SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Austin

I want to paint one scenario.
It’s your call if you reconcile or divorce, that is totally your call and both are good options. My scenario is based on what might be required IF you reconcile.

I’m a father, and fathers have responsibilities to the lives they create. If you reconcile I would suggest you two do your best to let the child be as big a part of your lives as you can. That could be relatively limited in the first years, or until the child is more independent from the mother. If the mom only wants money, well… that’s fine too. But make the child know it can have a relationship with its paternal family, even if that relationship starts when they reach 18.
Let your kids know of their sibling. Don’t keep this a secret because it will come out. It’s better to take the hit now rather than have the rumor mill churning over the next years.
With time there will be a normal relationship with the mom. Possibly a step-dad and all that. The pain and damage today won’t be there in 4-10 years but the child will be there.

If the above sounds hard or not possible… maybe divorce would be your better option.

Other than that – no matter what you decide talk to an attorney.

He has to take responsibility. But I don't want to be a part of this drama or the fact that the AP will forever be in his life.

I have moved out of the family home. I'm really free of any financial burden. Our two kids are in college and grad school, so no need for child support.

Bigger has a good point above. If you were to decide to continue on in a marriage with your WH, keeping the peace would have obvious benefits. That said, yeah.. there's going to be drama, and yeah, the AP will always be lurking in the background like some toxic cloud. It really does come down to what you want for your future. Just at the point where you guys are about to clear the nest and be able to maybe do some traveling or just be grown-ups together, here he is, starting over as a parent with the obvious financial obligations and, depending on the level of involvement he decides to have, up to fifty percent of his time invested.

Honestly, you've already got all your stuff separated. I don't think you need to feel guilty if you don't want this. Sure, you've got two decades invested. Take it from someone who's been married for four... time flies. You're still young enough to do whatever you want with your life. You could meet someone else and be married twice as long. Who knows?

If R is what you decide on, that CAN be something which works out. But if it's not, you don't have to feel bad about it. Your WH made choices and those choices have created the current circumstances. It's on him. Not on you.

((big hugs))

I have recieved a lot of great advice. I had a long difficult conversation with my husband today. I told him, I couldn't see us getting past him fathering a child. It is a deal breaker for me. The affair was enough. It about killed me, it was the worse pain I ever felt. I uprooted my life and moved across the country and I started from scratch. I literally had to rebuild my life. I'm still building! To throw past trauma into the mix. A child. No thanks. I can't. Not at my age. I love him. I always will but. I cannot be with this man. I asked for a divorce, I am happy we have not been intimate, we were in the stage of becoming friends again. He did come to visit me but he stayed in a hotel, we met for dinner. We talked for hours on the beach. I think we should stop Here. We need to build a friendship. We share two kids. We need to do this for them. He needs time, money and space to deal with his new family. It will be a lot.
He did not take this well. He cried. He asked how he can fix us. He is on a flight to Miami as soon as he can find one. I dont know if this is going to end well when he shows up at my door. He refuses to let go. He'very upset. So I am just planning how to handle him face to face. I can't have a bad outcome. I can't have my kids hurting over this mess again.

Can you see what he's doing is trying to manipulate you to get the outcome he wants? He's still focused on himself and not willing to put you first? He wants to railroad you and ignore your wants, needs and boundaries.

I suggest the following:
Research divorce. Be as realistic as you can. Check online what the laws are like in the state you would file in. Ask around for a good attorney. You probably know someone that has divorced or is divorcing or knows of someone divorcing. Get an appointment and ask your questions. The better you prepare the more direct your questions can be. Don’t fear divorce – it’s a process people survive and many thrive after it’s over. This phase doesn’t mean you are divorcing or have filed. It simply is research before pulling the trigger.

Be really realistic. Our perception of divorce is often shaded by stories about torn-out court cases, expensive disputes, TV dramas and the like. I heard an experienced attorney say that in most instances he can guestimate the likely outcome with 90% accuracy once he has the relevant financial data, and that often most of the cost is about disputes with foregone conclusions. It’s generally a relatively simple formula based on complex numbers. In simple terms: all your life’s achievements and potential are churned into numbers, as is your debt and commitments. This is then divided fairly between the two of you. Somehow however – having half of your financial value in hand always feels less than owning half of what you have now as a couple.

