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We think we may have successfully jettisoned OW from our lives.

But now I'm being accused again that my three-year LTA was a revenge A to her PA that lasted a few months, and it is FUCKING NOT TRUE.

I explained AGAIN over breakfast that I was in a weak position for awhile after her A, holding an abundance of insecurity, and OW did take advantage of that. OW was a friend of my wife's and people always said that OW kind of had a thing for me.

I'm also not at all unattractive (I've been told I'm a dead ringer for Tim Fleming on Heartland) and have been hit on by women all my life. But I never indulged in infidelity after I got married and I intended to stayed true to my wife even after discovery of her A.

In BS' anger this morning she said I went looking for it just as a "fuck you" to her. I WAS NOT. In my anger I replied that she did in fact suck the OM's d*ck often during her brief A without a single thought to how I might feel about it. I on the other hand resisted OW for a long time -- but all the attention she was giving me evolved into a serious relationship - with all the things that come with it, including sex. I don't just fuck someone to hurt someone else. People who do that have more serious problems.

These are all things I thought we had reconciled awhile ago in months of MC.

She believes that her A wasn't as bad as mine because she didn't love her OM, she just "indulged him for awhile," she said. She never planned on leaving me and that it didn't mean anything to her -- as if this is supposed to make me feel better.

So now I'm supposed look back on all those days she doubled dipped as meaningless. She's gotta lot of fucking nerve and I'm seriously thinking about leaving.

I want a relationship free of the baggage of affairs; I seriously don't know if I can take it anymore. We're living in a non-divorce, not a marriage and I have done EVERYTHING I can to reconcile.

We don't have kids and I'm thinking of taking a reporting job out west. Seriously, I just feel like leaving.

We've been married 35 years and we're both not yet 60, we still can have plenty of happiness ahead of us without being together.

It may be time to just call it day. There is no stop sign but I would like to hear from the WS's also

[This message edited by MyAndI at 11:14 AM, April 8th (Thursday)]

Take it for what it’s worth, but I will never believe that my H’s post-D-day rebound fuckfest-turned-“relationship” with one of my (formerly) closest friends was not, at least in some part, motivated by revenge. Of course it was a “fuck you” to me. I’m not stupid.

I can see why your W might feel the way she does. However, you know the truth of your own heart, just as my H does, and at the end of the day my perception of what happened doesn’t matter to him any more than your MHW’s should matter to you. If she doesn’t believe you, who cares?

I on the other hand resisted OW for a long time -- but all the attention she was giving me evolved into a serious relationship - with all the things that come with it, including sex.

This sounds like you need to make sure your wife knows you fell in love with her friend,and you are angry that she doesn't want to believe that.

Okay. Tiggers fucking suck. They suck for us they suck for our BSs. No way around it, if we could all be honest for a moment I think we can agree on that.

But now old conversations about OW are creeping back into our lives. I'll post in a new thread.

yeah, your AP, the one who invited herself back into your life is the reason everyone is suffering.

Your "problems" the ones you are ready to give up on they didn't come out of nowhere. She didn't ask for this recent break of NC. She didn't ask to be sucked back to dday. This isn't shit she's stirred up.

YOUR AP reached out, your AP inserted herself back with zero regard. Thats on you. And honestly it's quite unfair to turn it back on your wife and throw her affair in her face. When chances are if it weren't for your AP breaking NC you guys would probably be getting along right now.

I want a relationship free of the baggage of affairs; I seriously don't know if I can take it anymore.

You should probably put some energy here, I mean I get it, its obviously preferred. I just think its a pretty important decision for everyone's sake. Your wife deserves to know where you are.

You both sound like in sufferable assholes in this situation as described. She thinks her affair wasn’t as bad because it was short? Well duh she got caught! Oh but it was “just sex”? So she threw away decades for just sex?!

And then there’s you who seem to think of yourself as a tragic romantic figure. You were vulnerable! The AP pursued you! It wasn’t a dirty, perverse affair like your wife’s... it was a serious relationship! Your affair was Playboy and hers was Hustler!

You both need to dislodge your heads from your rectums and breathe in the fresh air of reality. Divorce will get you out of each other’s hair but it’s not going to make either of you into more honest, less selfish human beings without hard work on yourselves.

