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I'm having a hard time with the idea that only WSs experiencing a d-day are "worthy" of giving advice or posting.

I don’t think it’s about being worthy necessarily. We all give advice based on what we perceive or think, or even what we’ve heard from others that was helpful, not always based on having the actual experience. I’ve never been an alcoholic, but I can advise somebody to join AA, for instance.

I do think thought that advice often means more to the receiver when it’s coming from somebody who has had the actual experience. Using this thread, if I’m struggling to tell my spouse about cheating and somebody who has never done that says oh yeah, you should definitely tell, I’m far more likely to dismiss that advice and move on to the next person. (Probably not the best example because I’m totally in the you should tell camp, just saying I think it’s natural to take advice more seriously from those who have been there done that.)

I am one of those that found out about an affair years later. In my case my WH did no work after the affairs stopped, just moved to the next one. Had he not done that, then maybe I would see things a little different? Maybe it would sting a bit less having been lied to all those years? Probably not, but there’s a slim possibility, I guess. I’m honestly more in the he trapped me in a life and kept lying to me to keep me in that life camp.

I would also add that stopping an affair on your own is a great thing. I do think somebody should get credit for that. Stopping an affair because an AP moved on like my WH’s first EA partner, well, going to get far less credit for that.

[This message edited by landclark at 8:41 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

If a woman passes out at a party and is raped while she's unconscious, should you tell her about it when she wakes up?

Well, I don't know DD. How does that benefit the rapist?

(Heavy,heavy sarcasm)

Well, I don't know DD. How does that benefit the rapist?

(Heavy,heavy sarcasm)

I mean, she would be happier if she never knew, right? She might even continue to be friends with that guy, maybe even date him one day and if they start dating, that will erase the rape part of it and they could be happy together without that one mistake having to be dealt with. It's for her own good.

If a woman passes out at a party and is raped while she's unconscious, should you tell her about it when she wakes up?

This is the best metaphor I've seen. Would she be "happier" living in ignorance of what happened to her? Maybe. It's certainly going to be traumatic to find out she was violated. But without that knowledge, she can't get her physical health checked out. She can't decide whether to file a report and pursue legal action against the perpetrator. She can't prevent future interactions that she would no longer want to have with her rapist. And she might live forever with the feeling that something went terribly wrong that night... and never know what it was.

From the rapist's point of view, though: he regrets it. He's not going to do it again. She's blissfully unaware of the fact that she was violated. And most importantly, if she never finds out, there's no chance he's going to jail.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 9:21 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

Ah, but she feels off. She knows something happened, but she isn't sure what. Eventually maybe she finds out, or figures it out, years later. Not only will she have to deal with the trauma of the rape, but the fact that others knew, and no one cared enough about her to tell her.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:34 AM, December 22nd (Tuesday)]

Sundance, I seriously doubt that a WS who was stilling cheating, pining after their AP, and/or actively resenting their BS spend a lot of time on SI trying to give advice.

A spouse who hasn't had a Dday but isn't doing any of the things listed above might be a step ahead of that person but they're still miles behind the person who confessed or was exposed but then subsequently did the work.

Sundance, I seriously doubt that a WS who was stilling cheating, pining after their AP, and/or actively resenting their BS spend a lot of time on SI trying to give advice.

You would be surprised.

I just want to reiterate that almost this entire conversation is a Wayward manipulation that is designed to distract you from the real issue, is an attempt to make you feel guilty for having boundaries, attempts to shift blame to others and away from the WS, and is also a form of gas-lighting. False logic is used to make points that actually have nothing to do with the real issue, and a constant effort is made to redirect you to a wayward train of thought and bolster the WS's fragile ego while questioning your own. Stop falling for it.

Statements such as "So a wayward can't offer an opinion if they didn't have a DDay?" or "So there is only one story?" are carefully crafted questions that have no legitimate answer. It's a trap. It is designed to make you, the authentic people, question your own position, and attempts to stop you in your tracks from asking the WS to own their behavior. If you say yes, then you're an asshole, if you say no, then you're a hypocrite. Gaslighting 101.

Other statements, such as "Shouldn't we celebrate the WS's positive progress?" robs the BS of their experience and pain, and attempts to gain sympathy and adoration for the WS, as if they were the victim here. Again, it is designed to remove focus from the WS and instead shift blame to others. It is an attempt to make you feel guilty for having healthy boundaries. You will be bombarded by words such as "fair" and "rights", but only in regard to the WS. Blame-shifting 101.

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Close your eyes and picture a pregnant woman. Inside that woman's belly is a baby. An unborn baby.

