SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I consider us reconciled, and my WWs affair was 16 years go, but I’ve been asking her a ton of questions about her affair recently, one of which was would she still have had the affair if her AP had been married (he was single). Her answer was a firm "no way, I would never do that to another woman". I then said "So you would have a moral problem hurting a stranger but not your own husband?" her response was to immediately back peddle and she said something like "Maybe I would have I don’t know. I’m going to have to think about that".

I then also asked her if she would have had the affair if her AP had been clear up front that he liked her and showered her with praise, but that it could only be about the sex. Her answer again was a firm "no way". So then I responded "So basically you were looking for qualities of a stable long term mate to replace me with".

So today I gained a bit more insight into her mindset at the time of her affair. Her deceitful plan was to try and make it seem like we broke up naturally and then make it look like her affair was a relationship that started after we split up. But her plan feel apart, she confessed and her AP was exposed cheating on her with multiple other women. The cheater got cheated on and I took her back like a pathetic cuck and gave her a stable long term relationship, support and love to this day.

I told her that her plan to make it seem like a rebound relationship wouldn't have worked anyway because because she gave me genital warts and I hadn’t ever slept with anyone else. Kinda have to be sleeping with him and me the same time for that to happen.

Having a bit of a shit start to the day with these thoughts.

Obviously cheaters have a totally broken set of ethics, especially at the time they engage in the A. I think even after they heal it's hard for them to put themselves back into the "fog" to give clear answers on what they were feeling or how they would act in such a fog.

All of the plans/fantasies/etc. involved in the A are driven from a sort of pure selfish hedonism (I did it because it felt good, I really didn't think about the consequences). Maybe your wife has said something to this effect at some point as well. Sometimes the plans to run off are to placate themselves that what they are doing isn't really an A since they were "broken up in their mind anyway". Many affairs that are not true exit affairs may be framed as exit affairs by the cheater just because it feels internally like they aren't doing something "as bad".

I'm not questioning the narrative presented by your wife or yourself as not accurate. She probably did plan to run off with him. It did dissolve because of other circumstances (getting found out/him getting found out). It could have dissolved for any number of reasons though, because ultimately it was just another part of her fantasy. It was a plan that minimized how bad she felt about cheating more than anything.

As for how you feel about taking her back, I really recommend "How Can I Forgive You" by Janis Spring and see if she has really earned her forgiveness or if you've offered a cheap forgiveness for 16 years that has resulted in the bottle up feeling of capitulation. Did you ever get individual therapy?

This0is0Fine - I think you hit the nail on the head there. My WW has said it wasn't an exit affair as in she wanted out of the marriage but more that she felt it was too late to save the marriage so she had to take steps to end it herself and wanted to try and do it in a way that would spare my feelings as much as possible. That was her excuse for initially moving out under the false pretext that she wanted to "learn how to be more independent". And her deceitful, long term plan to try and make her affair seem like a rebound relationship afterwards.

Her plan was obviously riddled with flaws. For one she wasn't breaking up with me or filing for D but I guess she thought after she moved out that Id just sort of forget about her or that Id be the one to file for D so it wouldnt be her fault. Which I did not because that wasn't the agreement. She didn't have the courage to tell me that she wanted a divorce because she wasn't sure she did want one. But she felt the marriage was already over because of what she had done and that I'd never forgive her.

Yes Ive gone to probably 3 or 4 therapists over the years but honestly haven't gotten much out of it. It's been ages since Ive gone again. My Mom happens to be a therapist so I do bounce stuff off her but honestly if she were my therapist Id probably fire her too. She hasn't been in my shoes so its hard for her to relate.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 6:29 PM, Wednesday, January 26th]

Why do you consider yourself "reconciled" though? Your WW still doesn't seem to get it--she does not seem to have done enough digging on her own why's. She hardly even seems *regretful*, nevermind truly remorseful. This, and you don't seem satisfied--and rightfully so!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:00 AM, Thursday, January 27th]

Sixteen years later and you are still haunted by her affair. I wonder how I would have been if I didn't divorce my ex-WW? She cheated on me early in our marriage. We continued with the marriage but rug sweep what she did. My feelings for her were extinguished and never returned. I did white-knuckle it until she cheated again. That was that and the marriage ended. Knowing me, I probably would have remained in that state of faking it if she didn't cheat again. I am so thankful that did not happen and I was able to move on. In retrospect, I should never have put myself in that position.