I don’t know if your wife shares this trait, Andy, but in a lot of your posts I see a clear disconnect in your sense of reality... such as not understanding why your wife would be upset about you wanting to be friendly with OM, seriously contemplating rekindling the friendship with OW, or your incredulity in your response to your wife’s angst over OW’s attempts at contact. It’s like there’s an alternate dimension happening in your head that has nothing to do with how the world actually operates.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 7:39 PM, April 4th (Sunday)]

That's not fair HellFire, I didn't fall in love, I simply fell on my need to wash away the pain, it was not love, I thought it was but it wasn't. I never wanted to hurt my wife, NEVER. I was weak and made bad choices.

I did the 180 late last night. I yelled, I said we either get past our bad choices and not let our former OP's ruin our lives or we end it. She's not talking to me right now. I'm not normally a screamer so I think it set her back. But it's clear we can't stay on this path.

Foreverlabled: Yes things were going well until I told my wife that FOW texted me. I have given my wife every password/key to everything and I've honored my commitment to tell her everything when it happens and likewise for her.

It's been awhile since OW contacted me, and I hate her guts for putting my wife and me through this.

I loathe the OW at this point, and I realize how toxic she's been to us.

I hate OW and I'm seriously at my wits end with my wife. I threw her A in her face because I was pissed off at her for accusing me of purposely having a revenge A. It simply was not my intent, even in the subconscious to have a revenge affair.

My A had nothing to do with what was wrong with my my wife, it had everything to do with what was wrong with ME.I have acknowledge this to the ends of the earth and I thought we had worked all of this out in MC.

[This message edited by MyAndI at 1:25 AM, April 5th (Monday)]

BS here - and as one who's WH's LTAP also just reached back out [and we had to hire an attorney to send a Cease and Desist] I can tell you any healing I had done has just been shattered and I've been blasted to lower than Ground Zero.

I have yelled, screamed, sobbed and cursed more this time than I may have all others. I spewed a lot of venon. Both WH and I have been cyber stalked by LTAP and we've learned just how deep that goes and just how long she's been doing it.

I am back to not sleeping, hyperventilating, not eating - forcing any little bit of self care. I have called my EAP and talked to a crisis counselor many times a week for the past month since it happened. I am praying with a fury I won't need to go back on Rx. This contact by LTAP - this reaching out after 2 freaking years shattered me to my freaking core.

An ya know what? My WH has treated me with empathy and compassion. At every turn, empathy and compassion. If I'd have been met with a metaphorical gauntlet of "If you don't STFU I'm done" during my expression of pain from my reopened wound I'd have held the freaking door open and said LTAP could have him.

It seems that the OW reaching out has reopened some unresolved issues between you and your wife, or separately in each of you.

It is times like these that we realize there were issues that we didn't know needed addressing.

This is one of those times where getting into an MC for both of you would be a really good starting point.

It may be about past unresolved affair issues, or it could be about some other stressors entirely.

These are all things I thought we had reconciled awhile ago in months of MC.

In the last few years I finally realized that a good marriage, or any other relationship, requires constant work. Those past issues don't just go away. And not everything is about the A's.

Seriously, I just feel like leaving.

That is a frustration and a viable option, but you are also on here posting and looking for advice. You still care enough to be at a crossroads as to what to do.

. I on the other hand resisted OW for a long time -- but all the attention she was giving me evolved into a serious relationship - with all the things that come with it, including sex.

Typically, people in "serious relationships " are in love. Not sure what anyone else is supposed to garner from this sentence.

You have been asked many times, when her affair was, and when yours was. We are obviously trying to figure out how far from dday the two of you are. You usually say it's been years, which could mean 20,and could mean 2. Can you be more specific?

NC is NC. You should be responding to OW in ANY way. Maybe it's not her contact that is causing setbacks in your wife's healing. Maybe it's your breaks in NC. Why isn't she blocked? Or why haven't you changed your phone number?

You cheated for 3 years. You were recently friendly to her AP.You recently didn't understand why your wife couldn't be friends with the OW again, and now you are pissed that your wife is upset that you and OW communicated.

You say you have done everything to heal the damage done to the marriage by your affair. Have you tried consistent empathy and remorse?

It looks like you feel the two of you are even,and should just laugh at it all, and move on.

A relationship free of affair baggage will NEVER happen because you brought that baggage into the marriage, paraded it around in front of your wife, threw it everywhere, now want to pretend you didn't. Even with a remorseful WS, its still a part of your history. She will trigger,on occasion, even 10 years out.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:11 AM, April 5th (Monday)]

Chaos,

I'm always empathetic, but there are rare moments when I lose it.

I rejected OW's contact, told OW to buzz off and told my wife immediately what happened, we worked something out to try and rid ourselves of OW.

