SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is a lot to live with. Masturbation should be a normal and healthy thing, so to live with someone who cannot do that without it becoming something horrendous is just a lot. It's got to feel like being married to a constant project instead of a person. I'm sorry you're going through this.

who cannot do that without it becoming something horrendous is just a lot. It's got to feel like being married to a constant project instead of a person.

For me it felt like being with a weirdo. Guess I'm not into porn fetishes

veryhurt2018

My SAWH has to call his sponsor every day,

I'm wondering who set this up. Is it the sponsor who said he has to do this daily, or was it a request that you made, and if so, how do you know if he follows through?

When my H was going back to work, where a lot of his acting out had taken place, he asked me what he could do to reassure me. I asked him to bookend his day with a sponsor or peer support (His sponsor is an AA sponsor since he doesn't have an SA sponsor - grrr.) For a few months I checked the phone log to see if he really did check in, and when he took to texting instead of calling I chastised him for it. But now I try not to check up and leave his recovery to him. Sometimes I'm more successful than others.

My SAL sponsor asked me to leave a daily surrender on her phone for the first two weeks when I started with her. Now it's just when I need to, but I do think that it got me into the mindset of looking for those things that I had to surrender. (We also have a weekly call). I imagine for the addict, if they actually work it, the daily message helps them be conscious of triggers or pre-triggers.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 4:27 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

Guess I'm not into porn fetishes

Or empathy, for the women reaching out on this forum, apparently.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 4:40 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

Or empathy, for the women reaching out on this forum, apparently.

I definitely have empathy for the women here. I was describing my own situation and how it felt to me. My Ex had some nasty fetishes that he picked up from porn and it made me feel icky and repulsed by him.

Gonna stay out of this forum, too triggery for me. Apologize if I offended anyone.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:26 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

NotMine,

Your husband's slips sound similar to mine. My DH's MO is fantasy/compulsive masturbation.

The only difference is your husband fessed up when questioned, and mine did not.

My husband even had three years of sobriety when he started slipping.

In my case, I didn't find out until 7 years after the first slip. So my boundaries no longer worked to life circumstances, mostly related to having more kids in that time and finances.

What I learned is that really didn't "do the work" the first time around, even though he was actually doing some work. IOW, he wasn't ready to recover. He wasn't ready to accept that he was an addict. He thought he was a "special" addict where rules didn't apply. He also didn't address his shame. I knew about the first issue in recovery v1, but I brushed it off, because his words and deeds largely did a 100% turn around. And DH was doing some work. Because of recoveryv1, it was the first time I felt emotionally connected to my husband, he doted on me and made me felt special and loved.

So. Yes. The first slips lead to a near full-blown relapse 7 years later. My husband has now been sober AND in recovery for 4 years now.

The problem is the marriage is not repaired, and I don't ever think it will be.

We are now in a situation where I'm very clear about what I need/want. And he sort of picks and chooses what he'll do. He's willing to step up and do whatever I need with regards to the kids while I'm on chemo. But that does not make me feel special and loved. It's just what he is supposed to do. Just like I don't expect he should feel loved because I do a good job of carrying out my job of being the primary wage earner in the family. It is what I am supposed to do.

He just doesn't understand that if I say I need oreo cookies twice a month, then that's what I mean. He'll get oreos once every couple of months and then say "But I got you oreos! And I was nice to you 100 other ways.

He's willing to stay with me despite the consequences of his choices. I'm unwilling to divorce because I've paid enough. So here we are.

Secondtime

What I learned is that really didn't "do the work" the first time around, even though he was actually doing some work. IOW, he wasn't ready to recover. He wasn't ready to accept that he was an addict. He thought he was a "special" addict where rules didn't apply. He also didn't address his shame. I knew about the first issue in recovery v1, but I brushed it off, because his words and deeds largely did a 100% turn around.

I could have written that exact paragraph about my (now separated) husband coming out of rehab for chemical dependency 16 years ago. As I now understand it, he merely substituted sex for chemicals, (until he relapsed on those too.) And it all happened under my nose and I didn't know about any of it until last year.

Hope the chemo is going OK.

