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Sisoon - I think recovery would look like me no longer thinking about my fWW's affair much if at all, and Im able to go about my daily business without it interfering with my thoughts and causing me to hold onto rancor. No longer interogating my wife or trying to hammer in how deeply it hurt me. Right now, its consuming about 90% of my thoughts per day and I am almost not productive at work whatsoever. This has gone on for months now. Of note, I had achieved something similar to this definition of recovery prior to the latest resurfacing. So Ive learned that recovery is not linear and can resurface like a dormant virus. It's either that, or I never correctly processed it the first time and we simply reached a functional level but without true healing.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 9:30 PM, Monday, January 31st]

GainingClosure: My WW had a 12 month PA about 10 years ago. What I see in your words is a BH that has forgiven his WW, but not himself. The biggest task for the BH is to forgive himself for the misconception of who you thought your WW was. She was never that person, despite years of evidence to the contrary. You have to forgive yourself for this misconception.

I believe that vast majority of WW's will not have another affair. Promises from the WW to this effect are really not that important. What is important in the character and integrity of your partner, and her willingness to be vulnerable in the relationship. Trust will increase when she shows character, integrity and vulnerability. Your WW may not have been able to show you this in the immediate aftermath. Perhaps over the last 15 years she has done better.

Forgiving oneself might be a part of IC (it was for me). Kindest Regards-

[This message edited by JungAdmirer at 6:10 PM, Wednesday, February 2nd]

I believe that vast majority of WW's will not have another affair.

I think this is very optimistic among "all WW's". This would only apply to WW's that show real contrition, do the work, set better boundaries, etc.

Most people don't find this site. Societally there is a lot of pressure to rugsweep, accept unmet needs/blameshifting, and set themselves up for a repeat.

Walls and windows my man. When there has been a wall where a window should be between the WS and the BS it's like cancer being shut up in the bones. Eventually, the cancer eats its way to the surface.

You're seeing the cancer surface and are now wondering how deep it actually goes.

It’s been a week. How’s it going GC?

What have interactions been like with your WW? Has she been writing to you? What work is she doing?

Check in when you can.

Also. What have you heard on the VAR lately?

Stevesn - its been up and down but mostly positive. fWW is halfway through the book "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" and I can tell that her demeanor has shifted to be more empathetic and she's been able to defuse me when I have an emotional wave. She hasn't begun the writing assignments yet but I told her that her answers need to be well thought out, and not just a sentence or two. As part of the assignment on describing what I must have felt, I included a long string of emails that I had written her and her AP from the discovery time period. She asked if she could not read these because it made her uncomfortable but I said nope, you need to read all of that so you can understand where I was at in my head at that time and truly begin to empathize.

Something you said in your initial reply to me really resonated with me which was:

As I wrote, she went to great lengths to give the AP what he wanted in order to be with him. For me, I’d want the same effort exponentially in order to feel wanted, desired and loved.

Ive been telling her I want this in exactly those words "exponentially". Ive outlined specific things I expect her to do for me and she has been receptive. She's been painting more artwork dedicated to me and us because she had gifted one of her canvas artworks that we had previously hung in our home to her AP as one example. But the main thing is, I want to feel that she is passionately in love with me. Because when we first met, I always played the role of the pursuer and she always felt luke warm. I was doing all of the convincing and she had even tried to break up with me early on because as she put it I was too much work. Now compare this to her AP, whom she was infatuated with and so much so that she was willing to drop me, our marriage, and 5 years of shared history. Thats some serious infatuation right? So I told her I never felt I got that from her and now I want to feel that from her exponentially.

AS to the VAR, I told her that I had a feeling that she wasn't on my side when she was talking to her Mom and Sister or work friends about my resurfaced trauma, which she kept denying. I couldn't hold myself back and admitted to the VAR and about how I knew she called me a "whiny bitch" and needed to "grow a pair" and how I felt that her Moms response was not positive. Her reaction was to become upset, uncomfortable and she said she felt smothered and that what I was doing was creepy, scary, and concerning. I knew that recording them didn't feel right, and was not a sign of relationship health. I explained to her that I felt like the event happened recently and that this hyper vigilance was a manifestation of the trauma and that I felt the only way to really know what she thought was to hear what she said about me in private. I also pointed out that she had invaded my privacy before when she went through my online conversations with a therapist from when I had been having a rough time with anxiety several years ago. I kept saying that its no way to talk about your husband and that I never spoke of her like that while she wasn't listening. She basically said that she was sorry that I had to hear it and that she was venting to her mother in a conversation that she thought was private. Says thats just how women talk to each other sometimes and that she wishes I would have heard other conversations she's had about me that were all positive. She said she had been influenced to say those exact words after her sister used similar language about me in a conversation they had recently had. Her sister and I haven't had the smoothest relationship although she has been semi supportive of me, recently suggesting that I need to see a therapist and that its ok that Im not ok. Bottom line here is that I can understand the need for my wife to have a support structure where she feels safe saying things in confidence and I dont want her to feel unsafe, so I committed to not ever recording her w/o her knowledge again. She also promised not to tell anyone else about the VAR because the responses wouldn't be helpful and would likely damage my relationship with her mother permanently.

