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From the National Child Traumatic Stress Network:

Many factors influence children’s responses to domestic violence. As you have probably observed in your work, not all children are equally affected. Some children do not show obvious signs of stress or have developed their own coping strategies. Others may be more affected. A child’s age, experience, prior trauma history, and temperament all have an influence. For example, an adolescent who grew up in an atmosphere of repeated acts of violence may have different posttraumatic stress reactions than a 12-year-old who witnessed a single violent fight. A six-year-old girl who saw her mother bleeding on the floor and feared she would die would likely have more severe reactions than a child who perceived the incident she witnessed to be less dangerous.

A child’s proximity to the violence also makes a difference. Consider the very different experiences of a 12-year-old child who was in another room with headphones on while her parents battled; an eight-year-old who had to call 911 despite a raging parent’s threats against him; and a teenager who has frequently put himself at risk by getting into the middle of fights to protect his mother from her estranged boyfriend. Here are some of the factors that can influence children’s reactions to domestic violence:

The severity of the violence (Was it life-threatening? Did the victim express terror in front of the child? Was a weapon used or brandished? Was there a serious injury?)

The child’s perception of the violence (A child may perceive violence as life-threatening even if adults do not.)

The age of the child

The quality of the child’s relationships with both parents (or involved parties)

The child’s trauma history (What other traumatic events has the child experienced? Was the child also a victim of physical abuse?)

Secondary adversities in the child’s life, such as moving, changing schools, or leaving behind support systems

I accept that acts of DV can affect a child. But I have never read a study or any literature that bolsters findings with absolutist adverbs such as NEVER or ALWAYS. That seems very unscientific considering that the feelings and emotions of children are subjective and diverse as those of adults.

I feel it is not helpful to make such statements to a mother about herself and the father who are struggling immensely with guilt and have much fear about how this may impact their children. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that their priority should be the children, but I believe that can be accomplished without stating opinion as fact. I do believe words matter, especially in a time of crisis.

We can make reasonably assumptions based on the facts provided that the relationship between IAT and HM is toxic. However, there is nothing that indicates that IAT or HM do not love their children, are somehow a threat to them, or otherwise endangering their children that would cause them to have long-lasting impressions that would adversely affect their lives or development.

I edited my comment kingrat...becuase it unproductive to get into a "fact slinging" match regarding the long term affects of witnessing abuse and the affect it had on children.

I could parade a host of qualitative data out...but to what end?

Feelings...are not facts and you have illustrated..feeling like a post is unhelpful given the verbage may or may not be helpful ad helpful is subjective and help within the view of the reader. What you found unhelpful becuase it spoke in absolutes you don't ascribe to...another may.

I will not engage further regarding the wording of posts as it draws attention away from supporting IAT as she makes progress.

I appreciate the debate.

Social worker Laura Foley as quoted in the Irish Times:

“Many studies find that there is a direct link between arguing in the home and emotional and mental health problems. Some potential traits and disorders that stem from witnessing parents arguing are OCD, difficulty in social development, depression, anti-social behaviour, aggression and anxiety.”

“Words don’t solely affect the person they’re aimed towards. If a child can see or hear, they can hurt. The family home should be a child’s safest environment. Children of all ages are perceptive and can quickly become emotionally distressed when their safety becomes compromised by the ones who should be protecting them.”

“There is a delicate line between parents fighting and disagreeing. A keyword in differentiating the two is tone. Children as young as six months can pick up on argumentative tones leading to potential alterations of the brain due to stress. Fighting creates an emotionally charged environment that removes home security and creates emotional distress. In comparison, disagreements in front of children could be positive if they are also there to witness the rectification afterwards.”

And this from the American Academy of Pediatrics (© 2021). I suggest IAT, that you read this over carefully and see that there are many, many areas where you need to help your children through this, and think about what you can do to help them heal from what they have already witnessed. (I specifically draw your attention to this:)

Parents living separately should agree on a set of consistent rules for both households. It is also very important to live up to your promises to visit or spend time with your child. A routine weekly or monthly schedule may be comforting to your child.

Separation and Divorce: Keeping Your Children First

How much a separation or divorce will affect your child’s life depends largely on how you and your co-parent treat each other before, during, and after the separation or divorce. Parents must work together to make the transition as easy as possible. Even though the relationship ends, your role as a parent continues. Set aside your differences and put your child first.

Here are suggestions on how to put your child first.

Never force your child to take sides.Every child will have loyalties to both parents. Children naturally love both their parents, and they know that parts of each parent go into making them.

