SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

For me, acceptance was my immediate focus and ended up coming first. Acceptance, for me, had to do with understanding the A - what it involved, why he did it, what that said about him, what that said about our relationship, understanding and rewriting my own relationship and marital history, and considering all the ways our relationship would forever be changed. It was about seeing my husband, his A, and our relationship for what it really was – in other words, accepting the reality of the situation, understanding that neither of us could change it (it would always be part of our history), and understanding that the only (positive) way forward was to learn and grow from the experience.

Same. My path wasn’t in fact a structured plan, I went with the flow but constantly knowing that I am chasing something, something I couldn’t define, something I could only recognise when it happened naturally: ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance was absolutely essential for our reconciliation, acceptance that it did happen, acceptance that no matter how much I can wish it away, it is not going anywhere, acceptance that my WH was a flawed person and not the man I had on the pedestal prior to it, acceptance that it will be part of US forever, acceptance that we can rebuild and be a happy, balanced couple even with this history behind us.

If we define forgiveness as letting go of the desire to see WH punished (by me or by Karma) then forgiveness happened organically, he earned it by the amount of work he’s put into our relationship since dday and by showing up when I needed him each time.

I never consciously forgave them, I never uttered the words, he never asked for it. I don’t hold the affair against him, we have a pretty equal, more balanced marriage than we had before dday.

I never consciously forgave them, I never uttered the words, he never asked for it. I don’t hold the affair against him, we have a pretty equal, more balanced marriage than we had before dday.

Same, same here.

I feel kind of bad, like we are burying HF in her own thread while she deals with health issues. She’s a big girl tho, she’ll forgive us

I absolutely identify with at least the aspect of giving up a demand for punishment as part of forgiveness. I’ve never thought of it as somehow blessing the wrong in the past, so the phrase "it’s ok" would never work for me.

I’ve been thinking about this a lot, and it got me asking myself what do I implicitly mean when I ask someone for forgiveness? I know that what I’m hoping to avoid is the person I care about resenting me, or worst case severing relationship with me if it’s a severe enough wrong. To me, if the person I have wronged would say "I demand no further repayment, I will not resent you, and I will stay in relationship with you" I would feel fully forgiven. An interesting thing as I’ve thought about this is most wrongs we apologize for don’t rise up to the point of truly breaking relationship. Like there is a strength and toughness to a relationship, and those go up with time and intimacy. I would apologize to my wife for forgetting to pick up the dry cleaning, but I wouldn’t think it would break relationship. So I’ll I’m really asking is that she not resent me and we continue on. But when the weight of the offense exceeds the strength of the relationship, now it almost seems like we aren’t even talking about forgiveness anymore, it’s a minor point now, now the question is will the relationship survive at all. Resentment is now a smaller problem. So now after a huge offense, the question is "will you reconcile with me?", and then we’ll deal with the forgiveness and resentment later. And if that is true, then reconciliation seems to be forgiveness on steroids.

Those are entirely new thoughts to me, very stream of consciousness, I hope they make some sense. Thanks for starting a great thread, HF, hoping and praying you can join back up with us soon.

One thing I’ve learned about forgiveness is that it is possible to not forgive someone who is already dead.

Who is being punished then?

This thread seems to be populated by members who are in R, but since it is in general, I'll chime in as a BH who eventually chose to D after 6 months.

The issue of forgiveness is a sticky one for me. As IC posted, there is a common definition for forgiveness that they have issue with:

Exoneration

is wiping the slate entirely clean and restoring a relationship to the full state of innocence

it had before the harmful actions took place.

Early on, I really struggled with this definition, especially as a person of faith. There were people around me that would quote chapter and verse concerning the issue of forgiveness, but there experience has been largely hypothetical, like childless people who give parenting advice, or worse, use their experience with their pets and extrapolate from there.

At first, I wanted to punish my WW, and being in that place, I knew forgiveness was impossible. Then I read the book "How Can I Forgive You" mentioned earlier. Traditionally, forgiveness was presented to me as a binary option. You either forgive and get healthy, or you harbour resentment and it poisons you. Having the third option of acceptance was liberating for me. This, coupled with reading "Cheating in a Nutshell" helped me understand that the feelings I was experiencing were completely normal and actually hardwired into my primitive brain. Because of this, I no longer felt less-than, like some outlier who just can't get with the program.