I’m guessing that what you will discover is that divorce will force a lifestyle change, but that change won’t be radical. There will be a difference in income, pension etc compared to what it is now, but that difference will also reflect it’s only you and not both of you. I’m guessing that by knowing what to expect the uncertainty fear goes away. If you were to decide to reconcile the marriage then that would be based on a wish to do so, rather than a fear to not do so.

He did not take this well. He cried. He asked how he can fix us. He is on a flight to Miami as soon as he can find one. I dont know if this is going to end well when he shows up at my door. He refuses to let go. He'very upset. So I am just planning how to handle him face to face.

You don't have to allow that. Just let him know that you don't plan to see him and that if he shows up pounding on your door, you'll have him removed. He won't like hearing that, but tough. Your obligation is to yourself at this point. He made his choices, now you get to make yours.

Leafields has a great point about manipulation. It's harder for people to say 'no' in person. Your WH knows that he's got a better chance of talking you around if he can make you say it to his face. He'll have made this grand gesture of jumping on a plane and flying to your door, and the expectation will be that you fall into his arms and make everything okay for him. If that's not what's going to happen, say so now and STOP his fantasy in its tracks.

When you think about it, one of the most painful things that's stolen from us when a spouse cheats is our agency, informed choice. While the desperation of a WS who wants R is understandable, even flattering, applying manipulation techniques is just another way of disrespecting our agency. I think that a desperate attempt to manipulate an outcome is forgivable right up until it's noticed and pointed out. After that, persistence becomes disrespectful. So yeah, if you tell him not to come and he shows up at your door anyway, it means he's STILL NOT LISTENING.

You need to set a very hard and firm boundary with your WH. Tell him that you refuse to see him in person; anything further that needs to be discussed can be worked out over the phone and through lawyers. If tells you that he's booked a flight, then make it a point not to be home during the time that he's expected to arrive. If he shows up unexpected, tell him to leave and call the cops if he doesn't. Hopefully, it won't come to that.

Another thing you will need to avoid is him using your kids to triangulate and manipulate you via proxy. There were hints of this in your first post, in which he was telling your kids that he was avoiding OW, wasn't seeing her anymore, etc (as if he would tell them if he was still seeing/speaking to her, knowing that they would report back to you). Let your WH know in advance that you're not discussing the particulars of your relationship or your decision to divorce with your children, a part from the fact that it's happening. From this day forward, his relationship with the children is own to manage.

You'll also need to let your kids know that, although you love and care about their father a great deal, you've made your decision and you need them to respect it. Tell them that they are welcome to share their feelings with you about the divorce and anything that they're going through, but that you don't want them to be their father's mouthpiece. They will need to keep their conversations with their father that pertain to the divorce between them.

If your WH (or anyone else for that matter) tries to lay on guilt or make you rethink your decision, just think back to the time of the affair and how coldly and cruelly he treated you. And when you discovered the affair, he gave you a song and dance about how he's in love with 2 women. He's always seen himself as the victim in this; that much hasn't changed at all.

EDIT;add

We need to build a friendship. We share two kids. We need to do this for them.

Actually, you don't need to "build a friendship" to amicably divorce. The only thing that's required (or should be expected) from people who are divorced with children is that they be cordial toward and respectful of one another. Your kids are adults who are perfectly capable of having a relationship with you and him independently. A Bruce Willis-Demi Moore situation where you share holidays and go on vacations together as a family is not only unrealistic, it's also detrimental if your intention is to move on with your life and have your kids eventually accept that their parents are no longer together.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:42 PM, Tuesday, February 28th]

We need to build a friendship. We share two kids. We need to do this for them.

Nopenopenope. You do not NEED to be friends. You need to be civil. That is all.

He did not take this well. He cried. He asked how he can fix us. He is on a flight to Miami as soon as he can find one. I dont know if this is going to end well when he shows up at my door.

