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I was curious if others had wayward spouses as egotistical as mine.

My XWH is NPD (narcissistic personality disorder). He didn't think very deeply about what he was doing to others, and whether is was an affair up or down. He felt entitled to his A and didn't think he'd get caught. My XWH is arrogant, treats people as objects to be manipulated for his end purposes.

There's no way that I would be able to change his mind about the affair up/down issue. Even Dr. Phil said that working with NPDs is above his pay grade.

I'm sorry that you're dealing with this. It would frustrate me but I don't have to deal with XWH any longer. Yay!

However, is a WS able to turn that around and see that their former AP also affaired down, that they are also quite a step down from the OBS?

I don't think my WS thinks his AP affaired down at the time. In fact, that was half the draw - she saw him as superior to her husband in every way - thus she was a constant ego stroke - and he thought she was lucky to have his attention.

Over time he did begin to see that he was not half the man he thought he was - he simply found someone who would use the same broken measuring stick he was using (money, looks and charm). I think he figures he and his AP were equally dysfunctional liars who used others.

As for the OBS... there is guilt and shame. And a solid belief that that man should have come looking to kick his ass.

i’m sorry i didn’t mean to be catty about it either.

the OP did say that one needn’t look farther than the posts above to see examples of a BS blaming the AP more than WS….

I don’t blame her more. I blame her differently. I believe initiation of the affair, termination of the affair and remorse for the affair weigh on the matter of culpability.

I was trying to answer the original question by saying my WS knows he was by definition a worse human being because he was behaving in an inhumane manner by cheating and hurting others whereas the OBS was a decent human being and faithful to his spouse.

I sympathize with the OP that it is upsetting for your WS to not acknowledge this. My WS did not come to this realization immediately. It took time even though it should have been glaringly obvious.

the OP did say that one needn’t look farther than the posts above to see examples of a BS blaming the AP more than WS….

Just for clarity, that was me, not OP.

I don’t blame her more. I blame her differently. I believe initiation of the affair, termination of the affair and remorse for the affair weigh on the matter of culpability.

I get what you’re saying.

My H had two strictly PAs before his last A. He told AP3 that he wanted a NSA FWB A with her, and she agreed. And then she went to work on him with her poaching techniques. She grilled him on what was lacking in our marriage, what he wanted, his ideal woman, etc, and then she became that. She even dyed her hair red for him (which he said he found very creepy.)

He initiated it. She manipulated him. He almost left me for her. And then he ended it, pulled his head out of his ass, "did the work", and became trustworthy.

She never said one word to me. If my assumptions are correct about the motivation for her pins on Pinterest, she still pines for him, even though she married five years later and is still married. He grew. She didn’t. She’s the worse offender now because she’s still my enemy. She’s not a dormant bad memory. She remains an active enemy who would probably jump at the chance for another go at him.

I had a bit of a lightbulb moment while typing that as to why it’s hard for me to stop creeping on her. It’s because I know she’s still lurking out there. I wish I didn’t know. My life would be more peaceful. Someone will come along and say that it doesn’t matter how she feels or what she does, that it matters what H does, and they’re correct. But just knowing that she’s still carrying a torch is unsettling.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:51 AM, Tuesday, May 7th]

i’m sorry i didn’t mean to be catty about it either.

the OP did say that one needn’t look farther than the posts above to see examples of a BS blaming the AP more than WS….

You were very hurtful while I was only trying to get the thread I started back on the track I needed. Not only did I not say that, as a BS, one should be aware that apologies followed by justifications aren't apologies.

I'm leaving this thread open because others have gotten good things out of it. I'm happy it has helped some.

Sorry for the T/J

Sacred soul, how long ago was ap 3? Have you ever considered that she has had other married Since then and that could be her Pinterest??? Pins might be to do with that? Even if she is lurking, if your husband is trustworthy, let her suffer over it. If she wants to waste such a big portion of her life on a dead end she is getting her just desserts.

Not being judgmental, just chiming in that you should set yourself free.

(Also the question marks about the Pinterest board - I don’t get that. It’s not really the type of social media I would think would be effective to communicate with a man. Does your husband have a Pinterest board?)