You have made the choice to stay with her and I hope it was the right decision for you. It is never too late to change the course of your life if the residuals of her affair still hold too much of a grip on you. Your wife did throw you and the marriage under the bus back 16 years ago. Her excuse is simply incredulous. It's like saying I robbed a bank so I might as well keep doing it since I will be caught and go to jail. There is no way to change that fact. Has she given you enough to continue with her all these years later? It is a cost vs benefit analysis that most BSs end up doing. It is just too bad it has come to that. It wasn't supposed to be that way and you know it.

[This message edited by src9043 at 6:04 AM, Thursday, January 27th]

I understand your need to know these things. It’s natural. But tell me, is it helping getting the same or similar responses each time?

I’m gonna suggest something here. Maybe it will help. Maybe it won’t.

Assume you know the answers now. Back then, your wife had no thoughts about you or your happiness. She did not have morals at all. She was a cheater and only cared about her own happiness. That is who she was. She’s pretty much telling you that. So accept it. It’s hard I know. You don’t want to feel that way about the love of your life.

She wants you to man up, and grow a pair right. This is how you do it.

Tell her what I wrote two paragraphs above. Tell her you hope to be done asking questions. Your moving on from it. You know all you need to know and this is what you’ve determined. She was a run of the mill cheater back then. Made excuses for her cheating. Had no empathy for what it would do to her husband and only had selective morals at best.

Tell her you are "manning up" now and are going to accept that for what it is. And that you hope she has the empathy you need in order to heal from it.

You can even add in that you don’t feel she’s that person anymore. That you believe she’s learned a lot about herself and you have seen change in her. And you hope to move on with her and make new memories with her.

Now you can just leave it at that. And take this new acceptance of what she was and put it in a container, knowing you can’t change whom she was, just acknowledge it. And then try to find that path to a happy life with her.

But if it were me in your shoes, I wouldn’t be able to leave it at that. I would need something more.

And this is how I’d show her I was manning up and growing a pair.

I would tell her that going forward I need to see her do the things I need to prove that I am whom she loves and desires. And not with just words.

And some here might disagree with these things, but when I really think about it, what I would need is to see her go to further lengths to be with me, than she ever did with her AP.

So here is what I’d tell her after telling her I was pinning who she was on the wall and saying "definition complete".

So now that I have defined what you were and did to me in the past, I don’t need to know anymore. You and your AP were pieces of shit. And you had absolutely no care of how it affected me or his girlfriend. I can’t imagine needing to know anything else about it.

So im moving on. Im looking and moving forward. The question is, am I a person whom you love enough to walk in the same direction with.

So im going to tell you exactly what I need in order to walk this life with you for the decades to come.

Youve proven you can be obsessed with someone and go to great lengths to be with that person emotionally and physically.

We’ll if you want to be with me, prove it. It’s time for you to "man up" here and be someone who will show me the lengths she’s willing to go to be with me.

So I need gestures grand and small. I need to see you finding ways to get in my mind, heart AND my pants in exciting and new ways.

I need the simple and the complex. You put in a lot of energy to have fun and frolic with an absolutely despicable human being. Show me how far your willing to go to be with a good man, a man who has always been here by your side.

And this is not just a one time thing. This is a lifetime thing. I need to feel loved and desired. And I need to know that you’d tell anyone, anyone, family and friends, that you truly love me and are devastated as to how you hurt me.

If you can do that. If you can finally "grow a pair" and do what you stole from me and gave to another man all those years ago, then I think you’ll find that you’ll get all the same back from me exponentially.