I HIGHLY recommend you tell him not to do this. It will not end well if he shows up at your door. Scenario 1) you stick to your guns, he has a hissy fit (or worse) and starts trying to guilt trip you about how he flew cross-country to fix this whyyyyyyy can't you let it goooooo?? (Call the whaaambulance!) Scenario 2) You cave and let this guy and all the drama he brings back into your life.

Scenario 1 also comes with the potential for things to escalate... a lot. He has shown he doesn't respect your boundaries or wishes. Cheating is already a form of abuse... it's a hop-skip-and-a-jump to the next level.

Austin -

You’ve already received invaluable advice. I don’t have anything to add. I just want to commend you, you may not feel this way but I think you’ve responded incredibly to your husband’s infidelity. Even the way you approached reconciling prior to finding out about the OC. I agree with others, you’ve already done the hardest part in separating from your husband. I highly doubt he is worth the PTSD and other drama that would infect your life by reconciling with him. Even after trashing your marriage and all this time that has past since Dday, he’s not remorseful, he’s still 100% self motivated. He’s still disrespectful to you and your needs. I’d tell him that if he comes to FL you’ll just go stay with your friend but seriously let him know his need to think only selfishly is exactly one of the reasons you don’t want to reconcile and if he comes to your home, he won’t find you there. I’m so sorry for everything.

There are so many interactions in a marriage and that’s what makes each one unique. What was your relationship like with your husband through the years? Was it amicable? Did you two really and truly enjoy each other? Was he a liar? Did he seem a little underhanded about things or always pretty honest about most things. How was he to you, during the affair just overall. How was he with the kids and most important how was he with his original family, his parents? All of that comes into play when you start looking at whether you want to repair a marriage or move on.

But I think the most important thing is whether you are able to forgive or not, and I think that is truly genetic. There are some people who hold grudges, my mother was one of them. It did not make her a bad person it was just who she was. On the other hand, my father forgave easily, and that did not make him a better person, it just made him who he was. If you can never get past any of this, and you know you will never forgive him, then I agree with everyone. It’s time to make a move. On the other hand if you have a forgiving nature, you might want to wait a while before you make any drastic decision, which is why I think talking to an attorney about options is what’s important.

I really appreciate the feedback. Much I agree with, some I don't. I'm determining how to handle this situation on how my family will benefit the most.
When I say we need to be friends, it's not friends, let's hang out every weekend, but it's friends in sharing Holidays, future grandchildren. Being okay with being in the same room. Not making it awkward because were "civil" with dry hellos and goodbyes.
My husband knows he has hurt me. He did show up in Miami.I assumed he would.I had someone comment that it could go left very quickly, and possibly become violent,because he doesn't respect my wishes. I have to disagree.He isnt one to be violent. He has never shown violence towards me. I did say he was cold, but in that I meant, he was just not affectionate.He was distant. Never violent. Sorry if I misspoke.
He did show up at my home, he hopped a plane and he was here 7am. I don't feel flattered, I feel rather sad and uneasy.This feels surreal?! He knows he hurt me. He broke my heart beyond repair. I believe he is sorry. But WHY? Why did he do this to Us? I was constantly asking myself. Maybe he fell out of love with me? Met this Young woman he found attractive and he fell into love with her, or thought he did. She seems a bit immature and he seems to be very frustrated by it.
I didn't have to call the police on him. He did show up, he has always been respectful of my space and my privacy. He asked if we could meet and talk. I agreed, because we need to have some closure. I told him why I didn't want to reconcile. He really hurt me, he agreed. I feel the child would be a burden on our relationship and I also feel I would in the way of him being a good father to this child, and his need to Co-Parent with the OW. I don't want a relationship where I have to share my husband, or worry about an affair restarting. I would rather be alone than be suspect of his every move. Or everytime she calls, needs money or if he needs to pick up his son.
I think I would be his burden in developing a healthy relationship with his son.
I was kind and I was gentle with him. I didnt throw the affair in his face. I didn't place blame. He and I were on track to rebuilding a relationship. We were friendly again. I agreed to "Try".

However, that was before the baby came into play.