End t/j

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:10 PM, Tuesday, May 7th]

I think it's important for a BS considering R to realize and accept that since they always affair down, the ap did, in fact, affair down with the person with whom the BS is considering R. IMO, a BS in R doesn't have a WS who is better than the ap. My W's ap affaired down with my W. In at least some ways, the ap is better than my W.

IMO and OTOH, the healthier one is emotionally, the less one thinks in terms of better or worse people. We're all people, with our own mix of strengths and weaknesses. We are all very heavily influenced by forces over which we have no control - our genes and our upbringing.

I believe it's crucially important for BSes to take in that their WSes are deeply flawed and in desperate need of changing themselves. To as great an extent possible, the BS needs to perceive the WS as the WS really is. And that includes knowing that the ap affaired down with the WS.

I also believe the WS's healing requires seeing themself as deeply flawed and ready to change from cheater to good partner. I'm not sure that requires the WS to realize the ap affaired down with the WS, but that probably helps.

I want my W to keep asking herself, 'What's the next right thing I can do now?' If she does right things, she's not going to be comparing herself to anyone. I'd much rather have her doing the next right thing than telling herself her ap affaired down with her.

Bottom line, I strongly believe the BS needs to understand the WS affaired down. My guess is that a WS can heal without realizing it.

Bottom line, I strongly believe the BS needs to understand the WS affaired down. My guess is that a WS can heal without realizing it.

I would agree mostly. I think gaining some humility and understanding over that can be important for growth for the ws, rather than healing. I think it’s important for the ws to see they had built someone up that isn’t as good as their bs, but that in itself is low lying fruit in the scheme of things the ws needs to get to become a safe partner.

Sacred soul, how long ago was ap 3? Have you ever considered that she has had other married men. Since then and her Pinterest??? Pins might be to do with that?

(Also the question marks about the Pinterest board - I don’t get that. It’s not really the type of social media I would think would be effective to communicate with a man. Does your husband have a Pinterest board?)

Man, this feels so shameful to say, like I'm being a bad example for new BSs, but it's been 20 years since DDay. I was largely past everything and life had settled down. I had just deleted my archived "evidence" where I would pain shop every so often and my marriage was really good... and then I found her Pinterest about 7-8 years ago and [insert bomb emoji here]. She was all back up in my head again. She still works where my H works, though no longer at the same location, so there's still intermittent but minimal contact, like company parties and business calls/meetings a couple of times a year.

AP married about five years after DDay. She's still with her H. He was with her at the last company party a year ago. The angst in the lead up to that party is mostly what brought me back to SI after all these years. It was compounded by insecurity about weight gain and pandemic anxiety.

My guess is that maybe she doesn't realize that her Pinterest is completely public. If I were in her shoes, I'd be worried about my H finding it. I'm guessing that neither of them are very savvy about SM. Or maybe she put it out there as a jab at me and I took her bait. Or maybe she's hoping that my H will google her name and it will pop up and he'll be intrigued. The latter is my guess. She's never given me the time of day. I'm just in the way.

There are lots of good reasons to think that the pins are about my H. Maybe it's my ego talking, but my gut says I'm right. The pins say things like:

"You and I will always be unfinished business."

"I really do miss what we almost had."

"I just feel like I'll never get over you."

Literally 950+ memes in that vein, most of them already there when I found her Pinterest, but some added within the last couple of years. It's possible that it's about someone else, but I really don't think so. She carried a torch for a long while after the A ended.

Turns out, this really isn't too much of a T/J because I know that being with him would have been a gamechanger for her. He was on the rise at work, he was handsome, he was romantic and very generous in bed... Getting with him would have upped her station and improved HER life, though it would have been a big downgrade for him. And she didn't have a BS at the time. I don't blame her for missing him. For her, he was a catch, even if he was dysfunctional AF, a liar, and a cheat.

Even if she is lurking, if your husband is trustworthy, let her suffer over it. If she wants to waste such a big portion of her life on a dead end she is getting her just desserts.

Intellectually, I agree with you. I fully believe that my H is trustworthy and he says she's repellent, but man, it's tough to know that there's someone out there who almost got him and who (probably) still wants him, to the point that she would risk her own marriage by posting that crap publicly for all to see.