She told her Mom that she wanted her to have a talk with me about how she was on the side of the marriage, which happened last Friday. Her Mom essentially told me that I have nothing to worry about followed by what I felt were some veiled warnings to cut it out. Basically telling me that my fWW is loyal, look at the proof (3 kids, etc) and that I need to be careful to not overwhelm her because she's been under a lot of stress lately. I didn't really feel like she was very understanding because how can she be when she's never bene through any of this herself. In fact, she cheated on my wife's Dad with her aerobics instructor in the early 90s and they ended up getting divorced from it. Their divorce has been what my wife calls the most devastating event of her life. I also blame her Mom for giving my wife a self esteem and body image issue which was an underlying psychological factor involved in my wife having an affair. She said that one of the reasons she decided not to R with my wife's Dad was that one of her friends said something like "You know he's never going to let you forget it".

I told my wife the other day that I wish I could feel what it was like to be in a romantic relationship where the person hadn't ever cheated on me again. But ultimately, I think someone else would come with their own set of baggage and I don't think the benefits of that option outweigh the costs for me at this point in my life. Is the persons past really clean when they've already been through multiple other relationships? I guess what I really miss is the purity of a marriage where none of us had any other prior relationships.

Thanks for checking in. I'll post another update once I have some more to add.

GC - I'm glad you disclosed your use of the VAR with your wife. I must say, when I read your original thread, I was deeply uncomfortable by your use of the VAR - NOT because you were concerned about cheating, but because you wanted to spy on her private conversations. Please don't take this comment as judgment, I have incredible sympathy for the trauma you are obviously experiencing right now. 16 years later though and without any reason to believe she is currently cheating, it just seems like a gross violation of trust. I'm impressed she handled your disclosure as well as she did.

Are you guys in MC right now?

emergent8 - The use of the VAR was mainly to see where her mind was as far as even being in the marriage in light of me bringing this all back up. If she'd have said something like "Im so close to divorcing him" or "if Id have known what I know now Id have never married him", then I wouldn't want to waste another day of my life being married to her.

We are not currently in MC (have gone to some in the past) but Ive considered going to one again for IC and possibly with us both.

After reading more of your responses, it is clear you are not close to being healed nor have you been able to sufficiently move on. Not by a long shot. You recently revealed that your fWW's mother cheated on her husband. That also had to play a part in your fWW's decision to cheat. As I said before, all BS's make a cost vs. benefit analysis on whether to stay. The longer you stay, the bigger the cost to leave, all other factors remaining static. You have been together 16 years since the affair. I imagine leaving now would be quite difficult. Do you regret staying? If you could have a conversation with your younger self of 16 years ago, what advice would you give him?

As they say, "It is what it is." For whatever reason, your wife developed a level of infatuation with her affair partner that she never reached with you. She was initially lukewarm to your advances per your own words. You simply can't change that. To be honest, there are guys out there that are masters of wooing women. Your fWW's AP sounds like one of them. She fell hard for him. She schemed on how to leave you without making it look like she left for another man. Pretty diabolical shit. Honestly, after finding that out, you should have dumped her immediately. But you didn't. Now 16 years later with three kids, leaving just isn't in the cards for you.

When you realize that your wife will never be able to be the perfect wife you desire (you can't change history) and that the story of her affair will never change, you might begin to reduce your anxiety, hurt, and expectations. I think that many BS's that get wrapped up in the story of their WW's affair, keep looking for an alternate ending. I did. She cheated and disregarded you and the marriage in making that choice. In your case, it was a worse betrayal in that she planned to leave you for her perfect man in shining armor. That's about it. The details don't change a damn thing.

The best advice is to work on yourself physically and emotionally. Work on your career. Lower your expectations regarding your idea of the perfect relationship. It's not going to happen. It can't happen with your fWW. You will have to stay vigilant to some degree, but don't let it consume you or your relationship with your fWW. Exude self-confidence and a sense of purpose. If, at some point, you realize that the cost is too high to stay, get the hell out. If you are honest with yourself and confident and proud of what you have become, you will know if that time ever arrives.

