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....we are not “in a relationship like we should be” and that that’s why our special-needs child was upset this morning.

First of all, no it’s likely not. She almost 100% certainly doesn’t know we’re not in a relationship, or even what a “relationship” IS.

I looked at him, kind of dumbfounded, and asked why I would want to be in a relationship with him when things between us are the way they are? He came back with, why do you think things are the way they are?! (meaning, because we’re not in a relationship).

The point of this story is that it looks like we’re actually going to have to have a formal discussion about all these issues. And—I’m being totally conflict-avoidant here—I don’t want to have that discussion. Having that discussion will release a whole litany of complaints about our relationship, from before our first child was born.

I feel my complaints are justified. However, I know he has justified complaints of his own about me too. The trouble is, there is no resolution to any of the complaints. He has informed me, both when we were married the first time and now this time, that he values authenticity and honesty above all. He is not interested in sex, or marriage, if I don’t authentically desire those things with him. I do not, and I would be an abject liar if I went along and said or acted as if I did just to keep the peace.

I know we should get divorced. But we are not in a financial position to do so at this time, and even contemplating ripping apart my two very young children’s two-parent home paralyzes me with fear for them and their future.

If money were no object and neither of us had to work outside the home, and straight 50/50 custody was possible, I would make the leap and do it—tomorrow—but of course that’s not reality. He works an extremely demanding schedule and rarely sees them. In less than a month, we will transition to ME working the demanding schedule and him being the primary caregiver, and then *I* will barely see them. Adding to that the work hours (nonnegotiable) and how that fits in with when daycare closes and my SN child’s therapy schedule (also nonnegotiable) and I have no idea how it would even be doable without both of us in the home.

It’s a total nightmare. I guess I’m not really looking for much advice; just venting.

Vent away. That's what we're here for. I'm sorry that conversation is going to happen.

ETA: I'm confused because I thought you both were on the same page of divorce

[This message edited by LifeDestroyer at 6:23 PM, December 19th (Saturday)]

DF,

Would having a discussion like that be better if you did it at a MC office? That way there is a 3rd party there to sort of mediate...

Different situation but post D-Day during a good MC my BW finally opened up and really let loose on me over my denial of our son's special needs when he was younger. She had a hate on for me for years and once she got it out she felt better. I know I harboured a bunch of hate towards my MIL after my FIL passed away and suddenly she was in our lives (yeah I was too self centered then and it took MC to point out how much I built-up in my head).

Anyway, talking can help....even if for no other reason so the other party understands where you are at.

Honestly, I'm surprised. I was under the impression that both of you agreed that the marriage was dead beyond repair and that you were staying together in order to avoid shuttling the kids between two separate homes. It's news to me that he thought there was any hope left for a real relationship with you.

BSR, I was surprised too, because I thought that had been established. My surprise is what prompted me to post today, actually.

MCS, that’s a good idea, he’s said no more MC in the past, but maybe he’ll be willing.

Are you sure that he actually understood and that you didn’t simply assume (or hope) he understood that your marriage existed on paper only?

If this was something you explicitly discussed before, then you need only remind him of your previous agreement. Then ask if he changed his mind.

But if you never really explicitly discussed that, then you need to be honest and forthright. Maybe he will agree to stay married until the kids are older or maybe he wants to split up now.

If he does decide, either way, that he can’t live in a loveless marriage of at least another decade then you will need to put a plan for divorce, even if it’s not the best time for you. It may never be the best time anyway because the future is unpredictable.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:58 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

I looked at him, kind of dumbfounded, and asked why I would want to be in a relationship with him when things between us are the way they are? He came back with, why do you think things are the way they are?! (meaning, because we’re not in a relationship).

The point of this story is that it looks like we’re actually going to have to have a formal discussion about all these issues. And—I’m being totally conflict-avoidant here—I don’t want to have that discussion. Having that discussion will release a whole litany of complaints about our relationship, from before our first child was born.

you had your D days, the trickle and rug sweeping are done.

there is nothing to gain rehashing the affair for you there is

nothing new to know.

also nothing to gain who hurt who, who did not meet whos

needs. that will just be more blaming.

instead talk about and only about how to move forward.

talk about what the both of you need to better repair the

broken trust.

talk about both of your needs and how you both want them

met.

talk about how you both can improve talking with each other.

in other words doing only positive work that will get

positive results.

i think this is a great sign from your BH. after the affairs,

and divorce your BH married you again. showed he wants

you. though your WW behavior knocked him so hard he

had to take the mandatory 8 count. then left him so rattled,

clinching trying to survive till the bell rang and he could

recover from his corner. the bell has rung again and he wants

to meet you in the middle of the ring.

worth the shot because neither one of you are happy and

this appears to be an opportunity to change.