[This message edited by BlackRaven at 9:44 PM, July 21st (Wednesday)]

My porn addicted spouse has been going to great lengths to hide his porn use. He most frequently uses porn while at work and while that is very disturbing, and it actually may happen multiple times daily for all that I know (I would not put it past him, unfortunately), I think that part of the reason he does this is because I am not around to police him and to accuse him. He is now paranoid that I have a tracker on his phone and is constantly changing his password. The reality is that he is not only lying to me, deceiving me, and doing this behind my back, despite him being well aware on my thoughts about the destructive force of porn use, but he is LYING TO HIMSELF. I just came to that realization today actually. He feels entitled to continue this behavior and to feed his addiction, all while hiding his true identity from me, from the the outside world, and from himself. Can anyone relate to this? Thoughts and feedback are appreciated, so thank you all in advance.

Doggiemommy:

all while hiding his true identity from me, from the the outside world, and from himself.

This aspect of some personalities is not limited to SA. I went through a period of thinking my WH was addicted to the SECRETS more than anything else (and I still believe that). Over time, I've read more about attachment, trauma, etc. IOW, there's the addiction and there may also be attachment issues. Personally, I find a lot of it to end up as a chicken vs egg situation - and it's still not a ME problem.

Of course, it ALL starts with the lies they tell themselves.

In any event, one thing that has helped me is some of Brene Brown's quotes.

Authenticity is a collection of choices that we have to make every day. It's about the choice to show up and be real. The choice to be honest. The choice to let our true selves be seen.

And another:

We cultivate love when we allow our most vulnerable and powerful selves to be deeply seen and known, and when we honor the spiritual connection that grows from that offering with trust, respect, kindness and affection.

And finally

Courage starts with showing up and letting ourselves be seen

In my mind, it's impossible to be in a healthy, loving, relationship with someone incapable of the authenticity of being SEEN, unable to cultivate the love by allowing themselves to be SEEN, and lacking the courage to allow themself to be SEEN.

It's taken me a LONG ass time, but today, I have zero interest in being in a relationship with someone who refuses to allow me to SEE them - to see their true selves, to see them deeply, and to see their courage.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts.

There's also the standard SI (or infidelity) fare of: what are YOUR boundaries about being in a M with an active wayward/addict? What consequences are you willing/able/resolute about imposing? IMHO, nothing changes until you set the boundaries for you (which is another way of saying you have to be willing to lose the M to save it... and saving it may still not be possible).

Personally, the only consequence that would make a damn bit of difference to my WH and his wayward behavior is D. And since dday, I've not really been in a position to D (or more aptly - the loss I would have incurred by D was more than I was willing to accept), hence the years' long, arduous, journey of lining up ducks. In the meantime, I learned to be pretty good at emotional detachment when it comes to him and our M. It's made MY day-to-day in this M much more tolerable as I continue to gather those often elusive ducks!

don't know if I'll ever date or have sex again - first off, most men suck in bed

I am still unfortunately legally married to wh so can't speak with experience to this topic, but I strongly expect this is not the case with men I have met since my wh took off with my truck (it's a country girl thing but I miss the truck).

I have a zoom training in a few minutes but may pop back in and type a little on this topic later.

I believe there are good men out there. I just need to get divorced to be able to fully enjoy them since adultery is out of the question for me....

don't know if I'll ever date or have sex again - first off, most men suck in bed

Ok. Not true! I am in IC to make sure I pick better people in the future, but as far as sex - no ma’am. Nope. There are men out there that are great in bed and fun and communicate and just - no, please don’t think this way. I had a healthy and fun dating and sex life before I settled down with what turned out to be a sex addict cheater.

Sex with my SA was never great (red flag!) but he had a lot of other good qualities and the sex wasn’t BAD then. Well as he got into his addiction the sex was bad. Having sex with a man that has watched porn compulsively is AWFUL. I was having to remind him all the time that it doesn’t have to be rough every single time and also sometimes we can slow down and enjoy it.

Ugh it makes me sad to think someone think that sex with a sex addict is reflective of what is out there. It isn’t. If you end up in the dating world again find a nice guy that communicates well and be open and honest in bed and enjoy the results

I am still unfortunately legally married to wh so can't speak with experience to this topic, but I strongly expect this is not the case with men I have met since my wh took off with my truck (it's a country girl thing but I miss the truck).

I have a zoom training in a few minutes but may pop back in and type a little on this topic later.

I believe there are good men out there. I just need to get divorced to be able to fully enjoy them since adultery is out of the question for me....

Boo about your truck. Those are mighty handy to have in the country.