Just after I announced that I was D my WW, she responded that she always knew infidelity was a deal-breaker for me, and I guess she was right. Although I probably could have worked through the A had I been with a truly repentant and remorseful partner who dug deep and did the work, I wasn't as fortunate as others here. My Ww was and continues to be very shallow.

I also recognized that even if we stayed together, I would never love her like a wife ought to be loved by her husband. I liken it to my buddy's Tesla. No matter how careful he has been, his battery can only hold 80% of its original charge. So now 80% is his new 100%, and he just has to adjust. I also realized that I would never again have the same passion for her, no matter what. I could regain sexual attraction for her one day (I never did), but never that rip off her clothes and take in the kitchen passion. My 100% would never be 100%, so I chose to D.

Does any of this mean I have not forgiven her? I don't know. I can be civil with here, but I try to avoid interactions, not because I'm bitter, but mostly because she sucks as a human being, so I don't waste time. I don't harbour resentment, though I still get angry at times, but that is very rare. I don't wish her ill, as I don't see difficulties in her life as payment for the terrible things she did. Her getting sick doesn't make me feel better. Frankly, I just don't give a shit one way or another. It's like overhearing coworkers discussing a plot-point in a show I don't follow. It just sort of washes over me.

I no longer try to compete with her as the better parent either, though if I am honest, I didcearly on. Now I just want to be a decent dad. The payoff has been that both my kids have chosen to live with me full-time. This makes me a little sad for her, but she has recently made an effort to spend more time with them, so that's good.

So I guess my version of whatever forgiveness looks like is a type of mild indifference peppered with occasional bouts of irritation. I don't wish my EXWW harm, nor do I wish her good. When I see difficulties in her life, many of which are a direct or indirect result of her A, I don't gloat, but perceive them as the natural consequences of her choices, like the sum or difference of a mathematical equation. It just is what it is.

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 6:02 PM, Saturday, November 18th]

It occurred to me the past couple of days that maybe I have forgiven my W for some of this. My WW's PA was a stranger from a bar, ONS turned 2 month PA. On Dday she went NC with him, he asked for my contact and sent me an apology, assured me he would never contact her again, he was a D BH. He exited the A without drama and with an apology. Her Bff, I call her CD (C** Dumpster) was a recently D (serial cheater) and was the affair cheerleader for my WW. My W went NC with her but before, I reached out to her and ask "how could you?" Crickets, nothing not an apology or anything. They haven't spoken in 4 years.

A couple of days ago a mutual friend (doesn't know) asked my W what is going on with CD? She is in a terrible place financially and needs emergency help. My W called and told me and I felt this rage!! Good!! She deserves it!!! Fuck her!! It reminded me that I don't have the same rage for my W or the AP, this was unprocessed rage and anger.

So ask me what is the difference, maybe forgiveness? Both AP and W has asked for it, CD never did. Any way I see that I need to drop that rage, for myself, I hate that I had that response but its also well deserved. Thought I'd share.

Maybe I’ll ask you, HF, how would your life have looked different if you had forgiven vs not?

It wouldn't have looked any different. He didn't cheat again because there were certain things I didn't forgive.

Instead of picking through this thread, I'm going to respond here.

Forgiveness is defined by however YOU want to define it. It's a very personal thing.

I really resent that anyone here feels they can tell another BS that if they don't forgive, that equates to resenting your spouse, holding a grudge,baggage, needing to feel as if I'm better than him,etc,etc. Maybe that is how it would be for YOU, but certainly not for me..or many others who have posted on this thread.

It is possible to not forgive..but be able to let it go, toss it into the pile of bullshit,and move on.

I really REALLY think it's bullshit when a ws says a bs MUST forgive. The audacity! How dare they say that,when they have zero idea what it is to be a BS. I feel sorry for any BS who has a ws who feels they must be forgiven.

I DO understand a ws wanting to be forgiven. And I do understand a ws not wanting to stay in a marriage with a BS who can't forgive. But no ws has the right to expect Forgiveness.

I didn't forgive everything. I accepted it. I forgave some. It took about 4 years to heal. In the last 10 years since dday, the affair was a distant memory. We were happy. I didn't feel like I was a princess,and he was a lowly servant. He was my husband. Not former ws. My HUSBAND. Any issues we had,which were few, weren't affair related. Sure,OW popped up acting crazy sometimes, but we just laughed at her. And moved on. The affair has no more power over me..or over us. It happened. Meh.