BluerThanBlue, I’m not sure if it was initially unclear or if he’s just become more unhappy about it (understandable). Either way, that’s why we need to have a come-to-the-point conversation.

He would be completely within his rights to decide to divorce whenever, as any and all spouses are for any reason—but it’s not just me for whom “now” timing would be inconvenient. He would be negatively impacted too, both vis-a-vis the children and financially. Definitely a truism that divorce sucks for everybody involved.

For what it’s worth, I’m very sure that if we didn’t have kids, he’d have already been long gone.

oldtruck,

I don’t know how much my A factors into things from his perspective. It was 11 years ago and he verbally told me a long time ago that he had moved well past it. Certainly he perhaps still has trust issues or resentment from my infidelity, which would be totally understandable, but I think the current/more recent past issues all stem from too much basic incompatibility and exacerbated by parenting struggles and disagreements.

Do you feel that this conversation could, in any way, positively impact your relationship? Are you open to a positive impact to your relationship? Do you see any way to move forward with your H into a true relationship?

You say you both have justifiable complaints of each other. Are you willing to make changes?

SadieMae,

To be honest, I’m not sure either of us CAN make changes. So many of the issues on both sides seem to be rooted in aspects of our ingrained personalities that don’t mesh, and have never meshed. Neither of us are “wrong”, I believe, but we are just not suited as spouses. Bare honesty: we never were, not even when we were married the first time, before kids, before I cheated, etc. (To be clear: my H is not why I cheated, or even how I justified cheating.)

I’ve posted before that I admit we remarried for really bad reasons in retrospect. I felt I “should” do it to atone for my infidelity. Also, I knew we were rather incompatible as H and W but I knew he was a truly good person—morals, integrity, work ethic, etc.—and I felt he would be a great dad.

Unfortunately, as kids and parenting aren’t something you can test & observe beforehand, what I thought were comparable values on childrearing ALSO turned out to be an area of incompatibility and difficulty. We’ve only made it this far because neither of us are anxious to break up their home.

So no, I don’t think it’s in any way salvageable at this point, at least not in a way that would lead to actual happiness between us.

It's news to me that he thought there was any hope left for a real relationship with you.

Same. You've made it seem as if you both know the romantic side of the marriage is over, and the only reason you are still together,is for the children.

But this post says he doesn't feel that way. And he has complained "again" about the lack of intimacy.

The lack of intimacy: neither of us have initiated anything sexual or physically romantic in over 20 months. He told me point blank a long time ago that he didn’t want to have sex if it was done out of wifely obligation on my end without true desire behind it. That is why I haven’t initiated. Prior to my no longer initiating, I always did (for probably 3 years or so) because he told me that was the only way he could know I was actually interested and not just acquiescencing. I told him shortly before I stopped initiating that it had been a long time of that arrangement and I would like to feel some interest from him too—especially since even when I did do 100% of the initiating, he was often too tired or visibly (and sometimes physically, i.e. couldn’t get an erection) not interested. Despite me discussing that with him, he never again initiated—and neither have I.

We have had multiple conversations, starting with our youngest being around 10 months old, about the overall state of our relationship being poor. He called me a fucking bitch and told me he hated me this past summer. My complaints about zero emotional intimacy and communication beyond one-sentence mundane answers dates back YEARS, as have my concerns that after our firstborn was born he unilaterally seemed to decide that being a father meant stopping being a spouse. Aside from the odd argument over finances, we haven’t had a real conversation about anything not about the children in at least two years.

But after all that, as I said in my first post, apparently there is still confusion and we need to have a much more frank conversation.

1 darknessfalls, you keep talking about past problems.

2 you keep telling us how divorcing would be bad for the

both of you.

3 life for the both of you sucks.

your BH approaches you to try to move forward, improving

your lives.

you choose to continue citing the past and complain instead

of working on a solution.

what is the motivation to not try, specially when divorce is

not in the cards.