I think I did a good job of not making it a guilt trip or talking down to him. I was making us lunch in my home and cooking soothes me and I was able to relax and keep my distance and I found the right words. I don't feel the need to be harsh or hurtful even though that's how he treated me when he was sleeping with her.
The fact I don't see him everyday. We live on opposite sides of the country. HELPS! We haven't been intimate in any way since he stopped have with "Me" when he started having sex with her. Which he confirmed.
I think this distance has helped me get my needs across and helped him to be more understanding of my feelings and needs. He teared up a lot. I feel he is remorseful. He did speak. He has be open and honest with me.
The only uncomfortable moment was when he moved in trying to hug me and he was a little inappropriate. I stopped him in his tracks. He said he hasn't had sex, and asked if I had. Which I knew was his way of asking about the man I was having drinks with. Which is completely platonic. He is my neighbor and we train at the same gym. I am DEFINITELY not his type!!!! He's just a super nice guy. That's it.
My husband did apologize for blowing up over the phone at me. He explained he knows that he ruined us. It kills him that he he hurt me, his best friend. He hates not having me anymore, and he takes all the blame. He is in Counseling to figure it all out. Which I commended him for.

Cooley2here posted great questions and I want to answer. Yes. He and I had a very loving and relationship. The kind people would say I envy your marriage. We were best friends we would call and text from work. Surfing, running sailing and working out on the weekends. Going to the mountains to snowboard as a family. We loved cooking! We had a good run!

He was or is a great father. He is very close to the kids. They go to him about everything and I don't think it's strange he opened up about the affair. I dont believe he was sending a message. They don't disclose their conversations with their Dad. It's not my business or place to know.
He has a close relationship with his family. They are disappointed in him. But I believe they will embrace his new family. The Baby will be loved.

I will never tell my kids not to embrace their new sibling. I don't discuss the breakup. I focus on them when I see them. I would never come between their relationship with their father. Its not my place or my business.
My Husband is in Miami until Sunday. I told him that I would file for the divorce and I am not asking for anything unreasonable. He seemed zoned out. He had his head in hands looking into the floor. He didn't want to hear this. He said he can't sign the papers, he doesn't want a divorce. Asked if I would go to counseling with him. If we had sex he thinks he could change my mind. I just said "No" I love him, always will. But there's no fixing this and going back to what we were. But we can respect each other and be good for our kids.
It ended with him saying he is heartbroken for breaking my heart. He loves me. He refuses to let me go so easily. He won't be signing divorce papers. He will fight for me. I think he is in a bit of shock. We both have always hated divorce and we considered ourselves a couple who would be together forever. But he ruined us. In the end he said he needed time. He's hurting. He hates himself. He wants to talk on Sunday before he leaves. He needs to think. I agreed. So now I am speaking with a divorce attorney. This is just so sad. I never thought this would be us.

I'm so sorry you're dealing with this @Austin76. I agree your best asset right now is space away from him.

He is still coming off as extremely selfish. You have been clear and blunt about what you want and need - a Divorce - but he doesn't want that. He won't sign the divorce papers because that's not what he wants. He thinks having sex with you, which you've also shown you don't want, will change your mind. I'm honestly extremely frustrated FOR you having to deal with such selfishness. Wishing you all the best on your healing journey, whatever you decide.

When I say we need to be friends, it's not friends, let's hang out every weekend, but it's friends in sharing Holidays, future grandchildren. Being okay with being in the same room. Not making it awkward because were "civil" with dry hellos and goodbyes.

My parents were divorced when I was a senior in high school, because of my dad's cheating. Afterwards there were separate celebrations, etc. but more recently more together now because my brother is military and we have to maximize his visits and there are grandkids. I've always stated that my parents are "well-behaved." They can sit and make small talk during visits, but they have never celebrated holidays together. They don't reminisce or ask about each others lives, just talk about kids and grandkids. Dad pushes Mom's boundaries at times but she handles it well and either puts him in his place or she steps away for a moment to gather herself.

"Well-behaved" will be my goal when I have to start having those interactions with WXH and wifetress. My DS was a senior in high school at the time of our D and there has been no need for us to be in the same space at the same time. That will change when/if there is a wedding, grandchildren, etc.

We will never be friends again, but I will be well-behaved. He/they are just people I used to know.

