to the community that helped us. We've seen this play out,hundreds of times.

But,if you would rather take the advice of a person who wrote a book, rather than those who were in the trenches, that's fine.

No one will say we told you so. And, we will be here to help,when you want our advice.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:24 AM, Thursday, May 4th]

Oh I get it Bob... I had the same reaction when I came on here (the first time, in 2015ish). "These folks just don't know what me and my WH have. I know this is for real. We'll totally be the couple that makes it back from the edge, better and stronger than we were before."

I've had to come back 3 times since... and that's not all of the stupid little wayward shit he's done, just the major stuff.

We'll still be here for you when you come back.

Oh I get it Bob... I had the same reaction when I came on here (the first time, in 2015ish). "These folks just don't know what me and my WH have. I know this is for real. We'll totally be the couple that makes it back from the edge, better and stronger than we were before."

I’m relatively new to this shitshow (10 months since D-Day 1) but even I marvel when I see "I know my wife/husband". No you don’t. You know your "ideal" of them. I have known my WW 42 years. 10 months ago, I realized I don’t "know" her at all…..

Thank you to all who stay and try to help others learn what you "learned by fucking up" so others don’t have to.