If divorce is really off the table for you at this point, then what reason do you have for NOT being willing meet him at the table and at least try?

oldtruck,

They are current problems that have been problems for a long time—that is different than past problems.

Nowhere did he ever approach me and try to move forward. He said to me, loudly and apropos of absolutely nothing, something that I don’t remember and then “....because her PARENTS are not in a RELATIONSHIP like they SHOULD be. THAT is why she’s upset!”

He has not, at any point in recent past, approached me about anything—we don’t talk beyond perfunctory brief statements or questions about the kids.

[This message edited by Darkness Falls at 8:51 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

No stop sign.

Maybe I can help.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A DOCTOR AND I HAVE NO TRAINING IN THIS AREA. READ AND CONSUME AT YOUR OWN RISK. CONSULT YOUR PHYSICIAN. ETC.

I don't talk about it much here, but we lived through years of dead bedroom, and hella much frustration, after years of an active, satisfying sex life without a lot of effort on either of our parts.

*I realize that I am jumping into just this aspect of your situation without preamble and without any consideration for the rest of the moving parts in your scenario. Please bear with me for a moment.*

My husband's 'interest' took a nose dive off of a cliff in our mid-ish thirties. We chalked it up to work stress, life stress, family stress, plain old stress, and God knows, there was enough of that to go around. Both of us had uber demanding jobs with insane hours, especially for two working parents with young children.

Our kids, while not special needs, were not especially easy, middle of the bell curve kids.

1. They were 21 months apart.

2. Both boys.

3. Both off the charts IQ, literally, but

4. Both early in life diagnosis ADD/ADHD.

This was in the early-ish days of ADD/ADHD as a mainstream diagnosis and Ritalin was being handed out like a wonder drug.

We and our pediatrician weren't so sure about that.

So we went our own way, and to this day, I am not sure if that was the right call. I won't say it was, I won't say it wasn't, I honestly just don't know. We never put either kid on Ritalin nor any similar behavior/mood modification drug. Instead, we strove to keep them engaged and active and physically involved in sports, extracurricular activities, etc.

I wish I could tell you that it was a sufficient stand in for medication. I cannot. I just don't know. Both kids struggled with their own versions of difficulties. Ritalin might have helped? or not. Who knows.

But it wore us the fuck out. We were often flat assed exhausted, keeping two boys 'busy enough' not to have time for poor choices/poor impulse control, engaged to their capabilities, etc.

Meanwhile, our bosses didn't care, and our families were world class unsupportive. (Don't get me started.) Classic case of "Not. My. Problem."

Anyway, physical intimacy just, died.

At first I fought that like a champ- I've described it elsewhere. And then I just gave up and stopped beating my head against that wall.

And then, by the time other pressures began to subside (kids grown and out of the house, I much reduced my work obligation, didn't need the stress or the income anymore) Husband's job went super nova in terms of demand and stress.

You can't scream at a stressed out, overworked guy to give him an erection. LOL, ASK ME HOW I KNOW.

Both of us became experts at avoiding intimacy while still living together and sharing bathrooms.

We did actually stop sleeping together for years, not so much to avoid intimacy but because his sleep patterns were so disrupted by stress that we kept each other awake all night if we tried to share a bed.

Long story, won't go into it here, but a few (or a little more) years ago I ran into some info/research on the topic.

Now, we'd already consulted physicians about Husband's lack of libido and increasingly difficult struggles with ED and got, literally, NOWHERE. Like, beating our heads against a wall.

Husband was then and is now still a younger man in excellent health and physical condition, with no history of cigarette smoking and exceptionally rare (like, not even yearly) cigar smoking, moderate alcohol consumption, regular exercise, appropriate weight, no diabetes or hypertension issues, etc.

Without even checking his testosterone, my husband's internist immediately went to, "Well, maybe you just aren't into your wife anymore."

Husband protested: he wasn't asking his doctor for help to get an erection because he wasn't attracted to his wife. He was asking for help because he wanted a sex life with his wife... but his dick wouldn't cooperate.

(Trust me. I offered so many varied and innumerate exits by this point that this would not have been an issue.)

I was stunned then, when it happened, but the whole 'man-opause' industry had yet to take root.

If I knew then what I know now, I would have gone straight to our state's medical review board and filed a malpractice complaint.

Fast forward, once I became aware, I *demanded* a work up.