Again..maybe,for some of you, you would carry resentment,and harbor anger. But you are not me. So,please don't assume. I'm very black and white, I suppose. I'm blunt. I'm painfully honest sometimes. Don't assume I am lying,or don't know what I'm speaking about when it comes to MY feelings.

And..to any new BS here. Don't feel you need to forgive. I see so many here,usually within a few months of dday, struggling to forgive. Stop. Heal first. If Forgiveness happens,let it happen naturally. Don't push it. If it is important to you,it will eventually happen. And if it doesn't, that's ok. Do what is best for you. Don't allow anyone..especially a ws..tell you it's necessary. Because it's really not.

HF, you should write a book on infidelity with all your hard-earned wisdom. You deserve millions for all the bullshit you’ve been thru.

HellFire SacredSoul33 et al.. I'm in complete agreement with the premise that forgiveness is not a prerequisite for reconciliation and that there are often some acts and aspects of the betrayal that are so heinous, cruel or willfully destructive that they defy almost anybody's ability to offer forgiveness for their commission. My WW finally understands the depth of pain and despair she caused me from her LTA, the resulting child she bore and her paternity fraud campaign and the deceit, lies and dissembling which lasted for a half century, until as an old woman she confessed everything, or I assume everything.
Every day I struggle to come closer to forgiveness, however it is a more monumental task than I ever envisaged when I decided to answer her question if I was going to divorce her, by telling her that I don't know, and have since told her no, I will stay and try to reconcile. Grace is a spiritual gift, but even Saints would be hard pressed IMHO to achieve a place of.total forgiveness under these circumstances.

It wouldn't have looked any different. He didn't cheat again because there were certain things I didn't forgive.

I want to make it super clear that I was not implying that he cheated again because you didn’t forgive. I can see how one could interpret my words that way, I apologize for the lack of clarity, and I just want to clear the record. My question was intended to be much bigger picture, not the immediate crisis.

Forgiveness is often placed at the feet of the BS by many parties after betrayal. Religion, society, WS, friends, family, even the BS themselves will often put this on a list of things needed in order to be 'whole'.

Thank you for the post reminding us that it is not required for reconciliation. I would move that it a BS wants to forgive (or commit to the process of forgiveness) it should be low on the 'to do' list. Let it go until you are safe and on your way to being healed.

Only one thing troubles me about this thread and it isn't what anyone has done or not done with their WS. Instead, it's the idea that forgiveness is defined uniquely by each of us. I am not saying that we don't individually define all sorts of words and concepts but if we have a discussion where the central word is defined somewhat arbitrarily and certainly differently then we are not optimizing the outcome and understanding.

I think a central, agreeable definition is critical to sharing our opinions on a topic. So, here are a few definitions for forgiveness:

Hellfire's personal definition from her first post: forgiving means letting go,and saying it's ok.

The APA's definition: Forgiveness is not merely accepting what happened or ceasing to be angry. Rather, it involves a voluntary transformation of your feelings, attitudes, and behavior, so that you are no longer dominated by resentment and can express compassion, generosity, or the like toward the person who wronged you.

Biblical: 1) the Greek word translated "forgiveness" literally means "to let go", as when a person does not demand payment for a debt.

2) By contrast, forgiveness applies to major offences that require discussion in order for a resolution to occur. It does not mean forgetting or excusing egregious acts. It does not insist that reconciliation be immediate or return to its previous form. It does not remove any legal consequences that may apply. However, it does cost us deeply because through it we choose to lay down our right to have our offender owe us. It asks us to extend love and kindness even when it’s undeserved, to trust God to avenge our situation instead of ourselves, and to use life’s conflicts as opportunities to display God’s character

In the definitions I saw when posting this I didn't really see any that said to forgive also means saying it was ok that you did that. None. I only looked at 4 or 5 but still, that does not seem to be in many definitions. And I think that is the key for me.

HF - maybe I missed it but I feel like everyone has made a clear point that they were talking about themselves and what forgiveness meant to THEM. I truly didn't see anyone preaching to others. Maybe I'm misreading your post but you said you felt resentful of some folks definitions/thoughts.