And we were doing well until OW contacted me. Then my wife started in on that my affair was a revenge A. And it was simply not true.

There does come a point where madhatters have to stop beating each other of the head with the As. Doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it and be available for each other. I know a new normal happens after As, which I welcome, but this isn't normal.

And I don't give the exact year of the As here to protect my privacy, for reason I can't explain here. But I can tell you we had a few years of good, we were in a good place - and things began to spiral out of control when an ex girl friend from high school moved 5 doors up from us last fall. There was nothing related about it.

And yes I was friendly towards OM because I didn't want that SOB to think he got under my skin.

[This message edited by MyAndI at 8:48 AM, April 5th (Monday)]

>I know a new normal happens after As, which I welcome, but this isn't normal.

I disagree. It's entirely normal; you can't expect moments like these to never happen and to always be on your best behavior. Your OW reached out and it brought out the worst in your wife. She lashed out at you.

You think her reaction is completely unfair and unreasonable... but your response was to lash out and basically tell her to STFU.

>There does come a point where madhatters have to stop beating each other of the head with the As.

So why don't you demonstrate this with action instead of words? Whenever she lashes out about your affair-- even if you think she's being unfair or mischaracterizing the situation-- react with love and compassion.

Stop the endless cycle of tit for tat. Be the change you want to see in your relationship.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:44 AM, April 5th (Monday)]

So why don't you demonstrate this with action instead of words? Whenever she lashes out about your affair-- even if you think she's being unfair or mischaracterizing the situation-- react with love and compassion.

Exactly this. She’s had a setback. I agree with FL that digging deeper into your comment about baggage would be beneficial. Sounds like shame to me.

[This message edited by leavingorbit at 9:47 AM, April 5th (Monday)]

I don't know your story but maybe because it seemed like you two had done the work to get past her affair, rebuilt and then you had an affair. Looking term relationship, with her friend. For her it might feel it was planned and international due to who it was with. As you probably experienced once the trust its ruptured you (she) look back at everything differently. If you look at it like you knew what it feels like to be cheated pin and lied to. You choose to do this with a friend of your wife's. Double betrayal.

Have you tried just acknowledging her feelings and that you could understand how it might feel like that to her?

Sometimes just being heard instead of being told you are wrong can make a huge difference and give space for her to look at why she feels that way. She doesn't have to fight with you about being right or wrong.

Classic WS Behavior 101

1) Blame the spouse for your actions and choices, and make 100% sure to ignore their POV and your culpability

2) Get defensive as hell and use words like "Fucking" to "prove" how righteous and serious you are

3) Redirect anger back at the spouse by hyper-focusing on an irrelevant detail as a "Truth or lie" while adamantly refusing to take ownership of the damage done regardless of the truth

But now I'm being accused again that my three-year LTA was a revenge A to her PA that lasted a few months, and it is FUCKING NOT TRUE.

Angry, defensive, blaming, and honestly just disgusting. Let's say it's true. Or let's say it's false. Either way, what's the difference? What is your point? If it is true then you had a revenge affair, if not, then you had typical affair. Either way, somehow your penis ended up in another woman's vagina for three years straight, but what's really important is whether or not you did this for revenge??? Do you think this somehow makes you a better person because you cheated on your spouse because you're such a great guy? Get a grip. You didn't have an affair because you love your wife so much, you had an affair because it is what you wanted, and what you chose to do, and you did do it, so OWN IT. You had an affair, a long-term, nasty, not in any way validated or okay affair. If you are hurt that your wife cheated first, I get that. It doesn't excuse or justify your own behavior any more than it excused or justified hers. Wrong is wrong, despite your need to feel entitled somehow.

She believes that her A wasn't as bad as mine because she didn't love her OM, she just "indulged him for a while," she said. She never planned on leaving me and that it didn't mean anything to her -- as if this is supposed to make me feel better.

It's not a contest. All betrayal is equal. An unplanned, drunken, ONS is just as much a betrayal as an LTA or multiple affairs. There is no such thing as a "justified" affair, because affairs are mirrors of OURSELVES, not others. Your wife had an affair, and at that point, you had a chance to leave or divorce her. That would have been 100% justified and left you with your dignity and self-respect intact. Instead, you did the same thing she did. To be honest, having it NOT be a revenge affair makes it worse! At least that would have maintained the appearance of justifiable anger and retribution. But no. Nope. To you, it is super important to point out that you would have had this affair no matter what, even if she hadn't had one first... because if not then it's a revenge affair, right? So it makes you look worse. You are clarifying that you were a cheater from the get-go and she just beat you to the punch. Does that make you feel better about yourself?