But don’t waste my time if you don’t feel it. I dont need someone blowing smoke up my ass just because she’s afraid of losing me as a paycheck. For once I need you to be honest. And if I’m not the man you want in your life the next 40 years, then stop wasting my time and leet me go.

I’m not going to wait very long time until I get my answer. I’m looking for a systematic change to our relationship and what you chose to build into the DNA of our marriage. If I dont see that you can be for me not only a loving wife but one who shows it not just thru easy to say words but real action and demonstration then I’ll be making a decision to move on with my life.

I eagerly await your response. I hope this has given you hope that we can build something better and new and let the past go. If not, then I myself do t have much hope for us.

Then my friend. Stop discussing it. You’ve gotten your answers about the past. You know they are not great. Now that you have them, decide what they mean. Either they mean you can never be with a person who could do, say and think those things 16 years ago and you just have to move on without her.

Or they mean she needs to show you what you know she’s capable of doing, the question is, is she capable of doing them for you. If so, give her that chance. And respond appropriately. After all, being in a marriage is supposed to be enjoyable overall. Let her show you if it can be.

If she can show you that, it may be worthwhile to consider this a truly new relationship with someone who was broken in the past but has worked to fix herself.

If she cannot, you will know rather quickly and the decision will be obvious

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:28 PM, Thursday, January 27th]

Stevesn - thanks for your comments and example letter.

On the plus side, Im confident that my WW has remained faithful for the past 16 years and I have no reason to believe she's cheated on me again. Her actions over a long period of time have enabled me to build up more love and trust. She's also shown remorse over the years, and has said numerous times how much of an idiot she was, how she regrets it, how it will never happen again and so on. We've also had three kids together during the last 16 years, which she often points out as proof of her loyalty and commitment. So it does look to me like she's willing to walk in the same direction.

On the negative side, how do I know that she's not just one opportunity away from doing it again and that the only reason she hasn't done it again is simply from a lack of opportunity? What if we were going through a low point in our marriage and the exact right guy came around once again? I know she internalizes any and all negative things Ive ever said to her, stores those in her permanent memory bank and pulls them out as "proof" that I don't love her and she seems to require constant reassurance of my love and commitment to her. This was the rationalization she used to excuse herself from her A. If Mr. You're My Soulmate did come knocking again during a low point in our marriage, Im not 100% convinced she'd turn that down. She says she'd never have had the first affair if we had had kids and that she is willing to go through hell with me without resorting to cheating again, but there's always that doubt and that thought that it's only one opportunity away. She's also been reactive and not proactive about recovery. So she'll put out a fire if it comes up, but she wont cut fire lines to prevent or reduce the damage. I mean even one case of her proactively asking me if Im ok or reading some book about healing without me asking her to would go a long way for me. I could ask her to do all of that, but then it just hits different and feels coached vs sincere.

I like the concept of dividing her into two different people. The person she was at the time of her affair, and the person she's become today. The person she is today Id like to believe is wiser, less selfish and more open, honest and empathetic. I am under no disillusionment that life without her would be any better or fix my grief. It happened and will be a source of hurt and pain no matter who I'm with and it wouldn't make sense at this time to break up my family unless it were to reoccur. I know if I left her now that it would feel like a big mistake.

WontBeFooledAgai - On why I consider myself reconciled. For many years, most of the time her affair didn't enter my daily thoughts and if/when it did, I could easily accept/dismiss it and move on with the rest of my day. But as Ive come to learn, infidelity trauma has a funny way of resurfacing. A trigger event and reminders made me want to revisit the whole thing with her to see if we could gain a closer level of intimacy and understanding, but doing so has been a double edged sword because the more details and insights I learn, the more upset I get and the more I fixate. Its almost like it just happened recently again. The best way I can explain it is to think of it like a virus that reactivates after being dormant in your body for years.

src9043 - The relationship is worth it to remain for me at this time. Most days have been ok. As mentioned above, we had "healed" and I didn't think about much if at all for a long time. I am just seeking more understanding.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 5:46 PM, Thursday, January 27th]

Ok. But I do suggest you have that discussion about pro-activity. I really don’t like the words she used in talking with her mom. That’s why I suggested that you figure out how to Man-Up on your terms and not anyone else’s.