Only one thing troubles me about this thread and it isn't what anyone has done or not done with their WS. Instead, it's the idea that forgiveness is defined uniquely by each of us. I am not saying that we don't individually define all sorts of words and concepts but if we have a discussion where the central word is defined somewhat arbitrarily and certainly differently then we are not optimizing the outcome and understanding.

I think a central, agreeable definition is critical to sharing our opinions on a topic. So, here are a few definitions for forgiveness:

In Hellfire’s OP she said:

Forgiveness is a very personal thing. And,it means different things to every individual.

I agree with HellFire and think that’s an important component of forgiveness. What does it mean to each of us and our relationship. Also, in researching the topic, I have found many different credible definitions. Who exactly is the "definitive source"? Again, opinions vary.

I found an article that speaks to 3 types of forgiveness that resonated with me. Exoneration, forebearance and release. This resonated with me as I feel I have been looking for "Exoneration" (which is not possible for me) but most people appear to be talking about "Forebearance" or "Release" which MAY be possible. Since we can’t post links, I will summarize:

Exoneration
This is what we generally have in mind when we think of the word forgiveness. Exoneration essentially means that the slate is completely wiped clean and the relationship is fully restored to its previous sense of innocence. Basically, exoneration means to "forgive and forget," as the old saying goes. When you exonerate someone, it’s as if the harmful action never took place at all.

Part of the reason why it can be so difficult to forgive those who have committed transgressions against us is that we believe forgiveness always means wiping the slate clean.

The person who hurt you is truly sorry and takes full responsibility for his or her actions. They don’t make excuses, they ask for forgiveness, and they also provide you with the necessary confidence that the bad action will not be repeated in the future.

Forbearance
This second level of forgiveness applies when an offender either makes a partial apology or lessens their apology by suggesting that you are also partially to blame for their wrongdoing. They may even explicitly state that you did something to cause them to behave badly. While an apology may in fact be offered here, it’s usually not what was hoped for and may feel inauthentic (the often heard, "I’m sorry you feel that way" or "If I did anything to upset, I’m sorry," come to mind). Forbearance comes into play when the relationship at hand is one that matters to you. If the person is someone who is important in your life, you should exercise forbearance even if you bear no responsibility for what happened.

Forbearance means that you should stop dwelling on the offense, release any grudges you hold, and banish all revenge fantasies. However, unlike exoneration, the slate is not wiped completely clean with forbearance. Instead, it’s recommended that the person offering forbearance maintain a degree of watchfulness over the other person. This is similar to "forgive but don’t forget" or "trust but verify." With forbearance, you’re able to continue relationships with people who are important to you but who may not be fully trustworthy, at least at the present time.

Release
Release is the lowest level of forgiveness and applies to situations in which the person who hurt you has never acknowledged any wrongdoing. He or she has either never apologized or has offered an incomplete or insincere apology. Apology or not, no reparations have been given and the perpetrator has done little or nothing to improve the relationship. Some examples of where release may apply include:

Survivors of child abuse
Business people cheated by partners
Betrayal by friends or relatives

The solution here is release, which is a much lower level of forgiveness than exoneration or even forbearance. With release, you don’t even need to continue the relationship, but you do need to let go of your bad feelings and preoccupation with the negative thing that happened to you. Release demands that you stop defining your life by the hurt done to you, and it allows you to let go of the burden placed upon your psyche. This burden is like a silent "tax" that weighs you down and erodes your ability to be happy and enjoy peace of mind.

If you do not release the pain and anger and move past dwelling on old hurts and betrayals, you are essentially allowing the person who hurt you to live rent-free inside your mind. Holding on to past hurts and betrayals means that you continue to relive the original event over and over again, which takes a strong toll on your enjoyment of life. In contrast, release liberates you from the tyranny of re-experiencing your traumatic past and enables you to move on with your life.

Conclusion
While it would be nice to be able to fully forgive – exonerate – all those who have harmed us, this isn’t always possible. Even the more provisional type of forgiveness that is forbearance isn’t always an option in certain situations and relationships. But failing to let go of the past hurts us more than it will ever hurt the people who have done us wrong. Having the option of release available to us can take away a lot of our burden and allow us to live more positive and fulfilling lives. Of course, releasing the pain and resentment is easier said than done and may require both time and a concerted effort. My next post will focus on factors, tips, and strategies to enable us to exercise the various forms of forgiveness.

