SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I have never posted before... And my first go is this very personal and embarrassing thing! I have written this and deleted it over and over again for hours. I am finally posting it because I would really appreciate an honest opinion(s) and – or any guidance.

Jumping right into the deep end of the pool....

He told me he has "done nothing wrong." I am "making sh*t up." "It is not an affair if he didn't have sex with her." "Emotional affairs are not real." He maintains he "did nothing wrong" and I "just need to get over it."

So I asked him to honestly answer the following questions:
Do you look forward to going to work so you can see her, have lunch with her, talk with her, spend time with her, steal away some one- on- one time with her? (Yes.)
Do you want to have sex with her? (Yes.) He even elaborated. (I have fantasies about her all the time. I have sex fantasise about her and about having sex with her. I wonder what it would be like to be with her, to have sex with her, what it would feel like. I fantasise about her moaning my name when we have sex.) He went into much graphic details of his continuous sex fantasies about her and other desires. In addition, to day dreaming about what it would be like to be in a relationship with her.
Do you think about her when you are apart? (Yes.) Again stating his fantasies involving her.
Do you flirt with her at work? (Yes.)
Do you email her and stay in communication with her? (Yes.) He told me he initiate contact with her in person and via emails.
Do you stop working to visit her in her department? (Yes. I like spending time with her. She makes me feel good. I look forward to seeing her everyday. She is the best part of my day.)
When I was trying to work things out between us and you were so resistant. Why was that? (Because I was weighing out my options. If you would just act right and things went back to the way they were then I would stay with you but if not I would go be with her.)
And after answering these question the way you just have, you still don't think you did anything wrong?! (Nope, because I didn't sleep with her. So I didn't do anything wrong.)

Am I overreacting? Am I wrong?

Because it hurts like hell to find this out, to hear those words come out of his mouth so easily. And for him to continue to treat me like sh*t because according to him, he did nothing wrong.

I do keep journal. Although, you just don't forget something so painful!

WOW! That was much more difficult than I even thought it would be! I feel so foolish.

OMG, he's delusional! If YOU were to do all that with someone, would HE be ok with it? Doubtful.

Go see an attorney to find out your options. He is NOT agood candidate for reconciliation. He views you as an option and is, basically, still dating!

Thank you for taking the time to reply. It is heart wrenching but I think you are right.

Twilight, he's not willing to admit any wrongdoing or ANY remorse for what he's done OR how he's made you feel by openly and flagrantly sharing his sexual fantasies about his mistress! Make no mistake, it IS an affair regardless of whether sex has occurred, which I believe has happened.

He is disrespecting you and your marriage. The only way to knock him off the fence is to file. Unless he believes he might lose you, he will continue to cake eat. You deserve better. You deserve to be cherished.you deserve 100% fidelity!

I think you should tell her partner what's going on, too. He deserves to know what's going on with his wife and hopefully put a stop to their affair. Affairs thrive in secrecy! Expose , expose, EXPOSE!

I have no idea how you endured the pain from this very deep emotional affair of the very worst kind.
This man is so insensitive and detached from reality that he doesn't know what a committed relationship is. He's a cruel person acting and talking like this.

I would go 180 on him. Read about it on this site. https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/understanding-the-180/

The Healing Library has a number of areas so you can better understand the consensus feeling about affairs from the wisdom of thousands of others. Read the articles that makes sense and it will greatly clarify the feelings you have.

Your POG is heavily involved in an EA of the worst kind that didn't go PA because he couldn't get it there. It's so bad from his answers that he is probably actively working on replacing you. He has to keep you around until he can close the deal.

I have to admit your case is one of the worst within the scope of emotional affairs that I have ever seen. And it's in your face and sounds like it is still very active.

Do this on your terms, your rules, what you want. Read all about the 180 and take the parts that work. He needs a big dose of that and more likely the door.

You are not wrong and you are definitely not crazy. If something feels wrong, it is WRONG. I'm sure his ego is boosted by having two women wanting to be with him.

I'm sorry you're going thru this.

Thank you for taking the to reply! I do appropriate it. I honestly started thinking I was indeed the crazy one. Thank you.

Thank you rugswept! As you recommended, I am reading about 180 and other topics here. Thank you, it gives me something to focus on and a bit of direction. I kind of feel like I've been swept out to sea. Thank you again.

I know it feels really important right now to get him to agree that what he's doing is cheating and that it's wrong. When you dig into that emotion though, what are you finding? I think it's likely that your need isn't about agreement or about being right, it's about saving the relationship. If he won't agree that he's cheating and that it's wrong, he'll never see the need to stop or to change, and if you accept that, you're accepting that there's no hope for a future with him. It's the end of the relationship or at least the end of satisfaction in the relationship and you wouldn't have to deal with that if he would just take that first step of saying he cheated.