And that’s why I suggested telling her, when your ready, that you believe that you’ve done all the research you need and that to be honest nothing leads you to believe anything g but that she and the AP were selfish pieces of shit that cared not at all for the pain they were causing their loved ones and only cared about themselves and their own pleasure.

Communicate that The book is closed on that for you and you no longer need to ask questions about it.

And that that the only thing you care about now is what she intends to do in order to prove she is no longer that person and desires you and only you.

Then think about what you need for her to do that. I’m guessing some of it is what I said about expressions of love and affection great and small and that some of it is things you need to really dig down inside you and decide.

Otherwise you’re just stuck in the limbo you now describe. I sense from what she said to her mom that she wants you to be the self confident man she first fell in love with. So if you think that is true, give her what she wants by stating clearly, simply and effectively exactly what you need.

As I wrote, she went to great lengths to give the AP what he wanted in order to be with him. For me, I’d want the same effort exponentially in order to feel wanted, desired and loved.

A half assed effort where a cheating or even formerly cheating spouse only worked in "fireman mode", giving those things only when their partner threatens to walk out the door, would not be enough for me to stay.

And I would give her several writing assignments, the very first one being why you should trust that when things get tough between you again she’s not gonna go spread her legs for a cute face she meets at work or at the gym.

However even a WS cannot know what their partner truly needs unless they hear it from them directly. No one ever expects to be a cheater and I’ve always said the skill to rebuild is a learned one, not innate.

I’m not saying you should have to tell her more than once though. But it’s your life and your marriage. You have every right to tell her what you need and she deserves to know it. You get to decide what you can live with and what you cannot.

If you want to try, I’m glad to discuss more. If it’s not worth it to you, I’ll shut up now and take your lead.

Take care…

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:28 PM, Thursday, January 27th]

Stevesn - thanks very much for your insights.

Last night I stated to her that it was a closed book as far as her affair goes, and what that means to me as far as who she was back then. I told her if she wants me to be stoic and "man up" about it, that what I would need from her is reassurances about why this wouldn't ever happen again both in the form of a list of reasons why it will never happen again and in her actions moving forward for the rest of our relationship. She surprisingly said she doesn't want me to be that type of man, and that she likes me being sensitive, which was odd given her outburst with her Mom and frustration over my resurfaced emotions. I told her that my sensitive character is the only reason why I didn't leave her in the first place, since any "stoic" type personality types would have probably walked away. Im probably one of those personality types that is the absolute worst type of person you could cheat on.

Her list of reassurances given were:

1) It goes against her morals and she doesn't want to be that type of person.

2) She has seen the pain and lasting trauma it's caused me and doesn't want to put me through that again

3) She's not clinically depressed like she was in the phase of our marriage that led up to her having the affair (has been on antidepressants ever since the end of her affair). As she always says she was "not in her right mind" at the time.

4) She values what we've built together as a family and doesn't want to ruin it

5) Is much more satisfied with me as a partner now vs in the phase when she had her affair sexually and emotionally with me (felt abandoned/neglected prior and during her affair)

I also know my wife to not be the type that would engage in a casual affair or ONS, and she requires a close emotional connection to be formed prior to initiating anything physical. So this tells me that the opportunity requirements for her to have an affair are higher that what they would be with someone who has a more casual outlook on sex.

She had a cry last night and just wants everything to go back to normal as it was prior to the resurfacing of my trauma. I cant tell if her crying was due to remorse or just that she's sad for herself. She's frustrated and feels like nothing she's doing is good enough for me. She went "all out" for my birthday last week and got us a hotel downtown as a romantic getaway. She ordered me a new wedding ring after I took mine off last month and told her I considered our wedding to be a sham. She bought the book "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" and says she plans to read it (remains to be seen IF she will read it).

