SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

The pain and loss are very, very real. If one can't move forward without dragging that into the future, well, for me, I'd let it all go.

I used to believe that, too. I'm 19 years out from DDay and I know that the pain and hurt never goes away completely, what happened to us decades ago shapes who we are, and that having negative feelings about that is okay. I suppose you could think of it like being abused as a child. You're never going to not have negative feelings about that and you'll carry it with you forever, but you can still live a very good life and even have a good relationship with your parents if they're willing to own and atone for their abuse.

I also have to be very mindful about not putting on my Pollyanna rose-colored glasses and "forgiving" too soon. That can (and did) lead to stuffing feelings that will come burbling back up years later, unresolved and ready to party. My H and I both thought that we were pretty special; that we had the best relationship of anyone we knew because we got past infidelity and were better for it. We thought we were done, chapter closed.

Now we know that many things remained unresolved. Many things will always be painful. Some things are unforgiveable. But we still love each other and we're still best friends and we still want to be together. We like our messy life. I'm not interested in letting him go.

JMO.

I have zero interest in a relationship where one is down one, while I am up one. All that does is remind me of the pain, of how I am "better" or "up." that makes my partner less than and why on earth would I stay with someone who I feel is "less" than me. That makes my skin crawl.

Our R got to a point that it was like a dictatorship, my W was afraid to speak her mind about anything. She walked on eggshells and was so afraid I would D her for non A related things. I had to level her up in the M, stop using the A as a weapon, let her know its ok to disagree or challenge me, its ok to burn dinner or forget something at the store. This was the point I wanted open and honest communication even if it was communication I didn't like. We equaled up the M, but I wouldn't call it forgiveness.

Why is it assumed that if you don't forgive that are "dragging the hurt with you?"

That if you don't "forgive" then you are harboring ill will, discontent, etc.

I’m going to second the call for a definition to forgiveness. In my understanding of life, I can easily understand forgiveness without reconciliation. R without F, doesn’t compute for me.

The definition of what forgiveness means has been the subject of many posts around here over the years. Spoiler alert, there isn't a whole heck of a lot of consensus on the matter. I think that is why people have wildly different views on what R even is.

In my understanding of life, I can easily understand forgiveness without reconciliation. R without F, doesn’t compute for me.

I was the opposite when I was in your shoes. I felt like I could get past it and R, without actually having to forgive. Forgiveness was never my goal, when I set out to R. Somehow, I'm not totally sure when, I think it happened along the way.

I’m going to second the call for a definition to forgiveness. In my understanding of life, I can easily understand forgiveness without reconciliation. R without F, doesn’t compute for me.

For me personally, the closest description I can find is "exoneration forgiveness":

Exoneration is the closest to what we usually think of when we say "forgiveness". Exoneration
is wiping the slate entirely clean and restoring a relationship to the full state of innocence
it had before the harmful actions took place.

This is possible when:

The person who hurt you is truly sorry, takes full responsibility
(without excuses) for what they did, asks forgiveness, and gives you confidence that they will
not knowingly repeat their bad action in the future.

Now, IMO there is no scenario where the relationship can be restored to the "full state of innocence". In this case, it is more Marriage 2.0 vs Marriage 1.0.

What exactly I’m looking for isn’t quite this cut and dried, but this is close. Absolution/Exoneration fits more closely for me than the "letting go of anger and resentment" definition. I feel I can possibly let go of anger and resentment but that doesn’t mean my WW is exonerated.

They often say forgiveness is for yourself, right? If so, what does it really have to do with reconciliation?

There are (2) issues in my life that parallel each other-my religious views and my forgiveness abilities. To make a long story short, I always thought I was Christian. My father was, and my mother was non practicing Jewish. I was never baptized, and didn't go to church, but was raised in a semi-Catholic setting.

I met my now wife. She is Catholic. I go through RCIA, get baptized, confirmed, and receive communion at the age of 21. But there was always some inkling that I wasn't really Christian. It didn't matte how hard I tried; I just couldn't make it go away. I do feel bad for my wife, because she is of faith, and I feel that I may have married her under false pretenses. But no matter what, I can't make myself what I am not. That is on me.

Enter forgiveness. I haven't forgiven my wife for her affair. I've accepted it; she is my equal and my partner. But if I was to 'forgive' her, it would be inauthentic. What good is that? Who is being fooled? The forgiveness at this point is on ME, and I haven't done so. Call it what you want, but again, if forgiveness is for oneself, why does it matter to reconciliation?

***As an aside, my wife says that I am one of the most 'Christian' people that she knows. Our value systems line up very well, and that is what matters most.

Once again, I agree with jb3199.

