SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

ISurvivedSoFar - I think you might be responding to me, (I think) so I will at least answer from my viewpoint. My apologies if I misunderstand.

I think again it comes back to context. Since most of this seems to be directed at a specific poster (ff), I would say that there was a time when he would be trying to ask about something specific in his healing and it would just be a barrage of "you must confess". It hasn't happened in a long while really because he's not a routine poster as much as in the past. I think there are times we can answer what's on hand and get them through that aspect. That's basically all I am saying, it's contextual.

I felt like personally, I just tried to revisit it with him from time to time or when it's more relative to his post. As God Heals said, that's really all we can do. It the WS forum, WS have a lot of different issues, some are interrelated. If you pull the string on some, improvements can occur. I guess I look at it as encouraging progress and improvements move towards the goal we are aiming for with WS - for them to become better people, better spouses.

When it comes to posting it as an R story, then the line becomes understandably drawn. He is not in R. He may in some ways be a better husband and showing up for his wife, sure, but he's not in reconciliation. I will not "head pet" and say "yep you made it".

I will put it to another example - there were times in Daddy Dom's journey he was repeating some of the same mistakes over and over. I remember you were at your wits end. He kept trying, and posting, and taking his 2 by 4's and working and unraveling what needed to come next. Most WS are like this, it takes a long time for us to get to where we are going. We can tell people the right path and them not follow it until they have healed enough for what we are telling them to resonate. We can also help them as they are working on something specific that is further removed. I will give it to DD, he took some hard punches, and I respect that. But, he was given a good amount of encouragement as well. Same with FF - he has earned his backlashes, and he has been given encouragement over some things. Change is slow, and sometimes the things we want people to change, that we can see they need to address, comes later in the story than what we want. Sure, its frustrating. We can always not answer when it's not within us to answer.

In the case of ff posting in positive R, I think it was correct that people thought that wasn't right. But, if he comes to the forum tomorrow saying "here is my newest realization of what I am struggling with", then I will greet that with compassion in hopes it the next string to pull to get to the full result. I hope that makes sense.

Also, I will reiterate that it's different when we as WS are trying to respond. We always have their BS in the back of our mind, but we have also done many of the things that they have done. I try and think about how I got from point A to point B and try and recreate that as much as I can. Sometimes it's with a 2 by 4, but I try and give those with an ounce of compassion because I have compassion for myself. To me, being here and trying is better than if they aren't.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:36 PM, December 14th (Monday)]

It's actually kind of hypocritical I feel like as a WS to be too condemning of behavior I am obviously capable of.

I feel as if this is the core of the issue being discussed to some degree. What a lot of people are asking is, is it okay/necessary for someone to get upset with someone else for something they themselves are guilty of?

To that end, I point to AA. How can a bunch of alcoholics give advice to another alcoholic? Didn't they do the same things? What right do they have to tell anyone else how to recover? If an AA member comes in and says, "I'm still drinking, but I feel pretty good about it and feel recovered in many ways, and seem to drive just fine when I'm drunk, I mean, I haven't hit anyone else in a few years, so I'm pretty recovered. How dare you get upset with me for driving drunk when we all know you did the same thing."

I feel capable and justified in condemning condemnable behavior. It is unclear to me what someone else's bad behavior has to do with my own, or vice-versa. To me, that's one more excuse in the old toolbox, to blame the accusers for getting upset rather than blaming the perp for their doing the bad thing. Having done the bad thing myself means I've walked in that person's shoes. Having had consequences means I know how hard they are. Having done the hard work, I know how scary that can feel and how impossible it can seem. And having told other people that they know nothing about my life, only to later come out of the fog and realize that they knew EXACTLY who I was and what I was thinking and doing, I realize that sometimes a 2x4 (and sometimes a wrecking ball) are needed for thicker skulls.

Again, and maybe this is just me, but if that AA person says, "I'm still driving drunk and you have no right to tell me not to because you did", I cannot, in good conscience, allow someone else to get hurt by this other person's actions, because I was too afraid or too restrained to say something, and say it forcefully enough for the message to get through. Others can think what they like of me, I will sleep like a baby having done all I could to have saved both the alcoholic, and anyone he may continue to hurt. While agree that being harsh shouldn't be the first tool we reach for, we aren't talking about that here. We are talking about the LAST tool in the toolbox, for the people for whom all else has failed.

I was not really contradicting you Daddy Dom. I understand what you are saying. I wasn't calling YOU a hypocrite.

What I was trying to illustrate, and I will use your example - in AA yes people are going to correct you and not condone your behavior. But, and this is an assumption, I am not in AA - I think it's probably done with compassion. Tough love and compassion are usually used hand in hand.

If someone is in AA and they drink, they are still welcomed back the next day to try again.