I don't just fuck someone to hurt someone else. People who do that have more serious problems.

Nice to know that's not the only reason you fuck people other than your spouse. Funny, the way you worded that, makes it sound like that was actually the case...

I'm also not at all unattractive (I've been told I'm a dead ringer for Tim Fleming on Heartland) and have been hit on by women all my life.

Looks and charm, you are quite the catch! I like how you slipped this entitlement in for good measure. So again, the only reason you didn't cheat on her, even though women are throwing themselves at you, is because she didn't have one first. But once she did, then you did. But it's not a revenge affair. Got it.

I replied that she did in fact suck the OM's d*ck often during her brief A without a single thought to how I might feel about it

SO disgusting. Okay, so since you would clearly never do such a thing to her, then let's hear what you were thinking about how your wife would feel while having sex with your AP? Since this wasn't a revenge affair, I'm assuming you were thinking she'd be pretty stoked and happy about it?

She's got a lot of fucking nerve and I'm seriously thinking about leaving.

I want a relationship free of the baggage of affairs; I seriously don't know if I can take it anymore.

Seriously, I just feel like leaving.

It may be time to just call it day.

Look... here is the thing you need to know. There is an old quote, "Wherever you go... there you are." If you want to leave, then do so, no one is stopping you, and I don't think anyone would argue that you two aren't toxic to each other at this point. Just be aware that separating doesn't make either of you less toxic to yourselves.

A person with self-love, with self-respect, and with healthy boundaries, would never allow themselves to lie, betray and lead a sadistic double-life in the way that you have for years now. And yes, I understand that as the victim of trauma yourself (from your wife's affair) these healthy parts of ourselves become damaged. You deserve to be angry about the trauma and abuse your wife forced on you. No one is blaming you for that, nor should they. But the only person hurting you right now, is you. You seem to be angrier at yourself than you are with her. All this anger, and defensiveness and blame-shifting...

I have a suggestion for you. Go search SI and look for posts from other BS's who are ready to call it quits. And see how they talk, about their spouses, and about themselves. Most people will certainly throw their cheating spouses under the bus, and that makes sense. But what most of them DON'T do is try so hard to convince everyone else that THEY are good people. It almost never comes up, for the simple reason that it has no bearing on the situation. The BS's integrity and motives are never in question, unless they do something to make them otherwise. When you haven't done anything wrong then there is nothing to prove. In this post, you have, from beginning to end, tried to convince everyone else of your point of view... of yourself. It is not US that you are trying to convince. We see you. Do you?

MyandI, I ask this gently and without judgment, do you actually want our constructive feedback?

I ask because the time that you have been here and you've come to us with your issues it seems like if you don't hear what I believe you want such as sympathy or acknowledgement and validation of your own personal struggles then you tend to ignore the rest.

It seems like every single one of your posts are abandoned when we see things or say things that turn it back on you and your actions and your perception. When we try to guide you in your thought process and how there are holes and blind spots you might be failing to see.

It makes it very difficult to know what you are here for if it isn't for help.

Like this particular situation. I said it above, triggers are no walk in the park for anyone involved but to then to go on with this verbiage here and put up immediate walls with your wife because your AP broke NC? To throw your hands up in the air and give up because its all just too hard.

Did you not stop to think how frustrating and painful it is for your wife? How do you not see that its your A that's still alive and well? Not for the lack of your wife trying because I believe she is. Your issues are when she triggers from things that stem from your actions. DDom is right zero accountability.

You pick and choose what to respond to and its always in defense of yourself. I can understand how deflating it might be for you to get very little support for your frustration in this, but your frustration is secondary in this situation. Your wife is the one in pain and her trauma has resurfaced, its like she's the one bleeding out and you nicked your finger pulling the knife out of her back.

Do you think your wife shouldn't feel traumatized by your cheating because she cheated first?

Why does it bother you so much that your wife feels insecure? You slept with her friend for years, you developed a full alternative relationship, you say you discussed leaving her for AP, you resist the characterization of your love for AP as fog. Now AP is back, clearly still knit in with the St. Elmo's Fire gang, mere months after you were bemoaning your wife's inability to get over the A so you could all hang out as friends again. Why do you think it's abnormal to be massively triggered in these circumstances?