That was a hard read, and as others mentioned you're evidently still traumatized by her huge betrayal, I agree you should have dumped her back then, but I disagree that it's too late to make that decision, especially after thanks to the VAR you listened to the unfiltered truth about what deep down your WW wants you to do about her huge betrayal, according to her that is "stop being a whiny bitch" and "grow a pair", and of course she's confiding it with her mother, another proven cheater and liar.

The use of the VAR was mainly to see where her mind was as far as even being in the marriage in light of me bringing this all back up. If she'd have said something like "Im so close to divorcing him" or "if Id have known what I know now Id have never married him", then I wouldn't want to waste another day of my life being married to her.

And that's exactly why I think you made a huge mistake about disclosing the VAR, and even committed to never use it again (never reveal your sources), and no I'm not suggesting that you become the M police forever but as you pointed out, "you wanted to know now where her mind was now that you had brought it back up", and you sure did learn where her mind was, I'm sorry but your WW still very much wayward and the VAR is one of the best ways to verify info should she ever decide to stray again and your gut starts screaming at you. Life's too short, and it sounds like you're not happy and just settled as her plan B.

It's up to you, if you decide to stay of course it is your choice, it's your life, but make no mistake about it, there's another path that could potentially be better in the long run, would it be better ? maybe, maybe not, but based on what you posted your WW has set the bar very low and you deserve su much better, at a minimum, keep your options open if you continue feeling this way.

[This message edited by Buster123 at 2:15 AM, Wednesday, February 9th]

She told her Mom that she wanted her to have a talk with me about how she was on the side of the marriage, which happened last Friday. Her Mom essentially told me that I have nothing to worry about followed by what I felt were some veiled warnings to cut it out. Basically telling me that my fWW is loyal, look at the proof (3 kids, etc) and that I need to be careful to not overwhelm her because she's been under a lot of stress lately.

Your MIL is not a friend of your marriage - she is a cheater herself, likely feels zero remorse for her own cheating, and will certainly cast you in bad light - she likely even disrespects you for staying. You should cut her out of your life - you may find it hard to believe, but your WW may actually respect you more if you do that.

But ultimately, I think someone else would come with their own set of baggage and I don't think the benefits of that option outweigh the costs for me at this point in my life. Is the persons past really clean when they've already been through multiple other relationships? I guess what I really miss is the purity of a marriage where none of us had any other prior relationships.

There certainly are people who are "clean" as in maintained their personal integrity by staying faithful despite having been through multiple other relationships, for sure. What you term as "baggage" is life experience for the most part. Don't use that as an excuse to stay with a cheater.

If she'd have said something like "Im so close to divorcing him" or "if Id have known what I know now Id have never married him", then I wouldn't want to waste another day of my life being married to her.

How is that worse than referring to you as a whiny bitch who needs to grow a pair of balls? She's basically calling you an effeminate, emasculated male. Aren't you grasping at straws here? Wake up, my friend.

[This message edited by redbaron007 at 8:09 AM, Wednesday, February 9th]

GC

Thanks for the updates. I believe you are approaching this in the exact right way and it will pay off for you In the long run in finding happiness down the road.

Of course if your wife chooses NOT to step up and do the work necessary to rebuild and help you heal, that happiness has may be without her. And I’d be saying that to her explicitly. "Either you are with me in this journey and walking along side me, doing what is necessary, or I’ll find my path alone."

That said, I have absolutely no problem with you using the VAR. It was not for capturing evidence for court, which wouldn’t be allowed anyway. It was for seeing where her head truly is at, for your information.

Your wife is a proven and admitted cheater and liar. If you were going to bet your life on her, you needed a way to find trust. This was one tool.

If she’s truly all in, she would fully understand why you needed to do that. I hope she gets to that point and actually feels bad that her previous choices forced you to make such a painful decision to have to listen in on your wife.

In regards to discussions with her sister and mother of anyone else for that matter, what I’d absolutely say to her is "no matter who you are talking to, if what you are saying about me is not something you would say in front of me, then you need to question yourself as to what you are saying. If this recovery is going to work, you need to feel more on my side than on your own. You need to defend me, not attack me. It was your cheating and lying that brought us here. If I’m Truly going to recover from it, I need to feel that your side is being on my side".

I would also discuss with her if her mom is a good advice giver for her considering her own path and approach to infidelity. If she is taking advice from the woman who destroyed her family of origin she needs to question if that advice is valid at all. I’d like to hear your wife’s thoughts on that and the conversation she asked you to have with her mother. This is a woman to be kept at arms length in my opinion if your rebuilding is going to work at all.