I told him that I would file for the divorce and I am not asking for anything unreasonable. He seemed zoned out. He had his head in hands looking into the floor. He didn't want to hear this. He said he can't sign the papers, he doesn't want a divorce. Asked if I would go to counseling with him. If we had sex he thinks he could change my mind. I just said "No" I love him, always will. But there's no fixing this and going back to what we were. But we can respect each other and be good for our kids.

It ended with him saying he is heartbroken for breaking my heart. He loves me. He refuses to let me go so easily. He won't be signing divorce papers. He will fight for me. I think he is in a bit of shock. We both have always hated divorce and we considered ourselves a couple who would be together forever. But he ruined us. In the end he said he needed time. He's hurting. He hates himself. He wants to talk on Sunday before he leaves. He needs to think.

It's commendable that you still want to believe the best of your WH. That says a lot about what a generous person you are. Look again at what you wrote above though. What he needs "to think" about is what strategy to use next on you in order to manipulate you into agreeing not to divorce him. You made a very, and I mean VERY, well-reasoned case for why divorce is the right choice for you. But his response to your exercise of autonomy was flat-out refusal. That's not respect. Respect would have been agreeing that you have a right to decide what you want. Respect would have been prioritizing your peace of mind and your happiness. Instead, he... the guy who fathered another woman's child while married to you ... thought now would be the time to quiz you about your faithfulness.

I know it sounds like nit-picking because, when you think about it, his refusal to comply with your wishes is understandable. Here's the thing though, he ruined his life and his family dynamic and now he thinks that if he could just restore it all, everything will be okay. The problem is that his actions are still self-serving. It's about what's best for HIM, not what's best for you. He still thinks he can fix this by getting you into bed. Isn't that exactly what got him into trouble before?.. thinking he can fix his problems with his dick? And what a magical appendage it must be!

He's sorry, but regret is not remorse. Remorse is about YOU and all the people he has hurt. Remorse is about doing what's right, not what's right for HIM. Remorse recognizes the selfishness inside and seeks to ameliorate it.

This is not to say that regret isn't absolutely REAL. It is, and you can literally SEE the suffering. When you're a kind and generous spirit, it's hard not to respond to that with "fixing", and THIS is the point of my post.... it's okay to let your WS carry his own bags. Just because he's looking at you expectantly to "fix" everything for him doesn't mean that you should or even that you can. You see in his actions just during your last encounter that he's still essentially the SAME GUY who did the cheating. His motivations are self-serving and emotionally immature. You can't fix that. Only he can.

Bottom line... you don't have to feel bad about this. We're not just telling you that to make you feel better either. Nothing you do can "fix" another person. Real change is possible. I do believe that. But you can't make it happen for anyone else. Your WH has to dig deep, find the causes of his selfishness, figure out exactly what his actual values are, build boundaries, develop respect for others, and become emotionally self-reliant. That's a lot to do and frankly, some WS never get it done. But NONE of that is on you. You can't do any of it for him, not even if you wanted to.

Be true to yourself. THAT's something you can do, and it will move you on down the path to real healing better than any other action you can take.

((hugs))

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:00 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

Austin76, first, you really ought to be commended for how you're handling this situation. You picked up and started a new life, you didn't compromise, you've treated with your husband with far more compassion and respect than he deserves, and you still have a lot of empathy for him and the OC.

To clarify, I didn't say you should refuse to see him because I was worried he would hurt you; I was worried that he simply wouldn't respect your wishes and would try to manipulate you... and that's exact what he's doing. I know you felt you needed to see him again for closure, but I think you've achieved all that you can hope for by meeting with him in person and that meeting yet again on Sunday will achieve nothing except give him yet another opportunity to guilt trip and browbeat you into doing what he wants.

There were also more red flags than a Chinese military parade in his behavior toward you during his visit. He once again tried to make you feel bad for meeting with your friend and accused you of having an intimate relationship with the guy, which he has no business doing considering that you are separated and he had an affair with another woman on your watch. The fact that he tried to initiate sex as a way to change your mind was both crass and insulting. It made me wonder if he's so arrogant that he thinks his skills in bed will make you forget that he fathered a child with someone else or if thinks you're an idiot whose judgment can be swayed by his dick... maybe it's a bit of both. His declaration that he will "refuse to divorce sign the papers" (which probably sounded very gallant in his head) is actually yet another of his gross sense of entitlement and how little he respects you.