Talk about concerns with your child’s other parent in private. Make sure your child cannot overhear your conversations. Also, avoid fighting in front of your child and make sure your child cannot hear you. This step includes making phone calls, texts, and other forms of electronic communication private.

Do not involve your child in arguments between the two of you. Do not let your child get caught in the middle of custody and child support disagreements. If you are having custody disagreements, consider contacting a mediator to help settle them. Mediators can be found by contacting a lawyer or family court. For questions about child support, visit the US Department of Health and Human Services Office of Child Support Enforcement website at www.acf.hhs.gov/css/parents.

Do not criticize each other in front of your child or when your child might overhear you. If this type of criticism happens, explain to your child that when people get angry, they sometimes say things that are hurtful.

Don’t make your child the messenger. Whether the matter involves scheduling, picking up items from the other house, or finances, find a way to communicate directly with your co-parent. If your child is put in the middle and something goes wrong, they can easily feel at fault.

Discuss your concerns and feelings with your child’s other parent when and where your child cannot hear. Avoid fighting in front of your child.

Help your child adjust

There are many things you can do to help your child adjust to the changes in your family.

Talk with your child early and often

The earlier you tell your child what is happening and the more often you talk, the more comfortable they will feel. Also, allow your child to share their fears, worries, and feelings with you. This step can help them feel safe and special. When talking with your child about the separation or divorce, follow these guidelines.

Be completely honest and open about what is going to happen. Talk about the separation or divorce in simple terms—for example, “Your dad and I are having some trouble getting along” or “Your mother and I are thinking we need to live apart from each other.”

Make sure your child knows the separation or divorce is not their fault.Also, tell them that they can’t fix the problems or help the two of you stay together. Reassure your child that you love them and will not leave them.

Try not to blame your ex-partner or show your anger. Explain that parents sometimes need to live separately. This step includes never telling your child the specifics of what happened to cause the separation unless your child already knows or a serious safety issue is involved—for example, domestic violence, criminal activity, or drug dependence.

Be patient with questions.You do not need to have all the answers. Sometimes just carefully listening to your child is more helpful than talking. Following are questions your child might ask:

Why are you getting separated or divorced?

Will you ever get back together again?

Where am I going to live?

Will we have to move?

Will I need to change schools?

Was the separation or divorce my fault?

How often will I see (the other parent)?

Are we going to have less money?

Reassure your child that they are safe and loved. If needed, don’t hesitate to get help from your child’s doctor or a family counselor.

Allow your child to be a child

Resist using your child to replace your former partner. Avoid putting pressure onto your child with statements such as “You are the man/woman in the family now” or “Now I have to depend on you.” Children have a right to enjoy childhood and grow up at a typical pace. As they grow older, they will be able to take on more responsibility and help around the house. Don’t expect too much too soon.

Respect the relationship between your child and the other parent

It is important to let your children show their love to both parents. Unless your ex-partner is unfit to parent, try not to let your differences keep your children away from them. Children should be allowed to spend time with their other parent without feeling guilty. Reassure your children that you both still love them, even though they may be living with only one parent at a time.

Keep your child’s daily routine

Try to keep your child’s routine, friends, school, and environment as unchanged as possible. Schedule meals, chores, and bedtime at regular times so your child knows what to expect each day. Parents living separately should agree on a set of consistent rules for both households. It is also very important to live up to your promises to visit or spend time with your child. A routine weekly or monthly schedule may be comforting to your child.

Be aware of different reactions

Reactions to a separation or divorce can vary depending on your child’s age, gender, temperament, past experiences, and family support. Following are typical ways that your child may react. If any of these behaviors become excessive, talk with your child’s doctor.

Preschool-aged children may

Be sad

Be afraid of others

Not want to be separated from one parent

Have problems eating or sleeping

Have trouble toilet training

Have outbursts or tantrums

Act more “babyish”

Blame themselves for the separation or divorce

School-aged children may

Be moody or angry

Have problems eating or sleeping

Seem distracted and faraway

Not do as well as usual in school

Have tantrums

Revert to more immature behavior

Be more aggressive or angry

Express their sadness and wish for their parents to get back together

Worry they may be the cause of the separation or divorce

Worry about divided loyalty to their parents

Adolescents may

Withdraw emotionally from family or friends

Become aggressive or angry

Engage in risky behaviors such as sex or use of drugs

Try to become an adult and take charge of the family

Worry about money

Worry they may be the cause of the separation or divorce

Have problems eating or sleeping

Feel depressed

Accept help from others

Children often turn to neighbors, grandparents, and friends for comfort and attention. These relationships can offer support and can be very helpful to children as they adjust to a separation or divorce. Teachers or school social workers should be made aware of a change in the family so they can let you know whether any problems arise in school. It’s also important for your child’s school to know whom to contact for permission for special activities or in an emergency.