And, someone who is a recovered alcoholic still understands the behaviors even if they are not condoning them.

My point was really - it's about context - am I going to head pet FF and say Yep, you are in R? No, I am not. But, if he comes here tomorrow struggling with something, am I going to head pet him? Depends on what it is he is saying.

I personally think that any thriving I have done in this forum was a mixture of both things. Being told hard things, but also being understood. Both things can happen and they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I do feel like a hypocrite if I act like I don't understand the power of limerance and tell someone to snap out of it and get over themselves. That's what I was referring to - I wasn't really calling you out in any way.

I was not really contradicting you Daddy Dom. I understand what you are saying. I wasn't calling YOU a hypocrite.

Didn't think you were, but thank you for clarifying. :)

The following is from a speech by Theodore Roosevelt entitled The Man in the Arena speech. Brene Brown quotes it in one of her books. I agree that it's a great quote. I point this out not to embarrass, but to inform.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”

Thanks hikingout - I'm not upset or worried and agree with your comments. To be sure we try and try and try to help.

DD deserved his bashing as he readily admits. Believe me, there were some scary times to watch someone warp his world around the victim narrative that he clung to for dear life. I see it all the time from other WS's just as I see other BS's in the sitch I found myself similar to what EllisKMAS describes so well.

BS's have similar struggles too. Seeing a struggling BS that is dealing with an unremorseful WS... I get it - I was there. I didn't want to believe that about my ws either. I didn't want to face that truth. But SIers kept telling me. And telling me. And telling me some more. And I argued and stomped my feet and said they didn't know wtf they were talking about. But they did because of allllll those thousands of stories and experiences just like mine. And thank god they kept telling me over and over again. Did I appreciate it at the time? No. Do I appreciate it now? You betcha.

SAME FOR ME as a BS. That frustration you saw from me was me not seeing what I needed to do to get healthier. I did the same - stomped my feet because I was special and they didn't understand me. Only problem is they did and I just didn't get it. Thank goodness for the good people here who stuck with me when I was so desperate. I am forever grateful.

In the case of ff posting in positive R, I think it was correct that people thought that wasn't right. But, if he comes to the forum tomorrow saying "here is my newest realization of what I am struggling with", then I will greet that with compassion in hopes it the next string to pull to get to the full result. I hope that makes sense.

Me too HO, me too. I only wish that were true and that anyone who struggles gets the relief they deserve, WS and BS alike.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 3:54 PM, December 14th (Monday)]

Great post, ISSF. I couldn't agree more. I didn't think you were upset, I thought more you were trying to bridge what I said with what WOES said. I feel like there is such a big dose of Humility that I have experienced through this entire process that I try and walk that tightrope between compassion and condemning. It's never going to be perfect for sure.

I agree with Hellfire that this post was indirectly about ff, and I agree with hikingout that the real catalyst for the ire was his post in Positive Reconciliation Stories. There is an enormous gulf between "I know it's wrong, but I can't bring myself to confess" and "I know that continuing to lie is my best course of action, and I want to reassure other liars that this approach is valid and justified."

What's next? A WS who ends the physical aspects of their affair and continues on with the EA because they feel that the emotional outlet makes them a better spouse at home? One could argue that it's an improvement when no genitalia is involved (no risk of STDs, no possibility of pregnancy). Do we validate the positive steps that WS has taken because their BS now has a physically faithful spouse who seems more like themselves again? I hope everyone here would agree that that's ridiculous.

The fact that ff could believe that posting on PRS was a good idea, and that he could receive encouragement for it, doesn't read to me like we beat him down. It reads like silence gradually came to be interpreted as acceptance of his views.

“Let's stop tip toeing around it. You started this thread because of what people say to FF.”

I was not trying to tip toe around nothing. I just didn’t want to call out a certain person. That’s all. But I think we all know who we are talking.

“You used a drug addict as an example earlier. Someone I love is an addict(clean now for 5 years). After awhile, we realized we couldn't make her get clean,she had to do it on her own. But,at no point, did we ever look the other way,and say it was ok to use heroin”

I did use a drug addiction as an example. I never did say it was ok for his sister to use drugs... we just don’t try to help her anymore because she don’t want to help herself first. We are looking the other but that don’t mean we are ok with it. We just don’t have nothing to offer at this point because we have tried anything we could to help but she clearly don’t want the help.

yes I think we all know by now who we are talking about. I don’t think he feels like his in R. But his not. It takes two people to be in R. We don’t need to tell him it’s ok because it’s not. I get the feeling that’s what people here are thinking that’s what I am thinking. It’s not.

Since my name keeps popping up, I thought it appropriate to respond.