I can speak with experience on this as I dated plenty before my XWH. There are so many good men out there. This SA stuff can become normalized in one's mind if you live in it, but it is exceedingly rare to wind up with a person like this and it is very much abnormal. It is not part of the average relationship. It is horrifying and appalling stuff. I would counsel anyone to not have "but all men ____" as any part of reason to stay with one of these men or cut themselves off in the future. No, no they don't. This is out there shit. This is not just part of what you deal with in a marriage. This is not a challenge to be anticipated and folded into a marriage. This is extreme dealbreaker territory. Extreme.

I upset people sometimes and I know it, but I cannot in good conscience ever advise anyone on how to make a marriage with a SA work. I would feel like a participant in their abuse. It's like making the best of living in a house with a thick layer of mold on all the ceilings. It will make you sick and it might kill you. Even if they work on recovery, you still have a marriage where you know that your spouse did this, has this in him and is likely to relapse and do it again. That's like living on a simmering volcano. It's not healthy for your heart and mind. I wish I had the words to express how huge it is to get out from under that black cloud and live in a saner world. It's such a relief and a quality of life improvement. Even if you wind up with way less money, the stress of a bill collector is nothing compared to the stress of living with a sex addict. There is no such stress that I've ever experienced that compares to it and I've been through some things. This was the absolute worst and I didn't even live with it long.

BlackRaven

I'm wondering who set this up. Is it the sponsor who said he has to do this daily, or was it a request that you made, and if so, how do you know if he follows through?

I had nothing to do with this, this is with his sponsor and him. I know he calls every day because his sponsor calls him out if he doesn't. He's missed about 3 calls in 3 years and it was because we were either on vacation and he was busy or we were boating. My SAWH has done really hard work to prove to me that he is a safe spouse now and he's gained a lot of trust back. Not all but a lot.

veryhurt2018

Sounds like he's got a gem of a sponsor. It's heartwarming that there are people out there who are so caring about others.

Wow! A lot to respond to here. Love to you Black Raven! I appreciate all of your support!

1. If it was a boundary for you, what was your stated consequence? Have you followed through on it? Dishonesty IS a boundary for me. As is suggested on this site, I am not making big decisions right now. I am watching actions. I AM asking for a poly and a post-nup. I have also asked him to schedule extra counseling sessions with his CSAT that I can attend. I am waiting to see what his actions tell me before I disrupt my life and that of my child, but I am fully prepared for a separation if necessary. It is summer and I have a fucking tent that he can use until he finds a place to live. He has (as far as I can tell) been honest in all other areas, including intentional interaction with other females. He has set some boundaries here and he seems to be able to maintain them. I monitor tech use closely, as well as his behavior, which is why I noticed that he was acting a bit “off”. I understand that I may not know it all, but to be honest, I spend more time focused on me and my daughter. I do not have time to continually chase his stupid bullshit. If something further comes up at the poly, he is out. Lawyer is working on the post-nup.

2. In my book, that's inappropriate contact with women, just as much as if he'd flirted with a waitress. I respectfully disagree with some of this. I DO agree that he is objectifying women. I do not agree that this is necessarily my definition of inappropriate contact with women in terms of my own situation. The dealbreaker for me is the action of reaching out for inappropriate contact with women (friendships, fishing, etc). He is working on re-creating his circles and will share them with me and his CSAT (see previous paragraph). My husband has been sober from drugs and alcohol for 25 years. Never had a relapse. He does have some successful understanding about triggers and the use of tools to maintain sobriety.

3. Next, I would want my husband and his CSAT to figure out what he was trying to escape from through the masturbation, and ask him to identify healthier coping mechanisms he could have used in each case. He is in process of doing this….working on FOO issues with his CSAT. Abandonment by his father (death) and mother is a biggie. My dad, who he has known for 30 years, is dying. This has been more of an issue for him than I realized. It is really hard, because not only do I have to deal with my father’s decline, I have to deal with my husband’s sick crap.