Enter forgiveness. I haven't forgiven my wife for her affair. I've accepted it; she is my equal and my partner. But if I was to 'forgive' her, it would be inauthentic. What good is that? Who is being fooled? The forgiveness at this point is on ME, and I haven't done so. Call it what you want, but again, if forgiveness is for oneself, why does it matter to reconciliation?

Amen.

I think that I am a very empathetic person. I can easily see why people do the things that they do and I extend my understanding to them, even if what they've done is unforgivable. I understand why someone who has been abused as a child might abuse their own child. I understand why bullies bully. I understand how people find themselves on a slippery slope or deep into an A. It doesn't make what they did forgivable, but it's understandable.

Oooh, I found this flying from my fingertips and now I'm chewing on it, trying to figure out if it's authentic: I can easily extend forgiveness to the PERSON, but not to their act. I understand why my H was a shit to me when our first baby was born. He was scared, he was mad, etc. He acted out and it hurt me. I can lend compassion and understanding for his mental state then and to his subsequent guilt and pain for having been cruel to me, but I don't feel forgiveness for what it did to me and how it changed everything. Does that make sense? Hmm.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 4:01 PM, Wednesday, November 15th]

Oooh, I found this flying from my fingertips and now I'm chewing on it, trying to figure out if it's authentic: I can easily extend forgiveness to the PERSON, but not to their act.

Seems similar to the phrase thrown around some churches: "hate the sin, love the sinner".

Seems similar to the phrase thrown around some churches: "hate the sin, love the sinner".

And here I was, thinking I'd stumbled on something profound. Yep, it's the same!

I think the definition of forgiveness is defined by each individual. So it's hard to reach consensus in a group. I think that's why I bristle at any comments on forgiveness being put in absolute terms. You MUST or you NEVER or what have you. We can only speak to our own experiences and definitions.

I too include the idea of wiping out the debt. For me personally, I know I can't be made whole again and I know that as long as I carry the feeling of being owed, I will not be a good partner.

Which ties to letting go of resentment. If I feel owed, I'm going to be pretty pissed off about it. Again, for me personally, I have to make a conscious decision to let that resentment go.

That doesn't mean the memory of what happened to me doesn't hurt. It doesn't mean that I won't still be triggered. It certainly doesn't mean rugsweeping. The past is always with us. Butin my life I have found that when I forgive, the past hurts less and I'm able to move forward.

I had a very emotionally abusive mom (diagnosed borderline). I've forgiven her. It took years but I was able to see her as a flawed, ill person. It took her years, but she owns her shit. And she has done her best to make amends, but her ability to do so is quite limited. I accept that. I forgive. Now, we will never have a normal mother/daughter relationship. Whatever deep bond that should have existed, doesn't. I accept that too. I don't blame her for it, it is what it is. Forgiving her did allow me to move forward with her in my life. My resentment left me. My disappointment/pain was acknowledged and then let go. I have serious boundaries with her because she is who she is (although better) and I protect myself first. But when I was full of active pain and resentment, I could barely be in the same zip code as her.

Again, this is just my experience and my personality. YMMV.

Hmmm ... I haven't noticed a shift on SI to the idea that R requires forgiveness, but the responses indicate maybe it has occurred. When I joined SI, the common approach was that R does NOT require forgiveness.

A couple of thoughts ...

1) One really needs to define 'forgiveness' to have an intelligent, intelligible discussion about it. To me, it means something like 'give up all desire to see WS punished and to give up all desire for revenge'. I never expected to forgive in that way, but I did - after 3.5 years of consistent R behavior from my W. I think I benefitted from that more than my W did. It was never a goal of mine, but it snuck up on me. I was shocked when I realized it had happened.

In retrospect, I think my W earned that forgiveness. My reco is to let this happen but not to make it a goal. This forgiveness came because R was going well. I don't think it helped R at all, though it helped me.

I hope that makes sense.

2) M1965 wrote something I had never seen before that made a lot of sense. It was something like, 'You forgive the person, not the act.' That's probably akin to acceptance.

3) I forgave myself on d-day, though I didn't realize that's what I did. That way, whenever I had thoughts about 'why did this happen to me?' or 'I hurt WS in this way' I could stop the messages by telling myself I had forgiven the A, so I should stop those lines of thought.

*****

None of the above were required for R.

*****

So what do 'forgive' and 'forgiveness' mean to you?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 6:47 PM, Wednesday, November 15th]

You all have given me a lot to respond to. And I will. That will have to wait a few days. The next few days will be busy for me. I just didn't want anyone to think I posted and ran. I have A LOT to say.

I know I can't be made whole again and I know that as long as I carry the feeling of being owed, I will not be a good partner.