First I had to convince Husband to get over his denial, then I had to strong arm said internist through my husband, then we both had to wait for said internist to plod through his version of testosterone supplementation.

To say that the internist was *very conservative* was an understatement.

He put Husband on the barest minimum of topical treatment and was at that extremely conservative about it.

In the meantime, while this is happening, I'm stepping back and giving both my husband and his doctor room to work this out. No guy needs a nagging nanny when he's trying to work out his man juice issues.

So I backed off, big time.

And over the next 2 years, things got, WORSE. MUCH WORSE.

Still no sex, no initiation on Husband's part, but OMG his entire mood, will to live, outlook on life, energy level, everything, just, TANKED.

And work was continuing to be super nova work. =/ =/

Husband had kept all of his lab results and drs. visit notes. I *finally* pulled my own head out of my ass, grabbed this bull by the horns, sat down with all of the lab results and drs. notes, and started charting and graphing. And reading. and researching.

OMFG. OMFG.

What I found:

Topical testosterone works for those for whom it works. It can be a matter of absorption, or reception, or the amount of testosterone that person is still naturally producing- but if it works, peace, it works.

For those for whom it does NOT work, either absorption issues, or receptiveness, or native testosterone levels, it flat out DOES NOT WORK.

In fact, it can act as a negative feedback loop: THE VERY PRESENCE OF AN INADEQUATE TOPICAL TESTOSTERONE TREATMENT CAN INHIBIT THE PATIENT'S OWN PRODUCTION OF TESTOSTERONE, THUS LOWERING THE OVERALL TESTOSTERONE LEVEL.

AND THAT IS *EXACTLY* WHAT HAPPENED TO MY HUSBAND.

I blew a gasket. I fucking blew a gasket. I am not kidding.

And that caused my husband's internist to dig both heels in even harder- HE'S THE DOCTOR HERE.

OK, I get that, and I *do* respect it- BUT IF YOU'RE THE DOCTOR, FUCKING *BE* THE DOCTOR- OR STEP OFF.

The internist wanted to *graaaaadually* ramp up on the topical treatment- meanwhile I've read the research that says that when it works, it works, and when it doesn't, it doesn't- move on- there are other therapies.

And also in the meantime, he'd run another blood panel on my husband.

I'm going to be a little loosey goosey about this part, I haven't thought about it in a couple of years now, so I'm not as exacting about it as I was then-

but there are a couple of different testosterone levels that are measured on these blood panels. The one that, IIRC, most directly correlates with boner production (not to put too fine a point on it) and libido is free testosterone.

After the first stage of the internist's plan to gradually ramp up the topical testosterone, my husband's free testosterone level was lower than that of A 94 YEAR OLD MAN. We do not know to *exactly* what age my husband's free testosterone level correlated- because the chart ended at 94 years of age AND MY HUSBAND'S FREE TESTOSTERONE LEVEL WAS LOWER THAN THAT.

OMG.

I 'fired' that internist on the spot. I literally told Husband: decide to whom you want to be married, that internist or me. LOL. AND I'M PRETTIER.

As an aside, this is Husband's doctor, I get that. As an internist, he is more than capable, and Husband is bonded with him. I did not demand that Husband fire him as a personal physician, that was/is not my call to make. As a physician who is influencing our intimate life (KILLING IT) I most certainly had/have a say about *that.*

So Husband continues to see this physician as an internist, and in that Husband is otherwise in excellent physical condition, and otherwise this internist seems to be competent, I am OK with that.

But I fired the fuck out of him as a male sexual health physician.

I did some digging and found adequately credentialed men's health physicians in our area with whom I was familiar and comfortable, who had established practices and depth in treating ED, etc.

*I MADE THE APPOINTMENT.*

And I charted out and typed up *several years* of lab results, and supplied the back up documentation and drs. notes.

And I sent Husband off with all of this on board to see a dr. who specialized in this area.

OMG. OMG. OMG.

Instead of lolligagging around for another YEAR OR MORE with *graaaaaaaaaaaadually* ramping up topical testosterone, this practice took a proactive pivot.

First, they did require Husband/us to hold course for a several week period (I don't remember exactly, but it was maybe a month? or so? don't quote me) for the topical testosterone treatment to be depleted/no longer in play.

Then they took more bloodwork and got baseline readings.

THEN they went straight to injectable testosterone.