This can be a really immediate feeling, the need to draw that admission from him, but it can kind of leave you stuck in limbo waiting for him to 'get it', like you just can't move in any direction until he does. That's not true though. You do NOT have to accept the unacceptable. It's enough that YOU know he cheated and disrespected you... and that he has no plans to stop as evidenced by his refusal to admit that he's wrong.

I'll be honest with you, I think people can make it through just about anything *IF* they're willing to really work at it. Your WS is telling you in no uncertain terms that he is not. You can only make decisions based on the facts as you know them today, not as you wish they were but as they are. If that has the ring of finality to it, that's because the guy is giving you nothing you can work with. I'm sorry.

((hugs))

Thank you! It is a jagged pill to swallow, but I do believe you are right. My head is still spinning!

I know. There's basically on of two things going on here.. your WH is willfully obtuse, that's obvious, but he either doesn't believe you'll do anything about it or he doesn't care if you do. Both mean that he's taking you for granted in the worst possible way.

He is in the wrong and he is the one that is crazy. You are far from it. Youve asked all the right questions and it seems like he has responded with the truth to all those questions. In this case the truth really does hurt. He clearly does not care for you. You have to ask yourselt knowing that he is willing to choose her no matter what are you able to continue to be in this marriage. Whether he wants to believe it or not you and I and everyone else on here know that he is clearly in an emotional affair. Its just as bad if not worse? It seems like she too may be emotionally attached to him as well considering that she spends ample time with him. I Believe that it will not take them long till it becomes a physical affair. My advice would be get the other partner involved. Tell him that his wife or partner is having an emotional affair with your H. Expose their EA before it becomes a PA.

He is extremely cold hearted towards you and he isnt even hiding it. He has no care for your mental health and how this might be scarring you. He is extremely selfish and you deserve so much better than this punk! I hope you have the courage to leave him so he can wake up from all these fantasies. Otherwise he will never see what he is doing wrong.

He likes his fantasies. It will be others. He's not ready to be a supportive partner. You'll get nothing but pain from him as long as he's this way.

Damn, he's cruel. Does he usually throw this relationship in your face or was it just this one time because you asked?

An emotional affair requires secrecy, intimacy and sexual attraction.

One thing you haven't mentioned is if you asked him why he hasn't been physical with her yet.

It does sound like he is no longer committed to you. If he is committed, he will make drastic changes in his behavior without complaint.

These are examples of risky behavior between oppo sex friends and behavior that should be prevented if the wayward wants to preserve the M/R.

This paraphrased list is from Dave Carder in his book, Close Calls. What ADULTERERS Want You to Know About Protecting Your Marriage.

1. Do you save topics of conversation for your friend?

2.Have you shared spousal difficulties with your friend? (Complaining, playing therapist, my husband/wife never...)

3.Has your friend shared difficulties they have with relationships? (Complaining, playing therapist, my SO always...)

4.Do you look forward to seeing your friend more than you look forward to seeing your spouse?

5.Do you compare your spouse to your friend (why can't my husband/wife be more like...)?

6.Do you provide special and thoughtful treats, food, gifts and cards to your friend?

7.Are you more concerned for your friend's welfare than your spouse's?

8.Do you fantasize about being married to this friend?

9.Do you spend more alone time with your friend than you spend with your spouse?

10.Are you comfortable letting your spouse review all your phone interactions, all texts, emails and voice mails?

11.Do you spend money for things like lunches, gifts and coffee on your friend?

12. Are you and your spouse in conflict over this relationship?

13.Do you lie or manipulate the truth in order to spend more time with your friend?

14.Do you hide receipts, phone bills, mail, gifts and time spent with your friend from your spouse?

15.Do you get angry or accuse your spouse of jealousy when talking about your friend?

16.Have you and your friend developed special rituals and/or places or any experience that you and your friend anticipate?

17.Do you experience a shiver when your friend admits feelings for you, or touches you accidently or purposely?

18.Does your conversation with your friend have sexual or erotic content?

19.Do you or your friend ever use work to date? (Including travel, entertainment, drinks, expensive meals, staying at same hotel.)

If your H has any desire to preserve the M he must cut out all this behavior.

If he doesn't want to call it an EA, fine. He's still disloyal, cruel and immoral. You mentioned he initiates contact with her, if so, he sounds like a real creep, possibly a predator.

Do you know how much she reciprocates and if she is M or in a R?

I'm not sure I have the whole picture yet, but he's white knuckling it with her and callously abusing and mistreating you.

You're going to have to take a very strong stand here. It does seem that betrayed spouses who set strong boundaries and take decisive action are the ones who see their WS most often come to heel.

Also, maybe don't show him the list. It's almost like a guide to having an affair.

I'm very sorry that your WH is doing this to you. Nobody deserves to be treated that way.

It is your WH who is crazy, not you. He's twisting you up over the semantics of what constitutes an "affair." Don't play that game. Everything about what he's doing is a betrayal of you and his marriage whether or not it meets whatever definition he has dreamed up for an affair.