My job is to get to the point where I don't creep on her, but I don't know how to make myself do that yet. I do realize that the trauma is deep seated and that I make it worse by continuing to creep on her. I've done IC, but it was ineffective. I need someone who knows what they're doing.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:41 PM, Tuesday, May 7th]

I get it, sacred. I get that because she works with him this keeps that fire stoked. That is probably the aggravating factor that won’t let it fully rest. Twenty years is a long time for her not to have found more people to pine over though.

My theory is you have to find a commitment bigger than yourself. Mine is spirituality. I know the more joy I rob myself of the less doors I notice to open for other opportunities of joy. In essence my spiritual path is blocked by holding onto the past. Worrying and other activities that use and exhaust my creative efforts is misplaced when that energy can be listening for "instructions". I know that is vague, but you get it because I know you picked up "the power of now"

With that said, the fact she is still present would make anyone have a hard time. If he hasn’t chosen her in 20 years, he never will. And if he does, good riddance.

I don’t know what else to say because I understand that intellectually you can know something and not be able to internalize it emotionally. Godspeed, girl.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:04 PM, Tuesday, May 7th]

Thank you, hikingout. I appreciate the compassion and validation.

Twenty years is a long time for her not to have found more people to pine over though.

One would think, but I did the same sort of thing about a high school boyfriend until I saw him in person at our 20th reunion and got a face full of the reality of him and got over it completely. I suspect that she's in the same sort of headspace. "What if", the one that got away, unrequited lurv. Maybe my experience is tainting my discernment, but maybe it's the whole reason that I can see it in her.

My theory is you have to find a commitment bigger than yourself.

I'm working on that as we speak. My BFF and I are in the infancy of a heart project that we hope will free us from our boring corporate jobs and be fun as hell. My H and I are downsizing and about to build our heart house. Our emotional connection and understanding of each other is stronger than ever, and we're clicking along like never before. I'm taking semaglutide to get rid of the extra pounds I've carried my entire adulthood - and it's working. It's an exciting time for big changes in my life.

Worrying and other activities that use and exhaust my creative efforts is misplaced when that energy can be listening for "instructions". I know that is vague, but you get it because I know you picked up "the power of now"

I need to get back to that. I got my feet problems fixed so that I can walk for exercise again, so I think I'll get out there and listen while I walk. Thank you for the reminder. (On a related note, I'm working on my ADHD too. Waiting on a call from the doc about that as I type. lol) And I've been considering going back to the UU church that I used to love.

I don't worry about the AP, per se. She's just... out there. Lurking. Likely thinking that my H loved her - because he said he did, and that it just wasn't meant to be. Like they're some star-crossed lovers instead of emotional dipshits who used each other. Anyway. I'll get there.

Godspeed, girl.

Thank you, my friend.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 7:30 PM, Tuesday, May 7th]

One last note and then back to Sadie-

ADHD has a close correlation to the unrequited love thing. Look into that research. I think you will never know whether you are projecting or right about where she is with things. I do agree that many ws, especially those who are Lerner have a long history of holding on to past connections and obsessing over unrequited love or even love addiction.

I am glad you are working on you, and I hope you can work her out of your mental space that she doesn’t deserve to have. Energy is so precious.

Lastly, I have a history with unrequited love, limerance, obsession, etc. the ap told me he loved me too…I can see that’s not true. I can also see how people with those issues just distract themselves with more people who they can have that with. It’s maybe not helpful to focus on something that is giving you the room to create false narratives that makes life worse for you.

I know I am preaching to the choir but just some thoughts. Hope they are helpful!

ADHD has a close correlation to the unrequited love thing. Look into that research. I think you will never know whether you are projecting or right about where she is with things.

There's no way for me to know, really, unless she acts on it and confirms my suspicions. I doubt that she will, like you said, since she hasn't yet in all these years. I'll do some Googling.

It’s maybe not helpful to focus on something that is giving you the room to create false narratives that makes life worse for you.

It's futile. Pointless. All it does is keep old pain in the forefront.

Energy is so precious.