4. Are you seeing a betrayal trauma therapist? Did you have full therapeutic disclosure with polygraph previously? I have not been in IC recently, but I was for a while after DDay. I feel like I am ok, but am seriously thinking about returning to therapy, especially considering my dad’s situation. I did have therapeutic disclosure, but not a poly. I am a very good investigator and my husband is not tech savvy. He was compulsive masturbation, objectification of women paired with “fishing” and inappropriate flirting, and then one affair (that I know of). TBH, through therapy, (we had a kick-ass therapist (CSAT, well versed in betrayal trauma) who worked with both of us), I came to the conclusion that any further knowledge of cheating became less important than the journey forward. I have 23 years sober (alcoholic). I know that for any addict, living in shame is very dangerous. Guilt is ok, because it is about what you did rather than who you are. I felt like it was important that we leave the shame behind. Did not need to add a relapse of drugs and alcohol on top of the SA issues.

5. I'm not sure what your sponsor means by trust the intent. I knew I was going to get some interesting responses to that statement. This was not only from my sponsor, but from a podcast I am listening to about Infidelity. It made sense to me when I heard it. My thinking: Sex addiction is different from other addictions (except maybe for food addiction) as it is a necessary human behavior. A healthy sex life is important to us as humans. It is a necessary part of human relationships, IMO. Complete abstinence, (which is a non-negotiable for chemically dependent people or gambling addicts), is not possible for most SAs and it is why most SAs have slips unless they abstain from sex altogether. Each SA has to determine what sexual behaviors are healthy and which are not for them on an individual basis. In AA, we say that our disease is cunning, baffling and powerful. The inherent inconsistencies of trying to negotiate sexual sobriety while still engaging in sex is confusing and allows the disease to manipulate an addict’s thinking. For example, if you put me (an alcoholic) in a situation where I had to take a drink in order to maintain a healthy relationship, I would almost certainly relapse because every time I took a drink, the obsession and compulsion would take over my thinking. I know this is not a perfect analogy, but you get my drift. I do have some sympathy for SAs because of this immense challenge. Anyway, because of the high likelihood of relapse based on an SA's inability to abstain from their “drug of choice” completely, the thought is that the spouses of SAs should consider the intent of the SA. The intent MUST include the ACTIONS that they are taking consistently and over time to intervene in their addiction. If my husband was doing nothing to get better, or had stopped meetings or therapy, for example, his intention would be to continue to “use”. My husband has increased his meetings, gotten an SA sponsor in addition to his AA sponsor, is working the steps, is reading suggested literature, has agreed to all of my consequences, accepts full responsibility, increased his sessions with his CSAT in order to figure out his “whys”. This, to me, speaks to his intent. Therefore, it is worth it to me to wait and see…..

6.It's progress not perfection, but only you can decide if it's enough progress for you to feel safe, and/or what you need to do to feel safe for now while he sorts it out. Agreed.

7.I would think it was not all, and that he hasn’t admitted everything. Do they ever??? If you didn’t have masturbation as a deal breaker, then why did he hide it at all? Shame.

8.He needs to start doing the steps so that he can find what his triggers are and then he can watch for them. There are two workbooks that my SAWH uses with his CSAT that I think would be great for your SAWH. They are both by Patrick Carnes, so he may have them already. We have read Patrick Carnes and I have watched many interviews featuring him. Our first counselor was a student of his. As I said, my husband has 25 years sober in another 12-step program. He is busily re-working the steps :).

9.My SAWH has to call his sponsor every day, and if he can’t call, then he has to text him. My husband is doing this as well. In addition, he meets with him each week. His sponsor is someone I know and love. I know he will work him hard.

10.Slips are very common in sex addiction which totally sucks. And the worst part is that if they have a slip and they aren’t honest about it, then it just continues to get worse and could lead to a full relapse. YUP. Marriage to an SA is not something I would EVER recommend. Sadly, like many of you, I find myself married to one. I am immensely grateful that I have experience with sobriety and with addiction.

I am not sure what I will end up doing, but for now I am watching and waiting. The bottom line is that I will not let my husband’s crap impact my daughter (who is disabled) unless I feel that it is absolutely necessary. Right now, he seems to be doing all of the things I would tell any one of my own sponsees to do who relapsed. Only time will tell.

Notmine,

My husband slipped because he didn't know how to deal with his feelings and he didn't do proper recovery work.

I also personally don't buy that sex is a necessary human behavior.

If DH and I separate, we're not having sex. I'm not interested in partnering up someone else ever again. I'm too old to hook up with others and paying for sex is a hard no. I'm pretty confident that I'll manage. But, maybe the difference is I'm not interested in being in a relationship ever again.

