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A day and half, and 3 bookstores later, I found Not Just Friends. But I was unable to find The Betrayal Bind. I guess I'll have to order that online.

I hear those of you who are telling me that my WH knew exactly what he was doing and understood that his conversations were inappropriate. He absolutely should know at this point that any discussion about relationship issues and negative comments about SOs is crossing boundaries. And he seems to understand that very well if it's me who does it, but somehow it seems to be OK and "no big deal" if it's him that does it. I also believe that he will continue to cross those boundaries as long as I don't push back. It's only when I refuse to let him get away with it that he will attempt to enact change.

Does this make me a fool? Probably. He is so used to being able to step all over me and get his way that it's hard for him to not try and do that anymore. Is he aware of this? If you asked him if he was ever abusive, he would say no. Because he believes that what he did to me throughout our M was normal. He admits it was selfish and some of the things he did he shouldn't have done, but will he admit it was abuse? No. Except the A of course.

It is frustrating and I know that from the outside looking in it is obvious. Yes I do sometimes feel like I'm being gaslit, and I'm still finding my voice. I stand up for myself a lot more now than pre A, but it's still very difficult. Honestly though, I agree with those who said I should detach in order to stop being hurt.

Our children are all adults now, the youngest is starting college and he and his sister are the only ones still at home (the economy, am I right?). I can't trust him. He wants me to, but I can't, especially since he still does not enforce good boundaries. Who knows what else he's discussed with this woman.

Therapy session is on Tuesday and I've asked him to come. We'll see how that goes, but again, even if he says all the right things, it's actions that matter, and I have no idea how he acts at work.

Oh he knows when hes beahavung inappropriately. Rule of thumb, if he wouldnt have these conversations with other men, he knows. He just wants to continue his behavior and he will evade, excuse, and deny. Which is why talking to him anymore is wasting your breath and frustrating.
You've chosen to stay. In order to live a life of peace, detaching and turning him into just a roommate is your only way to stay safe. Stop expecting him to behave as a husband. I'd personally set rules like him moving into his own room, no more swx between us, and he cannot bring his women to the marital home. Then,emotionally cut him loose cuz he's a lost cause. Maybe, after all of this he'll get his act together. Don't even engage in explanations anymore. If he tries to bring stupid shit up, look at him like he grew another head and turn around and walk away. Don't explain, don't ask questions, just don't engage. And don't do anything for him that you wouldn't do for a contentious roommate. Good luck.

Why are you wasting your time and energy to buying books for him that he probably won't read? And even if he does read them, what gives you any reason to think that the information will not be in one ear and out the other?

As usual, you are doing all of the hard work for him.

As StillLivin said, you want to stay with him, fine. But stop repeatedly setting yourself up for disappointment by expecting him to care about anyone but himself. It's just not his nature.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:58 PM, Monday, February 10th]

Ummmmmm. You are not the problem. He is!

You are not safe and unfortunately your H is not going to change. He has already proven that. If you STILL are having ANY discussion about what is appropriate - let’s face it, he’s a lost cause.

Frankly he understands all of it. He JUST DOESN’T WANT TO STOP THE EGO BOOST AND THRILL HE GETS.

That being said, I agree 100% with StillLivin. You are in a one sided marriage.

FWIW my H thought at dday2 he still had control over everything. Even me and decisions about our future. When he very quickly realized he didn’t, things changed very quickly b/c he had NO TIME to spare in getting me to consider R.

I talked to my H until I was blue in the face and nothing changed. The day I took action and started detaching (because I planned to D him) was the day HE realized he needed to change. And fast.

Repeating myself here:

PUT YOUR FOOT DOWN

As I said before, I'm still working on finding my voice and standing up for myself. It's hard to shrug off decades of being "less than" and feeling "undeserving" etc. Sounds great to be empowered and strong, but it takes great effort. I'm getting there, but it's an agonizingly slow process.

Do I know I deserve better? Yes. Is it difficult to demand better? Yes. What is that saying, "You teach people how to treat you." And that's what I've done, I've taught him that treating me this way is OK, and now, I have to teach him that it isn't.

There are reasons other than love for staying. Health insurance is a big one right now for sure. But that is my cross to bear. If my health becomes less important, or my mental health becomes detrimental, I'll rethink. Great choices huh?

Yes I am still doing a lot of heavy lifting, but my shoulders are getting tired. I'm getting tired. We'll see where my mental state is after tomorrow's therapy appointment. But I fear you are all right and he knows exactly what he is doing and since he's been getting away with it for decades, he wants that to continue.

I've put myself in this position, depending on him financially. I have little work experience and no personal savings. I am a work in progress and I'd rather work inside the M than outside for now. But a healthy level of detachment is going to have to be done if I want to stop being hurt by his actions.

I understand how hard it is.

It is so hard I couldn’t do it.

But that was a terrible mistake that I hope you don’t make.

You’ve heard that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Your WH is not going to change the status quo. He likes things the way they are.

It’s up to you. Find the strength. Divorce is not the only outcome.