All of the above things she cites as examples of efforts she's putting in to show she's a loving and trustworthy partner that wants to facilitate my healing. But what I tend to do is cut them down by saying things like "Its my birthday anyway, wouldn't you have done something special even if I wasn't dealing with resurfaced feelings?" Or "You only got me that new ring because I took mine off, so its again a reactive thing on your part". Or "You got that book and are going to read it just because I told you to".

Then what she does is gets very frustrated that nothing she does is ever good enough for me. I then have the thought that maybe Im being too demanding and I look at other people who seem to have gotten over this given a similar show of regret and a thorough parsing of everything. Everything else in our relationship has been great aside from this. We enjoy our kids and spending couple time together, we travel, we built successful businesses, and we are all healthy. I already recovered and healed from her affair in the past because it hadn't really entered my everyday thinking, but its re emerged like a dormant virus.

At this point, I think what Im really struggling with is just the fact that it did happen and there is no way she can take it back. Im struggling with acceptance and I think Im having a mid life crisis because I question whether or not my decision to stay in the marriage was the right one given all of this pain thats come back to haunt me like a ghost. But I made that decision a long time ago and the ship has sailed on that course for 16 years. We have three kids, we have built tons more memories, and moved on really. But she will ALWAYS have this hanging over her, like a permanent floating label that says "cheated on me".

Im struggling to forgive again and I cant help but think that she comforted her AP in this way too. She shared herself with her AP in this way too. She affirmed her AP in this way too. She gave her AP this type of sexual pleasure too. She was prepared to run away and start a life and family with this guy and the only reason she didn't is because he ended up showing his true colors. It just cheapens it all.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 3:24 PM, Friday, January 28th]

All of the above things she cites as examples of efforts she's putting in to show she's a loving and trustworthy partner that wants to facilitate my healing. But what I tend to do is cut them down by saying things like "Its my birthday anyway, wouldn't you have done something special even if I wasn't dealing with resurfaced feelings?" Or "You only got me that new ring because I took mine off, so its again a reactive thing on your part". Or "You got that book and are going to read it just because I told you to".

Not that you aren't entitled to, believe me BTDT, but those responses by you are kind of dick moves. Sorry to be blunt about it. They were when I did it, they are when you do it. She's trying, whether effective or not.

When my wife's father passed, she would get angry at what she perceived to be insensitive responses from friends and other family, like you'll get over it, he had a good life, etc. I told her to just hear "We care and we love you and want to ease your pain" whenever they said something, because it was the deeper truth beyond the words. Look for that deeper truth from her.

Im struggling with acceptance and I think Im having a mid life crisis because I question whether or not my decision to stay in the marriage was the right one given all of this pain thats come back to haunt me like a ghost.

It's a very common thing, this much later reappraising of what happened. Seen it all the time here. Lived it.

I cant help but think that she comforted her AP in this way too.

It's who she is. Of course she did. It's how she rolls.

You sound like you feel trapped, like you are not in control of this. Stuck with the decision made 16 years ago.

So how do you give yourself a choice? So that you are back in control again?

Find a way to give yourself a choice.

I like quoting the Dread Pirate Roberts from The Princess Bride...paraphrasing..."Good night, WW. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely divorce you in the morning."

Not that you aren't entitled to, believe me BTDT, but those responses by you are kind of dick moves. Sorry to be blunt about it. They were when I did it, they are when you do it. She's trying, whether effective or not.

As a matter of fact, this was exactly what I was hoping someone would tell me here. Maybe I need to be more accepting of her efforts and stop giving myself excuses to devalue them. Thank you for being honest.

It's a very common thing, this much later reappraising of what happened. Seen it all the time here. Lived it.

Thanks for the empathy here.

Hi gc,

Thanks for the update. It sounds like things went relatively well and that makes me hopeful.