Hostility is fear in disguise. Your wife is afraid of being hurt again. She's grabbing for accusations that she knows will make you lose your shit because you're so dismissive of her losing hers. If you only cheated because OW was predatory and you were weak, how does that make her feel better, any more than you feel better because OM was just a diversionary fuckfest?

I'm over 30 years out from the A, and I've learned that processing has no expiration date. Triggers come, and the baggage that rolls back around on the carousel has to be dealt with again. In my experience, the processing is far more expedient and effective if you engage with compassion instead of resist with aggression. If you need it stamped "over" and the file permanently shut, then you're probably right that your best bet is to strike out west. That seems like a waste to me, given that you've proven that you can have wonderful years in between these triggered bouts. But that's your call.

BraveSirRobin

I found your response most empathic out of all.

I'm almost getting a "girls get kid gloves, men get the sword" kind of vibe out of some replies.

I'm saying that because I'm totally reading this story 100% different from anyone else here.

His Wife: An affair of a few months, "just sex for fun", friends again with the AP.

Those three things seem like his wife is the low empathic one and he's swallowed a ton of minimisation, and that she's made it so about her that she seems toxic beyond words to me.

I think Andi has been shoved so far into rugsweeping by a controlling narcissist that his affair was the only space to feel a thing.

I honestly would divorce that woman.

To even humor a woman saying "love" is worse than destroying the man you loved beforehand with other people in the picture (the AP).

Andi is obviously worth less "than casual fun".

The power dynamics are way off.

I myself am also a romantic, when it does come to the sexual past and current, my wife's partners that were good people don't make me feel off, it's assholes that reflect on her as a person.

Like it does us all, including myself.

I'm so stunned by his wife's lack of empathy that I can't understand why anyone would tell him to show vulnerability, it doesn't look like he can, and has been under a never ending barrage of minimisation while his wife has no appreciation for karma.

So what IF it was a revenge affair, so what if it was love.

His wife sounds like a total egotist, if he chose to play Pokemon cards or saw every room of a brothel.

She needs to have some respect for the fact she started it all, and his emotions that are hard to process let alone place were all over the place afterwards.

She kicked open the door, and it's "just sex" and her narrative is total bull, a cop out, and something now being used as a literal "badge of honour".

She is now the one that "virtuously only banged for fun", it's so bad a narrative it's dead comical as much as it's sad.

She's uplifting herself and excusing herself about something she never truly regretted, hence why you are in this situation, with her AP as a friend, and you and yours as those who dared to have feelings.

I'm sure your wife was a robot while blowing him and what else, it was the purest form of sex seen, like the Buddha's smiling heart.

All those who would've seen it must've said "wow, now there's someone making sex fun and without emotions", wish my wife did that with my our friends, such a catch.

That's, what she is making out of it all.

I say leave that woman, you don't have problems finding others, maybe not demonise OW and keep it casual with her.

Your wife sounds scummy.

That's just my read though.

[This message edited by Derpmeister at 5:17 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

His Wife: An affair of a few months, "just sex for fun", friends again with the AP

Wrong. His wife is not friends again with the AP. It is the OP who is friendly with her AP, and is upset that his wife can't be friendly with his AP.

Now..MyandI: 3 year affair with her close friend, sexually and emotionally intense,wants everyone to just move on and be friends.

Is his wife remorseless? Maybe. His OW keeps contacting him, and he keeps responding. She is massively triggered. Some have trouble being kind when triggered like that.

Is OP remorseless? His posts seem to suggest a lack of empathy, that's for sure.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:33 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]

@HellFire

Ahh I stand corrected.

That said I still read it in the reverse that you do.

Maybe that means I'm not the reconciliation type, who knows.

I see someone that's more messed up by his wife's affair than he can deal with, I see his affair as direct consequence.

He seems remorseful to me while his wife seems to not be at all.

He is more defensive than he should be in my mind.

That's interpretable as a lack of empathy, or a relationship that grew like a bent tree.

And his wife expressing so comfortably from a moral high ground seems like classic "It's not as bad when I do it" that drives it home for me with those kind of statements as "just fun" etc.

I mean, I don't know how you come back from that really, without affording the other person the option to explore that which you had such "fun" at.

Is that toxic? Maybe, probably.

And I'd advise divorce again. Can dish it out, but not take it, it says everything about how she sees herself in the world and her relationship.

I think the word I'm looking for is "entitled", it's like he's deemed an extension of her, so she can't even get that he would go topsy turvy after, and it got complicated.

[This message edited by Derpmeister at 10:22 AM, April 7th (Wednesday)]