I was also warned that while I was on chemo, I wouldn't have a sex drive. That's no reason for my husband to slip.

My dad had stage 4 prostate cancer. The aggressive kind no one talks about. In order to save his life, he had to be given lupron, which brought his testosterone down to 0 and completely took away his drive. My mom didn't go out and cheat on him in the last decade of his life. I heard about their wedding night, so I'm sure I would have heard by now if she stepped out of the marriage.

[This message edited by secondtime at 5:50 PM, July 22nd (Thursday)]

Hello Secondtime- My thinking/opinion, as I said in the post. I would opine that most people consider sex a necessary part of a loving relationship. My opinion. Many more masturbate, which is also sexual behavior. Maybe I should have said "normal" instead of "necessary", but that would get me into trouble too. I was making a generalization, which I know are inherently unfair, but there it is. I was not talking about situations where someone is ill or singles who choose not to engage in sex.

My husband slipped because he didn't know how to deal with his feelings and he didn't do proper recovery work. I was also warned that while I was on chemo, I wouldn't have a sex drive. That's no reason for my husband to slip.

I was also not, in ANY way, giving any cheater an excuse. There are none. Period.

Can I vent? I am going to vent. My XSO has told his CSAT (that did some couples sessions for us) that he was worried I would break up with him. I kicked him out and broke up with him 7/6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The therapist texted me on Friday (WHILE I WAS ON VACATION WITH MY SONS) to say “WSO is very distraught. I think he will be able to calm down if he knows if you are just wanting space, want to reconcile, or don’t know what you want yet”. What the actual fuck? I texted him back that we broke up 7/6, that I had a trigger that turned into a full on panic attack with me dry heaving and shaking uncontrollably and he stood over me screaming “you are so fucked up”.

If his therapist contacts me again I am going to tell him to fuck off.

I cannot believe the alternate reality XSO lives in. I had not been ignoring his calls and texts but now I am. He tried to FaceTime me Saturday. Nope. He was texting me in the middle of the night that he can’t sleep and he is so upset. Then he sent me a long email saying he knows now what he should have done and he wants to help and support me. I sent him back a short message that I gave him 6 months after dday and he only caused me more pain and trauma and that there are no more chances.

His messages are so fucking victim like. He is so sad he ruined things. He can’t believe he was so stupid to lose me. Excuse me??????? Excuse me? He FUCKED other people. Repeatedly. And paid to do so.

I don’t even know why I am sharing this I just am – flabbergasted. And annoyed.

ETA: when I was accepting his calls before I was NEVER telling him there was another chance and when he would suggest that I would say "We tried it didn't work".

[This message edited by stubbornft at 10:07 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

I swear they are so much the same. I'm sitting here laughing but not because it's funny. It's just nuts.

I packed up my stuff in his face for a month, Worked with my realtor to find a house in his face, bought a house, had family and friends come over to help me load the UHaul while he was watching, and moved to another town. I hid nothing, spoke no words that could be misconstrued. I was a very direct asshole for that month. It was all very out in the open that I was fucking done and leaving forever. ZERO ambiguity. Even had separation papers signed to ensure he had no claim on my new house.

He handled that month with some fair amount of stoicism.

About a week after I left, total breakdown, suicide threats, couldn't believe I was serious.

WTF. Yeah, I know what you're feeling right now. It's so stupid.

In his mind, I'm sure he is the victim. Poor little guy. Mine was outraged that I would ignore our vows "in sickness and in health" because poor boo was sick and that's why he had to fuck prostitutes. It wasn't his fault, so why was I being so mean? No contact will save your sanity, I swear it.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 10:36 AM, July 27th (Tuesday)]

UGH yes I am getting "I have no reason to go on now, I have no reason to get better and work on myself if I don't have you". GAG! I mean so much now but he was paying for sex 6 months ago!!!! It is just mind boggling.

I had been telling him for at least a month "I don't see the point anymore, I don't understand what we are doing anymore".

He will have a girlfriend within a few weeks that will be the love of his life.

Even though I still have hard days I do not want him back. Why on earth would I want to start that whole cycle all over again? I can't imagine doing all the shit he did and then blowing your chance to reconcile and then being devastated that it is over. Oh yeah, he wanted his mommywife to fix it for him

We THANKFULLY were not married. He kept pressing me to get married but I just couldn't get rid of the gut feeling that it was wrong.