First let me just say that closing the book on questioning does not mean rug sweeping again. It’s more out in the open now, she knows what she did was awful, and you always have the right to reopen the book in extreme circumstances (like discovery of something new and major).

But closing it was for you, not really for her. You already think the worst of her back then and nothing more you found out was going to make your opinion go lower. No matter what her issues, cheating was the absolute worst choice taken by a very broken person.

I think she knows how you feel about it all and expressing it over and over is not going to help now that it’s all out.

I am also glad to see that you asked her to write something like we discussed. And while there are probably and Infinite number of ways she could of expressed how she is going to be safe moving forward I think the reasons she gave were pretty good.

I would like to recommend using the written word as a form of communication going forward with her. I suggest you tell her you would like to do that. Perhaps buy a notebook and use it to write each other. Tell her this is something that will help you heal. Sounds like she’s in with working with you on this type of "work" and I hope she’s being truthful about it.

You asked some good questions in your last post.

I think it’s important that you express to her that recovery is a life long effort by both of you, and you and your relationship are not going to be fixed overnight. But it’s ok to tell her that you’d like to try and build something new and better with her going forward, that’s not based on the past, but learns from it, is more open and honest.

So that said I do want to comment on the good advice you got from HouseOfPlane. I understand how you feel. A true recovery is led by the wayward and not pulled by the betrayed. That’s also a good thing to say to your wife. And with that in mind I dont have a problem with you telling your wife again that she needs to initiate not just when she feels you asking for it but as part of ongoing life going forward. I still like telling a wayward that if they get it right they will get it back as well.

Remember these skills are learned, not innate.

But I agree that when you tell her this, if you like the things she HAS DONE that it’s import to recognize that as well.

I hope you were able to enjoy the birthday getaway at least a little bit. I’m not sure what you thought about the ring and if you put it on, but I’m ok with thanking her for the effort as long as you did not explicitly tell her not to buy you one.

If you haven’t put it on, perhaps you can write to her what you need to be feeling to get to a point when you’d be comfortable with it again.

I hope she reads that book. I’d prompt her only once in the future if you find she is not, letting her know it’s clear her priorities obviously don’t lie with you and that any good will she might have gained by buying it has been lost by not cracking it open.

Lastly, I still think it’s important to explicitly tell her that part of what you know will be constructive in repairing your relationship is showing you that she’s willing to go to far greater lengths to be with you than she was to be with her piece of shit lover.

And while yes that means physically and romantically in ways she needs to come up with far exceeding as she did with him, it is also much more than that. It means doing things for you because she has it in her heart for you to do so, making your life easier, happier and more fun.

And I would also stress it means how she talks about you to those around you both. That it’s almost impossible for you to be here with her right now and you need to feel and hear her acknowledge that fact. You need to feel she’s on your side, not anyone else’s in every conversation she has. On your side more than her own. Her side NEEDS TO BE your side.

With this last one, I’d recommend you consider sticking with the VAR a little longer. I’m hopeful her tone will become more pro-you when she discusses things with her support structure.

With that said, I’d recommend you ask for another writing assignment. If it were me, I’d like to hear her describe in her words what I must be feeling right now. And I’d ask her to write about that. And I’d add in that she write what she’d feel as your spouse if someone else had hurt you the way she did. If it weren’t her that had done something like this to you but another betraying you in some way.

It’s important for her to think of these things and express them to you, and for you to be able to hear them. It’s how to work through the pain. It’s how to get to a point where you can see or not whether you can share a life together knowing that there has been pain in your combined past.

I know this is a delicate tight rope walk. Human emotions always are especially in cases of infidelity.

But to answer your final question, I’ve said here often and will stand by it, I believe the path to recovery and reconciliation, if it’s possible, is through Pride. Pride in the work your partner does. And I even recommend telling her something like that. " If you want me to feel a part of us again, make me proud to be your partner. Make me proud to stand next to you in the work you’ve done to repair the damage you caused. Do that and I’ll work to make you proud of me as well"

Because gc, the truth is, if she can make this gargantuan effort, if she really can drive this recovery, then you’ll be able to look at her and say, that’s something she’s done for no one else. Just for you and herself. And that’s something she did because you were that important to her. You and no one else.