Amen. Another topic that I understand and agree with intellectually but struggle with affecting change.

Sorry, Sadie. Back to your regularly scheduled programming!

So when the AP is single and no prospects and is used by toxic men is the WS affairing down? 🤔

I beg to differ.

Without him being a lying POS he looks great, is established and has the material goods.

If they are single without prospects then AP’s affair up.

The Pinterest board….Straight out of the AP playbook version whatever.

The "technicolor way it never was" of their "romance". Both of them have been through multiple perfect Pinterest lovers by now several years later. Mind you this was the woman who was calling herself by my then husband’s last name and planning their wedding on that board. My now favorite pin of her’s was "find a man who prays with you" with a woman in a wedding dress. It was very painful for me to see at the time. Now I just look back and realize she just spelled it wrong. Should have been an e.

I do appreciate the former waywards who work on themselves and show up in this group as sources of hope and encouragement.

If they are single without prospects then AP’s affair up.

I half agree, and half think that getting tangled up with a dysfunctional liar is still affairing down.

Now I just look back and realize she just spelled it wrong. Should have been an e.

It’s all so cringe! 😬 I would never let someone see me doodling that kind of 7th grade nonsense in my Trapper Keeper. 😆

If they are single without prospects then AP’s affair up.

Well, not really.

A majority ws never leave their spouse for the AP. They are the cake eaters. So all the Ap often gets is an emotionally unavailable person who is going to bring them a lot of pain and misery.

If they do leave their spouse, the AP is going to receive a lot of baggage. Examples: They now have a contentious relationship with just about every single person in the ws’s life, which may include kids they have to coparenting with a obs that hates them, adult kids that resent the relationship, even the ws’s parents, siblings, and friends will often want to reject them or shun them at first.

They just got an unfaithful, liar for a spouse with likely diminished financial resources.

The ws will end up grieving their old life at some point that always hits even if they choose to stay with the AP.

Since 90 percent of affairs start in the workplace I have seen AP’s have to leave their jobs because they can’t be a subordinate to their romantic interest. Work gossip will be rampant, it will likely impact their ability for promotions.

Not to say they don’t deserve all that and more, but I think that nothing good ever comes from an affair. Not ever. And not even if you didn’t have a spouse to cheat on. Not to mention the karma of poaching someone else’s spouse when you could have dated someone with out any of these issues.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:48 PM, Wednesday, May 8th]

My perspective and opinions have changed from the 23 year old Male BS to the 60 year old. My wife and I were young when married. Her AP was 8 to 10 years older. I was wrecked when she confessed the affair to me. Then I would have said she affaired up. He was a white collar professional. I was a blue collar worker. He was much taller and athletic than I. He drove a sports car, me, a truck. This wrecked my self esteem. We both rugswept the issue. She remained working with him until our 2nd child was born.

I was very work oriented and doubled down on that. Excelling in the workplace was my safeplace. Fast forward a few decades and a major trigger put me back to the very beginning. This time I sought help from a professional therapist with betrayal trauma experience. She helped me reframe my thoughts and negative opinions of myself.

I now see that my wife really affaired down. Tidbits of info I picked up along the way helped. He was divorced a couple of times. Charged with stalking. Lost his job because of that. He really was a POS. I never met his wife but saw her in town. They moved a couple of towns away and I don't know what ever happened to her. I now wish I informed her of what was going on,however, I was frozen, unable to act. I think she was a nice person, so the POS also affaired down. I'm just getting to this conclusion after three decades of feeling quite bad about myself.

As for my wife, we are still together with a strong family. She has a lot of shame, and she knows she affaired down. She wants to forget that it ever happened. You all know that is impossible for a betrayed spouse.No one else knows of the affair but her, I and the AP. Unless of course he talked/bragged. This was always a big worry of mine.

I do not use the affair up or down term. It’s confusing me.

My husband picked the OW over me on D-day. That is he left me for her.

Later in time, he left her to return to me for reasons I will not go into here. So, did he affair down?

On the day he went to collect his last things from her house, I went with him and I met her one more time in person.
I told her I never want to see her face again to which she replied’ I can do anything I want. ´

Does that sound like an OW who affaired down?