My WW has done little to no recovery/reconciliation work. In this space, the only level of forgiveness I can see giving is "release". That seems to align with "doing it for me".

ImAChump: those categories all seem helpful, thanks for putting them out there. I just notice that they are all prefaced by a description of the level of goodness of apology given. If that is true, that would mean that the control is all in the hands of the wayward, which I suspect we would all agree is incorrect. For all the struggles with definition here, I think one essential element is it must be freely given, which means the control is in the hands of the wronged party.
This is a more complicated subject than I’ve probably ever given it credit for.

InkHulk,

These are a synopsis of the categories, not the full article. There is much more nuance on each type of forgiveness. “Apology” isn’t even referenced in the “exoneration” example and none are “prefaced”. They all come in after an initial statement. Ignore the apology statements altogether and I still think there is great relevance. The “apology statement” for exoneration is as follows (and I pulled from several examples after the first 2 relevant paragraphs):

“The person who hurt you is truly sorry and takes full responsibility for his or her actions. They don’t make excuses, they ask for forgiveness, and they also provide you with the necessary confidence that the bad action will not be repeated in the future.”

“Is truly sorry and takes full responsibility for their actions” is WAY more than an apology and is foundational IMO if forgiveness or R are to even be attempted. I think That speaks to what many of us look to as minimum requirements after discovery. Especially the part about “not repeating the action in the future”. Do they have to ask for forgiveness, no. These examples are from general forgiveness and not unique to infidelity.

That said, I don’t agree that apologizing grants WS "control" over the forgiveness. They can apologize and ask for forgiveness, or not. BS can respond or not. The “giver” maintains control either it is “given” or not independent of anything the offender does or doesn’t do. Some BS may require remorse or an apology. Some may not. I don’t think it’s universal by any means.

IMO, this is more about the relationship. The relationship involves two people. Forgiveness is given from one party to another (hence the "give" part). It can be asked for, it can be freely given, or something in between. I feel if the relationship is to be maintained, there has to be some sort of repentance, apology, work to recover/reconcile. If wayward spouse says "fuck you, I’m out". The betrayed can still "forgive them" in their heart. They may or may not even tell the WS this. If they do, the WS may not even care "I never asked you for forgiveness". Then you’re getting into "if a tree falls in a forest" territory. Is it really even forgiveness if it is ONLY for you?

I agree to a point that "forgiveness has to be freely given". I don’t think an apology is coercion or “taking control” of the situation. I don’t think it has to be in a vacuum totally independent of anything the WS does or doesn’t do either.

The “letting go of anger and resentment” description of forgiveness done internally and independent of action by the WS sounds more like “getting to meh” or “you don’t even matter enough to hurt me anymore” and less like forgiveness. If that is forgiveness, then it is “scraping your ass on the bar as you fly over”. JMO. YMMV.

Complicated indeed.

[This message edited by ImaChump at 7:25 PM, Monday, November 20th]

Ima,

Apologies if this is a threadjack, but…

My WW has done little to no recovery/reconciliation work.

…why are you still in a relationship with a clearly unrepentant UW ?

Ima,

Apologies if this is a threadjack, but…

My WW has done little to no recovery/reconciliation work.

…why are you still in a relationship with a clearly unrepentant UW ?

Because I am 60 years old, retired, dependent upon my WW for health insurance, leaving would devastate our family and put us both in a precarious financial position. Starting over at this point is difficult for family, financial and health reasons.

I had given my WW some timelines to do the work. She was already falling dreadfully behind when she had a seizure and was diagnosed with a brain tumor. She has had a craniotomy, radiation and is now undergoing chemo. I won’t be the asshole who leaves my wife during cancer treatment regardless of what she has done and continues not to do.

Her chemo ends in April and if she is cancer free, the "clock starts again". I have started all the needed work to "pull the plug". If she isn’t cancer free and the prognosis is poor, I will eat the shit sandwich until she passes and no one will ever know.

That’s why.

I won’t be the asshole who leaves my wife during cancer treatment regardless of what she has done and continues not to do.

I also apologize for a threadjack, but I’d like to stop and mark a truly honorable and noble man. Sorry for all the difficulties you face, you are facing them with uncommon integrity. I commend you, sir.