I hope she’s up for it. Time will tell. Just be open and honest about it yourself and your body and mind and heart over time will let you know if it’s enough for you to stand In that spot next to her.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 5:58 AM, Sunday, January 30th]

Ps: in your profile if you turn on allow private messages, I can send you some supporting material.

gc, our situations are very similar. After having successfully rug swept for nearly 18 years, triggers and reflection over entering my retirement years have me obsessively revisiting my FWW's A, how badly I handled it, and how I've allowed it to weight on me for all the years since without really understanding it.

Like you, I've found things that she never confessed to. In fact, I'm realizing that she never confessed to anything that I didn't discover myself. I gave up getting answers from her and followed our IC's recommendation for what amounted to rug sweeping. Parroting our therapists advice gave her an easy excuse to avoid the most painful parts of the process, "He didn't want details." But the secrets she kept went far beyond "details."

On the positive side of the ledger she did a lot of work on herself and I think she understands her "whys" better than I get from what I'm hearing about your FWW. But that's cold comfort given some of my own revelations.

1) It goes against her morals and she doesn't want to be that type of person.

2) She has seen the pain and lasting trauma it's caused me and doesn't want to put me through that again

Pretty much every WS would have sworn to these same things before the A. Oh wait, they did!

These constitute the bar that our WSs found so easy to clear with all the standard excuses. The morals part is easily cleared by either epic love or unbearable pain. Inflicting pain on the BS is easily cleared by a combination of "he doesn't love me anymore" and "what he doesn't know won't hurt him."

It's ironic that my FWW used the "he doesn't love me anymore" excuse (with no real justification) even though she always deeply felt any betrayal in even the most casual relationship.

So the real question is, how has she changed so that those two reasons are no longer a low bar that can be easily stepped over? My FWW says that she would rather kill herself than inflict that kind of pain on me again. But I'd much prefer that she would just leave if she considered that it was a possibility. I don't want her to martyr herself by staying with me just out of obligation not to inflict pain.

3) She's not clinically depressed like she was in the phase of our marriage that led up to her having the affair (has been on antidepressants ever since the end of her affair). As she always says she was "not in her right mind" at the time.

I think this is closest to the meat of it. But it goes deeper. What did she learn about the causes of that depression and her broken mental processes during it that she can use to make sure that it will never happen again?

4) She values what we've built together as a family and doesn't want to ruin it

Isn't this just fear of consequences? Again, every cake eating WS clears this bar with confidence that they won't get caught.

5) Is much more satisfied with me as a partner now vs in the phase when she had her affair sexually and emotionally with me (felt abandoned/neglected prior and during her affair)

This sounds like blame shifting with a bow on it.

I also know my wife to not be the type that would engage in a casual affair or ONS, and she requires a close emotional connection to be formed prior to initiating anything physical. So this tells me that the opportunity requirements for her to have an affair are higher that what they would be with someone who has a more casual outlook on sex.

I'm not sure whether I admire or am saddened by the fact that you can still say with certainty that your FWW wouldn't do something. One of the things that enabled my FWW to get away with her A for so long and also left me living with delusions about the reality of the A for so long afterward was the fact that I thought I knew my FWW so well. I thought I understood her emotional challenges and what she would or wouldn't do in response to them. But that was foolish. Nobody else can know how deep that rabbit hole goes.

[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 2:38 AM, Sunday, January 30th]

Your post reminded me of my own experience with my STBXWW. Like yours, mine had a masterful plan that she would leave me and then they would make their relationship public three months later and claim it had developed organically after our breakup. Hah! Foolproof! What an idiot shec was and still is.