I can’t remember is your wife in IC with an infidelity specialist? That has to be requirement number 1 if she is not. She cannot hedge on this at all. If she won’t do it then I believe you’re going to have to consider moving on from her.

I do like your use of the word "exponentially ". Do you feel she "gets it"? You might ask her to talk about what type of things she thinks about needing to do when she thinks about those words. She did so much to keep the AP from leaving. She should do a factor of at least 10 in order to keep you, the professed love of her life, from walking out the door.

Has she started to ramp things up yet? I wouldn’t give her much time to let things slide.

You and only you get to decide what is enough. In all areas, emotionally, physically, intellectually, and generosity. As I believe I’ve written before, that you can let her know, the more she gives of herself in all aspects of life to you, the more she will get back in return. But it has to start with her. She is the cheater. You are not.

And I’m glad you outlined that you want her thoughts both verbally and in written form. I and others here can come up with lots of writing topics that can get you both to open up to each other. I’ve liked the idea I’ve seen a few here do where partners get a notebook they hand back and forth, writing on topics and responding.

So tell her you expect her to write at least twice a week. You’ve already given the first topic. Don’t let it go to long before she provides that first entry. You need to honestly tell her what you expect, and not accept less. If she steps up, you will know she’s doing this for you, and as I have said before, that’s something No one else can say. Let her know you appreciate it.

But if she doesn’t . Then you can tell her that her lack of effort shows you all you need to know, and when you’re ready, communicate that you are moving on.

You need to be honest about it all. That’s all you can do. And then observe and decide.

Good luck my friend.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:26 PM, Wednesday, February 9th]

You should cut her (mil) out of your life - you may find it hard to believe, but your WW may actually respect you more if you do that.

I agree. You owe the MIL less than zero. She’s a cheater.

Im having major problems processing some of the details that I compartmentalized initially or hadn’t heard yet. The latest one is her telling me that she remembers telling her AP that she wanted him to be exclusive and not be dating anyone else. So she wanted him all to herself but meanwhile she’s cheating on me. The double standard is just unbelievable to me and that thought made me incredibly hurt and angry. Her AP was in fact dating other people without telling my fWW and thats one reason she was open to R with me. So maybe had he not, we wouldn't be where we are now. I impulsively said I wanted a divorce but I don't think I was serious and it was more to just let her know the gravity of my feelings. Maybe Im testing my wife to see if she loves me enough to take it.

Things are not well here right now. My wife’s anxiety has ramped up big time and when that happens she gets angry as a defense mechanism and tries to turn it around on me like Im the one who’s about to screw up our family now. Its as if her actions back then don't factor into it because "I already chose to forgive her" and now, it's solely me who would be ruining our family since so much time has already gone by she doesn't see it as an action-reaction type of thing. Its just a "I cant get over it" thing that is squarely on me.

It feels shitty to hear people say that I should have dumped my wife. Like I made the wrong decision. Im naturally a forgiving person and besides her A, almost everything about our life and marriage has been as I would have hoped and expected it to go when I first married her. Im just sick of feeling this way and sick of not being able to stop thinking about it and looking at the worst. Its confusing to me because this didn’t ever factor into my daily thoughts in any significant way for 15 of the last 16 years. I had accepted it and it was just very low level background noise.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 3:42 PM, Thursday, February 10th]

You suppressed your feelings for 16 years. Very common. I did it. Results were not optimal. Good news is that after processing, and some careful decision- making, life is so much better.

Now would be a good time to enlist the support of good, trauma-informed IC who can help you create boundaries, set goals for yourself and your M.

Wife had a nervous breakdown with suicidal ideations today at work because I mentioned divorce and canceling valentines weekend plans. It pains me seeing her in this state. I may be absent for awhile on this forum since some of the responses stoke my anger and my goal is to R not D.

[This message edited by gainingclosure at 2:46 AM, Friday, February 11th]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. Strength to you both.

I hope you get her the help she needs. I cannot remember if you are working with a therapist yourself You need to be. Working through this pain is what is going to help you get thru it, and you need professional support for that.

I do not believe you shouldn’t have reconciled all those years ago, but you both should have done the work necessary to really work through what happened and deal with the aftermath. That is what was missing.

Right now focus on getting both of you that support you truly need thru individual therapy.

I agree I hope your WW gets the help she needs. Also get professional therapy help for yourself. You will both need to work together to work toward R. Do not second guess past decisions. It’s done. Work toward healing and making your current life the best it can be. Good luck.