Separation and divorce are not always easy for parents either. Don’t be afraid to visit a counselor if you are having trouble adjusting. It is important for parents to stay healthy so they can be available to their children during this difficult time. Social agencies, mental health centers, women’s centers, and support groups for single parents are helpful. There are also many informative books and articles about separation and divorce for both parents and children. Also, your child’s doctor is very aware of the effects that separation and divorce may have on emotions and behavior. Their doctor can help you find ways to cope with the stress you and your children are feeling.

Remember

If you have any concerns or questions, contact your child’s doctor.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 4:10 PM, June 3rd (Thursday)]

Iamtrash, I’m a BH, nearly 6 years from Dday 1, and nearly 3 years from dday 3. I have followed both yours and HM’s posts since you both joined here.

I don’t have any real words of wisdom for you, but I did want to add that you have more control in this current situation than you may think. You absolutely do not need to provide sex to HM. He has zero “right” to your body. You can chose to say no. I get where you are coming from though. You want your marriage, totally get it. However, the amount of fallout from your actions (pre and post dday) is a lot to deal with.

HM getting physical with you is on him, and if I remember correctly, he took ownership of it. There is no acceptable scenario where either spouse gets physical, hard stop. He has to face those consequences, regardless of the reasons why.

I feel, for the two of you and your kids, an amicable D is the best outcome. You certainly can file for D, you can stop providing sex to him, you can come up with a coparenting plan, etc. I’m not saying this is your responsibility, rather, that you have control over how you act and the decisions you make.

At nearly six years out, I can say that my WW and I are in R, but are not healed. This is mostly on me. Looking back, D would have been the easier option for us, but we are working on it. My WW has also said she felt like she didn’t have a choice when it came to sex. She felt it was her responsibility to provide this to me, whenever/however, but that isn’t what I want. I want my WW to want to have sex with me, not because she feels it is her duty. The same is true when it comes to me and my struggles and emotions. My WW feels she doesn’t deserve to voice her concerns, she feels that she lost that right when she cheated, over basically our entire relationship. My WW is the type that feels this is her punishment for her actions. I really don’t want her to live like this, it’s not healthy and is no way to live your life. My responsibility in this scenario is that I have to check my feelings so she feels safe enough to bring up difficult conversations. It has taken a long time but we can have affair discussions or normal husband and wife disagreements without me throwing her A’s back at her. This has taken a lot of time.

You have a lot on your plate and it reads to me like you feel this all falls on your shoulders. I get it, my WW felt the same way.

For your sake, stop having sex with HM, initiate D, and come up with a coparenting plan, for both of you and for your kids.

Without passing judgment, this pattern of punishment and degradation is obviously counter-productive to healing for either of you. While likely very difficult in the short term, I think setting the boundary that the two of you need to limit contact strictly to co-parenting would go a very long way to healing in the long term. Considering he's already moved out, it's now just a matter of commitment. You guys have been in this toxic atmosphere for so long that just having a while to catch your breath will likely clear your heads and help process these emotions better.

I honestly also think that's the best shot at healthy reconciliation one day being possible. I think both of you should take R and D both off the table, as right now the threat of D and hope of R are being used to hurt and manipulate more so than anything else. Instead, just strictly focus on being great co-parents and each of you getting to a healthier state of mind. And maybe go into the mountains for a bit and breathe some fresh god damn air, get them toxic fumes out of your systems.

I think I'm basically repeating the advice of a few others so just throwing my voice in the crowd.

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:35 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

If it is too much, it is too much ♥️ Take care of yourself

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:36 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

As long as the open door policy in your house stands, as long as you keep talking on the phone regularly, and certainly as you keep having sex, neither one of you will heal or have peace. Furthermore, you will cause more damage to your kids by confusing them with mixed messages and exposing them to your conflict and tension.

One of you has to decide to be an adult and say “This is over. No more.” Hallmack took the first step by saying he wants a divorce. If he’s not following through on the papers and still behaving as if he’s “half married” then you need to take action and complete the process.

You’re achieving nothing by wallowing in misery while making the same mistakes repeatedly and expecting different results.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:12 PM, June 4th (Friday)]

If you are serious about changing this behavioral cycle, and it certainly sounds like you are, why not treat it like any other bad habit you want to break. In other words, explore strategies that will help you obtain your goal and cope with the feelings. There are plenty of resources on the internet to read. You can examine the situations where you are weak and likely to cave in, and plan how you will avoid them or handle them if they arise. You can do things to focus on the long-term reward like developing a mantra or carrying around a list.