Don't let him blame any of this on you. He didn't start this EA because you didn't "act right." He started it because he has emotional problems and for some reason he wants the attention of another woman to try to soothe whatever is wrong with him.

Implement the 180 and let him know that further contact with this woman is not acceptable if you're going to remain married. He needs to agree to "no contact" with her at all. Whether that can be implemented to your satisfaction within his current job is for you to decide. Set a deadline for how long you're willing to wait. Don't tell him the deadline, just do it for yourself. Then stick to it.

If OW is married, let OBS know that your WH has expressed an inappropriate interest in their W and that they should beware.

It's very possible that he has had sex with her. The number one rule for cheaters is deny, deny, deny. Don't keep arguing the point without proof because it's a waste of time and it will keep his guard up. Quietly dig for proof. Check bank records, emails, calendars, and texts if you can. Check the pictures and apps on his phone. Consider planting a VAR and/or GPS in his car.

Of course, you don't need proof of sex to decide that this man is not worthy of your love and devotion. The fact that he was prepared to leave you for another woman if you didn't "act right" is evidence enough that he's not worthy until he proves otherwise.

Best wishes to you.

I was in your exact shoes. My H’s 4 year Emotional Affair was gut wrenching and like your H, my H never admitted he did anything wrong b/c there was no sex. This was in the late 1990s before the term EA existed.

My H never admitted anything.

After it ended I was stupid enough to sweep this under the rug b/c all be did was stonewall me. It was never mentioned again.

That was my biggest mistake.

Because 15 years later he had his second EA - except this time he had a mid life crisis affair and now wants a divorce.

How we survived that I’m not sure b/c I was fed up and planning to D him.

Your H is living in a fantasy world. Sadly he’s turned to someone else. I lived that hell during the 2nd affair while trying to Reconcile while my H was still cheating. It was nothing short of torture.

I strongly urge you to meet with an attorney to understand the D process. Then get yourself a counselor or therapist to support you - do not do marriage counseling as right now that is a waste of $.

Lastly, read up on the 180. Stop being his wife. He’s disrespecting you. So you need to stop emotionally supporting him. Stop cooking his meals or doing his laundry or buying his food. Buy good for yourself. Not him.

Don’t eat meals with him. Don’t run errands for him. Tell him to sleep in another room or in the living room on the couch. The point is you need to treat him like the enemy he is.

He’s not your H b:c he’s changed. He’s now some guy you are married to. And that selfish person is not your friend.

Maybe had I done this after the first affair there would not have been a second affair.

Fidelity means faithfulness, not just sexual faithfulness. He isn't being faithful to you by his own admission. He's told you that he's completely infatuated with another woman. He is also gaslighting you, driving you crazy.

This means you are completely correct that you are in infidelity and you need to get out. Two ways to do that: he changes or you leave. If you still love him and want the relationship to continue, you can tell him "I love you but I will not tolerate being married to a man who is completely infatuated with another woman and is doing nothing to stop it. I will not be your doormat or an emotional punching bag for you. If you won't take serious steps to change, I am going to do what it takes to get myself out of infidelity". Then you need to do just that. The 180 process you are reading about is a great start.

On the other hand, this situation may have shown you something about him that has produced real doubt that he is the person you want to stay with. He is acting cruel and uncaring but in truth, that is the same with pretty much all cases of infidelity except maybe a drunken one night stand. But this may be unacceptable for you, even if he ends up admitting he was wrong. That is your choice and it's ok to decide this is the wrong relationship for you to continue, even if there is never any sex between them.

The unusual thing about your situation is that he is being candid about his infidelity. He isn't admitting it's wrong, but he is being unusually honest about what he is doing and thinking. It comes across as a bit psychopathic. But if you still want him, perhaps this candor could help you R if he gets his head out of his ass.

[This message edited by Trdd at 2:22 PM, Sunday, August 28th]

There is no way around this as far as I am concerned but this is your marriage. Your husband was not just being mean when he answered your questions he was being vicious. He has shown no interest in your welfare, your pain, your hopes and dreams. He is gone emotionally. Some people call this Limerence. And Limerence is a yearning for someone else but he seems to have everything except the sex and I’m guessing that if she gives him the OK he’s going to have that as well. He’s not holding back because of you he’s held back because of her.

A couple of years ago there was a poster on here who had moved with her husband because of her job. This was a second marriage for him and the first marriage for her after a very long relationship. They had a next-door neighbor, a woman, who befriended them. Little did she know this woman was aiming for her husband and she got him. They played mind games with this woman until it gave her a nervous break down. He was appalled at his behavior but she had become so damaged by their behavior(having sex in the next room while she was dressing for a night out) that she was not able to get over it. The reason I’m telling you this is because even in the midst of his nuttiness he could have still been kind enough to you not to have answered what to he did or what he wanted. To me that’s the same kind of cruelty her husband and this woman inflicted on her

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 2:02 PM, Sunday, August 28th]