You don't need his consent to divorce him; his lack of cooperation will just drag out the process and make it more expensive and stressful for both of you. Tell him that if he loves you and wants to show you how sorry he is for what he's done, he can do it by making the divorce as easy and painless as possible. If he refuses, then it's just more proof yet again that he doesn't really care about anyone but himself.

Lastly, I really have to disagree with Cooley2here's characterization that being able to reconcile or not is mainly "genetic" and if you choose to divorce you're the type who "holds a grudge" vs being able to reconcile if you have a more "forgiving nature." There are many factors that contribute to someone's decision to R or D and you carefully considered all of them. In fact, you were willing to give him a chance... up until you learned about the OC, which would've impacted every aspect of your life and is a serious impediment to being able to rebuild your marriage.

And as you pointed out, you had a great marriage prior... but he treated you like garbage during his affair and in the wake of Dday. So if he couldn't hold it together when things are good, you have no reason to assume things will be better now that your relationship has been hammered by infidelity and burdened with a child that resulted from it. If he wants to become a better man, he can start by listening to you and accepting your decision.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:07 PM, Wednesday, March 1st]

If he wants to become a better man, he can start by listening to you and accepting your decision.

Exactly. Let him show you that he is an improved person after the divorce.

^^ Yup. He is still not respecting your boundaries or autonomy. You got your closure and said your peace (piece? never know which it is). Any further meetings just provide opportunities for him to manipulate you.

You are being so strong and generous through all this. We all know how much this hurts, or at least can imagine (thank god no OC in my WH's cheating wake, but only because he had a vasectomy.) If I seem a bit quick to jump on the "he might escalate" bandwagon, it's not for no reason. Most victims of abuse don't marry their partner knowing that person is abusive. All those true crime stories start with a loving marriage, then someone had an affair (abuse in and of itself), then someone dies, either because someone wanted BS out of the way so "twu wuv" could prevail , or because BS wanted out and that wasn't part of cake-eating WS's plan, or because someone was caught in the act and ooops! gun went off, SUV ran over cheater (twice), how did that anti-freeze get in your lemonade?

I never thought my WS could be violent towards me, and he never did hit me, but he sure as hell menaced me as he chased me around our bed during a fight one night.

We all think we know our partners so well, better than we know ourselves.

If we did, we wouldn't be so surprised and devastated when they cheat on us.

His insistence on still doing things his way, of not respecting what is best for YOU, doesn't bode well.

Austin76

You sound like really lovely person. I'm sorry for what you're going through.

Austin,

You are handling this the way you see fit and I for one, trust you. I mean hell girl, you up and moved across the country when you found out he was cheating. You implemented a cross country 180 and built a new life for yourself. That tells me your resolve and strength.

I also commend your grace and kindness when telling him you want a divorce. Things don't need to get ugly. I'd be singing a different tune if his machinations were making you doubt yourself but it doesn't appear that that is the case. Your a grown woman who has made a decision and who, by the history you have shared, has the strength and gumption to follow through.

You had a good run as you say. Infidelity is a cannon blow to our lives but the truth is, your marriage was far more than that. Years of love, joy, children, memories, etc. I respect that you want to honor that in how you end it. I respect that you aren't letting his atrocious behavior (the affair) poison your memories and therefore the love you have/had for that version of your husband.

That's my long winded way of saying I think you're doing great and I respect where you are coming from and how you are handling it.

It's still not easy for you I'm sure. So heartbreaking to have this ending. But you're playing the cards you were dealt and I appreciate your grace in how you are doing it.

Hugs to you.

I don’t think your STBXH is being manipulative.

I think he’s hit rock bottom and understands how much he has destroyed a marriage he now so desperately wants. He’s trying to show you he understands what he did and how much he blew up your life.

I think he is trying anything he can to save this marriage. Unfortunately the new baby has quashed any hope of R.

I hope he doesn’t resent his newborn child for being the final straw that stopped the possible R.

I think you have showed great kindness Austin. And I agree to remaining on good terms for the sake of your children.