There are also resources for separation and divorce like Divorce Care meetings. Those may offer support in managing emotions.

Just a thought intended to help you cope in the immediate term.

Well said BluerThanBlue.

It’s hard being away from my babies and they haven’t even done an overnight yet.

This will be hard. Try to have some support in place for yourself. A friend you can see or someone you can call? Maybe they can even spend the night.

It’ll get easier with time and a routine.

It will, but it will still be a long road, with steps forward and back. Give yourself some grace when you fall back into old ways of thinking. It takes a really, really long time for a 'new normal' to fully set in.

(FWIW, when I found out my WH had betrayed me, I told him to move out and then removed everything that reminded me of him from the house. Furniture, books, photos etc. That may be harder because your kids may want some photos around, but have at least part of the house that you can retreat to an d know he's not there.)

You will make it thru this. So will he and the kids. Not saying it will be easy. But you will do it.

IAT,

I'm sorry for what happened to you and your family. Hope you can work on it together with your husband.
You have to understand that he is also hurting, in fact, he's hurting more than you. You were the last person he expects to hurt him this much and yet you did it to him. It was like he's taking a bullet to protect you but that bullet was in fact coming from you.
The mental image of your affair is too strong for him that he can't take it off his mind. Especially when you do it with him. The image is only supposed to be you and him but is now tainted with the image of your lover. Believe me that he's trying his best to rid of that image but as I said, it's too strong. If you're aiming for R, you have to help him. He's not using you for sex, in fact, he's supposed to be the only one you're having sex with that's why he's conflicted right now.
He's in two places of extremes right now. Let me give you examples:

He still loves you but also loathes you.
He wants to protect you but also wants to hurt you.
He wants to build the future with you but doesn't know how to proceed.

So I advise you to be patient with him. Help him heal. Be much more understanding.
Hope this helps and goodluck on your healing!

I am trash. I understand and feel your suffering, but heck, what did you expect? I don't know your full story, I've never read it, but I guess your husband has sex with you because that way his mental films decrease and the sense of "possession" that comes from the physical relationship with you makes him "bearable. "the relationship with you. I should know the details better to judge better, but I understand the situation, he loves you and hates you, wants you and rejects you, punishes you and scares you but does not let you go, great suffering for both of you and for the children this ... logic would say that you should separate for a period at least and then work slowly and more peacefully at that. You will be a bit like the clouds that if the sky (and the wind) want it, you will meet again. From this Babylon you describe, I find it hard to think that any form of "serene" can arise.

And he continued to have a sexual relationship and playhouse with somebody that did all those things.

Hellooooo, victim blaming.

I just need it clear cut. If we aren’t R, don’t tell me you love me. Don’t tell me you care. Don’t sleep with me. Don’t tell me you can imagine a life with me. Don’t tell me you miss me. I’m not saying he doesn’t feel those things

.

Any control over his emotions or words you may have had went buh-bye when you fell onto another man's dick.

Because as girls thats what we doooo

Yuck, speak for yourself.

Since you are having sex now disgust seems to be out of the picture.

Uh, not necessarily. I have been absolutely repulsed by my WH at times over the last decade or so... can still manage to have sex with him. As disgusting as I may sometimes find him emotionally/mentally/morally/spiritually, he's hot. (Like, smokin' hot.)

You made mistakes because you're a human being. We all make mistakes.

Thought it was kind of verboten around here to call deliberate choices "mistakes."

He got aggressive. Physically aggressive. Intimidating.

What does this mean? Did he punch you? Strangle you? Grab you by the shoulders and try to shake some sense into you?

I watched my dad throttle my mom when I was 4. I told him he was a bad boy at the time. Many years later I found out she had been cheating on him AND demanded to remain living in the house while she continued cheating on him.

In retrospect, I think she got off pretty damn lucky.

I completely understand not wanting to let go of your marriage, even though it is clearly an unhealthy situation. During your darkest moments, maybe you can go back to that place in your head you occupied during your affair - the place where you didn't care about him, your marriage, or your family. That might help you get through this. You did it out of convenience then... it might be a life-saver now.

IAT, I've been thinking about you. How are you doing?

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:36 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]

inappropriate

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:39 PM, Monday, July 12th]

[This message edited by Iamtrash at 3:36 AM, Tuesday, August 24th]