This baby has amazing potential. One day, it could cure cancer, or become a President, or bring about world peace, or perform on Broadway. It could learn to eat and walk, go to school, fall in love, get married, have kids and grandkids. The possibilities are endless.

BUT FIRST THE BABY HAS TO BE BORN

WS: "Now does that mean there is "only one acceptable story"? Why do babies have to be born? That is just you trying to control the situation, to get your own way, and make yourself feel powerful and feel better about yourself. So I guess unborn babies don't matter, right?"

Look, there is no "other story" for birth. It can be a C-section or natural birth, but there is no skipping birth. The baby cannot choose to stay in its mother's womb for the rest of its life and yet claim to be born. We can bitch and complain all we like about the fact that being born is a step that you can't skip, but it's no indicative of an "attitude problem", it is a fact of life. In the same way, you cannot skip past the part of the affair where the crime is exposed and dealt with. It's not an opinion, it's part of the process, and honestly, it's the most critical one. You cannot claim to be a former wayward or reconciled couple when the crime that defined you as a WS in the first place is still taking place. Reality 101

For the sake of argument, let's say that the baby decides to never leave the womb. The baby grows into an adult inside its mother's belly. The mother is stuck carrying the person in her stomach for the rest of her life. The pain it causes her, the extra weight she bears, the situation she did not sign up for... all these things are foisted upon or robbed from her. The baby lives in peace and calm and comfort while the mother continues to suffer every minute of every day. And yet we are being asked to bless and praise this.

WS: "So what if the baby stays inside the mother? Can we not celebrate its growth, its progress? Do those things not matter?"

No they don't matter. A full-grown adult is still in their mother's belly, are we expected to congratulate them for having 10 perfect fingers and toes? "Oh look, Mary's baby learned an Irish jig and is doing it in his mother's belly! Isn't that an accomplishment?" No. The mother is getting kicked in the ribs while the baby does whatever it wants. In the same way, we do not need to praise or even acknowledge a WS for "accomplishments" and "progress" which ignore, and fly in the face of, the suffering of their spouse. You are less angry these days? You are nicer to your BS? What the hell does that have to do with anything? How does it help the BS? How is that anything but an attention grab for the WS? It's evil. Misdirection 101 with a special focus on manipulation.

WS: "Ok, but you don't understand the situation, you don't know my life. The baby's father threatened to commit suicide if the baby is born. So by not being born, the baby is actually saving a life, and saving the family. Nothing good could possibly come from being born. This is the right decision for everyone"

No, it's PhD level manipulation and avoidance. The father is responsible for his own life, his own choices, and frankly, needs psychiatric help. NONE of this has anything to do with the baby or whether or not it should be born. It actually could prevent the father from getting the help he desperately needs, and again, leaves the mother stuck with a baby in her for life. You cannot continue to do the wrong things, continue to hurt people, and yet praise yourself and others for doing so, and claim it is "what is best for everyone." It's not. It is what is best for you. It is unfair of others (family, kids) to put your own choices on trial for their purposes. They are manipulating you the same way you are manipulating others. They are responsible for their own choices in life, not you. Doing the wrong thing is never the right thing.

Similar to what jaynelovesvera said, I am done banging a drum here. Stop being worked over by WS tricks and guilt. They are not the victims here. The description of the SI Wayward forum has this description of who this forum is for. "A forum for all Former WS's who have ended or trying to end their affairs and are striving to reconcile." People who have not disclosed their affair are doing neither. People who have done both, need to stop being made to feel guilty for doing the right thing.

let's say that the baby decides to never leave the womb. The baby grows into an adult inside its mother's belly. The mother is stuck carrying the person in her stomach for the rest of her life. The pain it causes her, the extra weight she bears, the situation she did not sign up for...

Wait!, I know this movie... directed by Roman Polanski, right?

Sundance, I seriously doubt that a WS who was stilling cheating, pining after their AP, and/or actively resenting their BS spend a lot of time on SI trying to give advice.

Sure. Why not.

Cheap 'confession.'

Sublimation, compensation, diversion, faux accountability.

'Confession' to a bunch of internet strangers while the wronged person continues on without an accounting and agency.

'Confession' and profession of redemption without the actual cost.

I seriously doubt that a WS who was stilling cheating, pining after their AP, and/or actively resenting their BS spend a lot of time on SI trying to give advice.

I wish I could say no one here had ever seen it happen, but there were a few famous cases of WS who talked the talk and built up trust, only to be exposed as still in the A or having started a new affair. Those are some of the most devastating posts on SI, because it's taking advantage not only of the BS, but an entire community of people who believed that WS was an example of how cheaters really can change.

We've also had BS spin tales of unusually definitive action who were eventually revealed to be trolls. There's always someone out there who's broken enough to need approval or attention in any way they can get it.