And for anyone reading this, please ensure your daughters get the education they need to be self sufficient. The plight of so many women who are trapped is sickening.

I was you. I would afk for things and never get them. Simple things like "tell me if you will be late" instead of showing up HOURS past the time he said he’d be home.

However in one instant, I put in the witch boots and became a completely different person. I’m certain he’s probably a bit regretful he pushed me to become a bitch but I had nothing to lose. Hell, I was going to D him so I no longer cared what he thought, what he wanted, what he needed etc.

My anger fueled me to make some very serious drastic changes.

I wasn’t trying to preserve my marriage. I needed to preserve my sanity and get off this emotional journey/roller coaster I was on for a year.

If I could show you how much better my life is, you would be amazed. It works because my H had the "come to Jesus moment" that was needed to reconcile.

You could go the same thing I did but have a very different outcome. You need to be prepared for that. And I was. I had NOTHING to lose.

And you know the saying, the person with the least amount of skin in the game has the least amount to lose.

I relate to soooo much of what you posted! The first thing I want to address is him pushing you to befriend the coworker. I applaud you for refusing! My now XH did the same thing when a new woman started working at his job and they were becoming friendly. I was a bit concerned and so he suggested we become friends so I could see there was nothing to worry about. We did become friends and would semi-regularly meet up for dinner or drinks. Two years later I learned they had been having an A for over a year. During the entire course of the A, she was still texting me and we were getting together just the two of us. It still disgusts me. Being friends with her made the A even harder for me to sniff out since anytime I would get suspicious, I would decide nothing could possibly be happening bc she wouldn't have kept reaching out to me if it was. I was very, very wrong. There is no depth too low for some people to sink.

Next thing...boundaries. Like you, I used to talk myself blue in the fact trying to explain inappropriate v. appropriate behavior with the opposite sex. I have very strong boundaries/morals and always act as if my partner is there with me, even if he isn't. It's an easy rule for me to follow. I remember explaining that over and over to my XH and him never, ever getting it.

An interesting thing I heard recently is that before an A can begin, both people have to make space for the A. They each take steps closer and closer to the edge. The coworker is already doing that in telling your H about her private business. I'm sure your H is enjoying and getting something out of the female attention. I suspect that's what happened with my XH and AP. They didn't meet, shake hands, and start fucking. They crossed the line in many subtle ways long before that happened. Things like talking about issues in their relationships would certainly qualify.

Do I know I deserve better? Yes. Is it difficult to demand better? Yes. What is that saying, "You teach people how to treat you." And that's what I've done, I've taught him that treating me this way is OK, and now, I have to teach him that it isn't.

On the contrary, you don't have to teach him anything. You decide what you will and won't tolerate, regardless of how he chooses to behave.

And in this particular case, what does he actually need to learn? As a man whose had multiple affairs, he's more qualified than Shirley Glass to write a book about how seemingly friendly and innocuous interactions can escalate into full-blown sexual relationships. He knows damn well that a woman who tells a man about her marriage troubles and actually discloses the fact that she's been unfaithful to her husband is telegraphing her willingness and availability.

More importantly, as StillLivin' said, he knew that telling you all this was going to send you into an emotional spiral. In fact, it literally drove you into his arms as you sought comfort from him for the pain that he put you through.

You say you have your reasons for staying; whatever they are, you don't need to explain them or justify them to us. But you need to be honest with and be able to justify your reasons to yourself.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:14 PM, Monday, February 10th]

Let’s make one point very clear.

He continues to disrespect you.

My H never cursed me or called me names. His disrespect was hard for me to see. But once I did, I decided I was not going to allow it to continue.

At dday2 I was done! Done with him, done with his lies, done with his flirty behavior, etc.

Now you do not have to D your H. However you can change the dynamics of your relationship. It’s called the 180 and I urge you to read up on it. You start to emotionally detach to protect yourself. You put up a boundary that IF HE WILL NOT CHANGE, you will.

You start developing your own social life, things you do without him. If he doesn’t like it, too bad.

This is not done for any other reason than to protect yourself. If you like art, take a class. Join a book club. Take up a hobby or sport. You need your own identity and your own personal space to thrive.

Start putting yourself first, not him and not your marriage. Take that step. You will be glad you did.

I agree with this:

He KNOWS. I promise, he knows exactly what he is doing. Not only that,he seems to get some perverse pleasure in further gaslightjng you by telling you about his inappropriate conversations to get a reaction out of you so he can wash, rinse, and repeat a cycle of more gaslighting.

Detach and stop loving somebody who doesn't understand what love is. You cannot see the forest for the trees. If you decide tonstill stay and don't detach, you're going to let him drive you crazy and drain your soul too.

Unless he has the IQ/EQ of a slug, hes still playing games.

What I usually recommend were you a guy would be to read "No More Mr Nice Guy" but not sure what the female equivalent would be. Suffice it to say, dont buy what hes selling. Id laugh in his face and tell him to stop with tbe clueless act.

What hes doing is cruel.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 10:53 AM, Wednesday, February 12th]