For the record, it was an absolute mistake for me to post in the PRS thread for a number of reasons. I didn't read the requirements of the thread on the first page. More importantly, I should have given more thought to how those reading it would take it. I certainly didn't intend to thumb my nose at anyone or trigger folks. Clearly I should have been more introspective.

For anyone negatively impacted by that, I sincerely apologize. What I was intending to show and was was perceived were two entirely different things and I am sorry for that.

dayum godheals..

didn’t have the nerve to do this in the first place.

You didn’t have the guts

I have more respect for a person who actually stop on their own without someone telling them too or their spouse caught them then for some people who got caught

I mean you realize this is 99.9% of your WS audience here? oof. Not much of a shocker that so very few WS have chimed in. It feels like such an attack on us all. And though you said you don't think you are better..idk kinda has a superior tone to me. But that's not really the point I'm trying to make. Just something I wanted to touch on.

I am sorry but for the people here that have such a strong opinions about something that you didn’t do in the first place should maybe give your two cents and then move on.

Nope, that's a negative. That just isn't something I can do. I understand your argument about "beating a dead horse" but if someone is going to continue to post here, and somehow try to convince themselves that lying is ever a good path to take, nah. How can we support that?

I don’t think it’s fair for people who didn’t actually make this choice on their own to keep shoving this STRONG opinion down someone’s throat who just didn’t have the nerve to do this in the first place.

Who is going to them then? The .1% here that confessed? Where are they? Far and few in between. This would be an ill ran forum if we left it to that.

I think sometimes people forget where they are when posting here. That is really the bottom line to this whole notion. This site isn't just about getting out of infidelity, it's also surviving it, overcoming it, and thriving. While there are many paths to that, it really does require key steps. Steps that SI was built on and that isn't going to change to suit your agenda. And with that said,

Just because you don’t agree that don’t mean that the other person is wrong.

Yes, yes it does. Lying will always be wrong.

You don’t actually know how it really feels to look your spouse in the eye ON YOUR OWE without your spouse asking or have a feeling about it, and tell them what you did. It’s the hardest thing I had to do in my life to this day.

Hmm that's pretty bold of you godheals to suggest that we non-confessors don't know what it feels like to look our BS in the eyes and deliver hurtful truth after hurtful truth. How hard it was knowing that for sure this truth was going to be the one that does us in. Yeah, no, you're right we don't know anything about that.

That is really the only reason I even replied here. I may be the only one taking offense to that remark (all of them for that matter), but let me just say, I feel that is completely inaccurate and a disservice to every single one of us WS that displayed the courage and fortitude to give our BS the truth in the wake of being caught. Because, at the juncture of discovery, no matter how that comes to be, the result is the same. The cheating is done, there's no taking that back, we landed here for the same reason and at that point it's what we do next that is important.

Foreverlabeled,

I understand where you are coming from. I think if you take the context of the fact she is talking about someone who would presumably or highly likely have to confess on his own that is why she is using that example. She could find out through other means but what we know of his situation this is not the most likely scenario. So, in essence we are asking him to be part of the 1 percent or whatever it works out to be. That is the only reason she is talking about how hard that is and why it truly is a rare occurrence.

I do agree it's still the best way forward if the affair is undiscovered and that's what we should be encouraging. I just see that Godheals was focused on feeling compassion for a specific person and framing her post and responses around his specific situation. Because she was being vague, it could come across in the way you are saying. I am not sure she was trying to frown on anyone else as I think she is typically a pretty compassionate poster.

ff4152, do you consider your marriage reconciled?

what we know of his situation this is not the most likely scenario.

I disagree. If his OW does the work on herself, she very well may reach out, and apologize to his wife. It was a 7 year affair. She told people. All it will take is for one of them to be cheated on, and realize his wife deserves to know, because all BS need to know. Admittedly, this is unlikely. But the OW working on herself,and growing a conscious is very likely. Or,maybe she is cheated on, and realizes the damage she has done to another marriage,and reaches out to her. Very possible. He is counting on this woman to remain loyal to him,and protect him, by keeping his secret.

I've encouraged him to confess. Not only for all of the hundreds of reasons she deserves to know,but also for himself. He deserves to be loved for who he is, not who he pretends to be.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:54 AM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

HO, none of that was lost on me.

But in making her point, she called the majority of the WS posters spineless cowards. It felt disheartening to read such critical statements, when I have seen and read pages upon pages here proving the opposite.

Oh it was loud and clear, to leave a poster alone, and move on. I don't think it was necessary to shame the majority in the process, though.

This whole post is ironic if you think about. Redundant but on the other side of the spectrum. Endless cycle of different drum beating.

He is counting on this woman to remain loyal to him, and protect him, by keeping his secret.