Little did she know that her AP was just a Chad looking for some free fun. When she discovered that he had another hotter and younger woman on the side, she lost it. By that time the cat was out of the bag and we all knew of her secret life. She was destroyed, not because of what she had done to me and the kids, but because she had so easily been replaced. Even writing this brings a smile to my face.

Even now, I drive by the AP's workplace everyday and smile, wondering who the latest idiots are. Next verse, same as the first. Seriously, waywards are a special kind of stupid.

As a matter of fact, this was exactly what I was hoping someone would tell me here. Maybe I need to be more accepting of her efforts and stop giving myself excuses to devalue them. Thank you for being honest.

It sounds like you've always put yourself second in the relationship prior to these recent realizations. You're still learning to insist on equal consideration for your happiness. While it's true that some behaviors are expected or just reciprocal, it's still important to recognize and express appreciation when your WS is trying.

That's an excellent analysis of her responses, S2F.

Not sure how old you are, and the warts complicate things. But, have you ever thought of divorcing after the kids are grown?

Stevesn - thanks again. I like the idea of her writing.

I had recently something similar to your suggestion as to writing about "what I must be feeling" as an empathy exercise with her. I wrote a story that flipped the script so that I was the one that became emotionally and physically involved with another woman and wasn't sure if I wanted to leave her or not but thought she wouldn't care once she found out because I she didn't love me and pay enough attention to me. She didn't like my story so it seemed to serve its purpose. Im also going to ask her how to write how she'd feel if our son's future wife cheated on him.

I did put the new ring on, since I feel she's a different person now. The person she was when she gave me the first ring was insincere and unworthy. Would love to hear any other suggestions and my inbox is open.

Seeking2Forgive - thanks or your insights. Although I don't think Id ever say Id be 100% certain she wouldn't cheat again, I think my odds are far better than they were 16 years ago and Ill take whatever reassurances she can give me.

We think her depression was/is hereditary. She didn't have any outward signs of it until about a year prior to her A. I thought it was situational because she couldn't get a job out of grad school and felt rejected and directionless. She also hated the town we lived in. We moved (for her) and I got her a job interview at the place I worked where she ended up being hired. Go me, right? I thought I was doing a lot for her at the time to show her that I cared and felt like she'd be out of her funk as a result of these actions. She rewarded me by falling in love with her coworker and using his flattery as an antidepressant. She's been on antidepressants ever since and it was a huge improvement.

My wife is horrible at keeping secrets. She is also not the type that would be sophisticated enough to cover her tracks very well. She left many breadcrumbs during her affair that went ignored by me because I was in classic denial and like you I never thought she'd be capable of it.

Im also glad that she doesn't work with men anymore or have a social circle outside of her immediate family.

About her feeling abandoned/neglected, she's used that excuse to blame shift but now realizes that it was 100% her decision to engage in her affair. As someone put it very well in another post, AP didn't owe me anything and there are tens of thousands of potential Chads out there that would have done the same. We do recognize my being gone a lot at that time though as a co-contributing factor. And "a lot" is relative because Im talking about 1 weekend per month at the race track and some late work days. By comparison, my Moms husband leaves for weeks at a time and my Mom doesn't mind.

Justsomeguy - our stories do sounds similar. Yep, she had a premeditated, long term plan for making it look like a rebound relationship. She moved out under a false pretext as step 1 of the plan but she never broke it off with me because she was too unsure and needed to keep me as a safety net. I told her Id have found out at some point regardless once I developed the warts since I know I hadn't slept with anyone else.

Little did she know that her AP was just a Chad looking for some free fun. When she discovered that he had another hotter and younger woman on the side, she lost it.

Same with mine, LOL!

Linus - I don't feel like divorcing after the kids have left would feel right to me. Our marriage has been mostly great aside from this and I think getting to a point of closure on this would be a lot easier than going that route. At least I know what Im getting right now.

Thanks all for your input

What would 'closure' sound/look/feel like? How will you know if you reach closure?

(signed) sisoon, wearing his Chan student hat