And they titrated that- calibrated it to Husband's blood level readings.

It was a process but it was and is and continues to be AN EFFECTIVE PROCESS.

THE RESULTS WERE DAMNED NEAR IMMEDIATE. :) :)

ALLOW ME TO REPEAT THIS: THE RESULTS WERE DAMNED NEAR IMMEDIATE. :) :)

^^^ And this not only affected our intimate life, and Husband's sexual health, but also his overall health, mood, and demeanor.

Husband is a much happier man with normal testosterone levels- irregardless of our intimate life, but especially so considering it.

I've not brought this up too much on SI because, AFAIK at this point, Husband's indiscretion was waaaaaaay before anything like this issue had taken root. I think I'm pretty accurate in saying that when Husband did The Stupid, all it took was a stiff breeze to get him hard. =/

The subsequent dead bedroom that happened in between the incident itself and my much later full discovery and understanding of it is probably only (but enormously) relevant in terms of the effect that the combination of the two separate things, plus the passage of time, had/has on me.

True, true, and unrelated on Husband's side of the equation.

OMG WTF! on my side of the equation.

But here's what:

To this day we don't know, will never know, if it's genetics or predisposition or what that contributed to the set up for this problem.

But the literature is pretty clear:

Toxic stress is destructive to normal testosterone levels.

If your husband, Darkness Falls, keeps putting 'initiating' off onto you, if he's asking you to carry your entire sex life,

this particular factor might be in play.

It stands out to me.

See if he's amenable to getting his testosterone levels checked. You may be surprised to find that some, if not many, of your answers are there.

Incidentally, as a sequela to my research on Husband's testosterone levels, I also had my levels checked. I also use a very small amount of testosterone cream. Post menopause- testosterone was what I missed the most.

Not anymore.

Also, another thing that I ran across in my research:

Men pursuing 'extracurricular' sexual involvement while trying to sort out an out of left field issue with ED is *not* unusual. Wasn't our particular situation but we can both see how it might evolve.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A PHYSICIAN. I HAVE NO EXPERTISE NOR TRAINING IN THIS AREA. PLEASE CONSULT YOUR OWN PHYSICIAN.

[This message edited by marriageredux959 at 9:57 PM, December 18th (Friday)]

..we are not “in a relationship like we should be”

BH opened the door, at least knocked.

and that that’s why our special-needs child was upset this morning.

First of all, no it’s likely not. She almost 100% certainly doesn’t know we’re not in a relationship, or even what a “relationship” IS.

I looked at him, kind of dumbfounded, and asked why I would want to be in a relationship with him when things between us are the way they are?

you slamming the door closed, pretending you did not here

him knock.

He came back with, why do you think things are the way they are?! (meaning, because we’re not in a relationship).

all my responses are based on this.

you both trying again, trying IC, cannot not make things

worse. with things so bad that should be the motivation to

try.

Ok DF, I’m coming at this from a class of 2010 perspective.

The point of this story is that it looks like we’re actually going to have to have a formal discussion about all these issues. And—I’m being totally conflict-avoidant here—I don’t want to have that discussion. Having that discussion will release a whole litany of complaints about our relationship, from before our first child was born.

BSR, I was surprised too, because I thought that had been established. My surprise is what prompted me to post today, actually

.

These two things contradict each other. If you know that you have never had this kind of conversation with him, how can you possibly be surprised?

Which leads to

He has informed me, both when we were married the first time and now this time, that he values authenticity and honesty above all.

Are you being honest and authentic with him? Does he know you come here and say terrible things about him? Does he understand that after all this time you can not say anything positive about him? Does he know the level of resentment you have for him? Does he know that you want a divorce but feel you can’t for financial reasons?

You say you have conversations, but have you really told him exactly how you feel about him?

He may be a difficult person to talk to, but I’m sure he feels your resentment and animosity towards him. A snide comment about the state of your relationship should not shock you.

I don’t think it’s in any way salvageable at this point, at least not in a way that would lead to actual happiness between us.

I would agree with you here, unless you both are willing to put in the work that it takes.

WOES, I don’t know if he knows I still come to SI. I never mention it because he told me in 2012 or 2013 that I needed to never talk to him about this place again.

It’s true that I say more negative than positive about him, but I’ve always maintained that he’s a good person of excellent character and that he deserves to be happy.

More replies later.