I've encouraged him to confess.... for himself. He deserves to be loved for who he is, not who he pretends to be.

ding ding ding.

I know I'm late to this thread, but I just want to say address the idea that because I didn't confess and was caught instead, then I have no standing to tell someone that their lying is wrong.

This entire forum is for WS's to get advice and guidance and support from other WS's. BS's too, but other WS's. I've learned so much from them about myself, the things I was doing right ands things I was doing horribly wrong. What right did they have to tell me to get my head out of my behind when they themselves had their own head far up there too? Because that's what this place is for. New WS's come here all the time saying how their AP is different and they're different and we just don't understand because they're in luuuuurv and that it's okay to TT or minimize and gaslight. And it's not. And as WS's, we call them out on it. And not only do we have a right, but our voice is stronger because we've BTDT. We know because we screwed up and we learned.

If I am now trying to live a life of honesty, transparency and authenticity, how can I condone the opposite in a fellow WS? How can I not tell that WS that their path is the antithesis of everything WS's here strive for?

If everything we ever said to another WS was only okay if we did that exact thing from the outset, then most of us couldn't ever post.

I get what everyone is saying.

I will stand by my thought that the likelihood this OW outs him is probably slim, we are always saying the majority of WS don't do the work, if you remember this woman 2 months after the ending of the affair found her "soul mate". The chances she is even thinking about any of this? No idea. None of us has any idea. At the very least it hasn't come to light yet, so it does still put him confessing as the most likely way she will find out. I am not saying there is no way she won't find out any other way, but right now he is her best chance of learning about it.

Anyway, it is not my intention to take up for FF for not confessing. I basically was just identifying a little bit with where Godheals was coming from.

In terms of confessing on my own, I don't think that I am more or less of a coward than any other WS including my husband who was caught. He admits he couldn't tell me if he would have ever confessed on his own because there was no end game plan. I think there are other WS who have either done or would say the same.

I had a counselor straight up tell me not to tell . I fired her, but still part of me clung to that for a few weeks.

So it goes back to if you keep someone like that on our site, and they post only in the WS forum is there more or less of a chance of them having more epiphanies than if they are shunned? If we help him with peripheral issues then does it chip away at the one we want to see drop? I strongly suspect that's what precipitated God Heal's post, and I do understand that, even if the premise is somewhat misguided.

If I am now trying to live a life of honesty, transparency and authenticity, how can I condone the opposite in a fellow WS? How can I not tell that WS that their path is the antithesis of everything WS's here strive for?

If everything we ever said to another WS was only okay if we did that exact thing from the outset, then most of us couldn't ever post.

I agree for the most part.. As a WS, I think I have to have a spot of humility in doing so, meaning I am going to deliver the message differently. There is going to be some compassion usually, some been there done that. There is a difference between condemning a person rather than not condoning a behavior?

I try and keep in the back of my mind that some of the most paralyzing factors for WS who don't do the work is SHAME. That's why I say the context of whether it's put in the WS forum or somewhere else matters. But, if they are here in the WS forum, sure we can tell them it's wrong, in fact I think we are best equipped to tell them why it's wrong and how harmful the behavior is. But, I think compassion is key because eventually we want them to get that towards themselves. We want to encourage them to keep talking, knowing it's a long path and it will take a while for all that we are telling them to be absorbed.

As I have said before it would be weird and a redflag if they show up with too much compassion for themselves before they have rolled up their sleeves and worked on it. But, they need to know they are redeemable if they choose to walk the path to be.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:38 PM, December 15th (Tuesday)]

“But in making her point, she called the majority of the WS posters spineless cowards. It felt disheartening to read such critical statements, when I have seen and read pages upon pages here proving the opposite.“

Where in the hell did I called anyone a spineless cowards? Where? Please point that out to me!!! Oh wait that’s just how you took it!!! Stop putting words in my month. Stop taking things out of context just because you didn’t like what I said.

Let me get this RiGHT. So if I say your “throwing stones” at a certain person because of their choice. That’s wrong. It’s not throwing stones. But that’s how I see it but then again I am reading it all wrong. But I say something like I know the “feeling” and what is like to confuses an A on my own and some can’t relate I must be calling everyone a spineless coward.

Did I get that right??

All I was pointing out was my view and perspective on a choice I made and how I know the feeling of it. In all reality some don’t know that feeling. And no I don’t think I am better then because I did this. Sorry if that’s how you took it!! Sorry if you misread what I said!

I think the reason FL posted what she did,is because you said you had more respect for those who confessed, because it was brave..and basically.."how dare you try to tell someone to do something (confess) when you didn't have the balls to do it..

You didn't call them spineless cowards. But the implication was there.

[This message edited by HellFire at 12:57 PM, December 15th (Tuesday)]