I carried this feeling for a long time and, honestly, so did my H. I think he still does. I'm not looking for atonement for the past so much as a true commitment to being trustworthy and acting as a full-fledged partner in the marriage. I reached my wit's end about a year ago with always having to be "the pole to his flag." What I feel I'm owed is what's finally happening now: We're on the same team. We're pulling equal weight. I don't mean A recovery weight; we're far past that and we did well at that. I mean the running of our household.

To me, it means something like 'give up all desire to see WS punished and to give up all desire for revenge'.

Once R began, I really didn't feel the need to punish or get revenge. (Not concerning him, anyway. The AP? Yep. I wanted to flatten her with a Peterbilt. I don't give a crap about forgiving her.)

I forgave myself on d-day, though I didn't realize that's what I did.

That took a lot longer for me, and it may not yet be entirely complete. Before DDay, I overlooked or justified a lot of very obvious red flags because they didn't align with the story that I was telling myself. That's tough to reconcile.

The next few days will be busy for me.

Sending you good juju! Thanks for starting a really great discussion.

Hellfire

For ME, forgiving means letting go,and saying it's ok.

Well…if it is OK, there’s nothing to forgive, right?

For an awful lot of people, I think not forgiving should be written as notforgiving. It is an activity they actively engage in. They get up in the morning and spend the day notforgiving.

Forgiving, on the other hand, tends to be a passive thing. Just stop dragging around the anvil of anger. Drop it. Doesn’t mean what happened is OK. Doesnt mean rug sweep. Doesn’t mean pretend it didn’t happen. Doesn’t even mean you tell them they’re forgiven. You just let the load drop.

It sounds to me, Hellfire, like you are there. However we define things. Very cool.

So I’m definitely not a surviving infidelity subject matter expert on the distinctions between the concept of forgiveness vs. acceptance vs. reconciliation. Even if I was, I doubt I would do a great job of explaining it in a way that FELT right to others, but I do recall finding benefit in believing that there was a distinction between the concepts myself, so I’ll do my best to explain how I see it. I’ve read a bunch of descriptions of what forgiveness does or doesn’t mean over the years, but I don’t think that any definition of forgiveness that anyone could have given me in the early days would have helped me get here. Before I start, I want to point out that it’s not like they are distinct stages or chapters, where you complete one, put it aside and then begin the other. A lot of it was happening simultaneously and work/progress in one area, in most cases helped in others. That said, I do believe the concepts were distinct.

I remember reading a post on SI in my earlier days where someone (or multiple people) were talking about how forgiveness was not a necessary precursor for R – that you could R without having to forgive - and I remember feeling enormous relief in that, because I think at the time I really felt like I would be capable of accepting it all and moving past it, but the concept of forgiveness, which at the time I felt like involved in some way saying "don’t worry about it, it’s okay", felt inconceivable and unachievable, at least to me. I’d never done any critical thought on the concept of forgiveness was, but I felt deeply that it wasn’t okay, and I couldn’t imagine ever feeling like it was. Frankly, although I believed at the time that my husband was demonstrating signs of remorse and all signs were pointing to the fact that he was a good candidate for R, I just didn’t feel like he DESERVED to be forgiven – whatever amorphous thing that meant to me at the time. I kind of put the idea of forgiveness on the backburner and focused on the parts that felt more achievable.

For me, acceptance was my immediate focus and ended up coming first. Acceptance, for me, had to do with understanding the A - what it involved, why he did it, what that said about him, what that said about our relationship, understanding and rewriting my own relationship and marital history, and considering all the ways our relationship would forever be changed. It was about seeing my husband, his A, and our relationship for what it really was – in other words, accepting the reality of the situation, understanding that neither of us could change it (it would always be part of our history), and understanding that the only (positive) way forward was to learn and grow from the experience.

Reconciliation was about the process of rebuilding the marriage. It had a lot to do with whether my husband had what it took to be a safe partner going forward and whether I had what it took to be a good partner to him in the circumstances. It was about doing the work. It was about building trust and transparency and a level of honesty that hadn’t previously existed in our relationship and learning more about who we REALLY were as people and learning to fall in love those (imperfect) people. It was about figuring out what was important to us and what we valued in our relationship and identifying and correcting dysfunctional patterns that existed between us.

Forgiveness, which was never my goal or something that I actively worked towards or felt compelled to give, seems to have happened somewhere along the way. Perhaps it was a byproduct of some of the above, I don’t know. It was certainly the thing I worked the least on. I appreciate others will have different views of what it means to forgive, and I know some religions have some very specific views on forgiveness, but FOR ME, forgiveness was ultimately about letting go of the negativity and bitterness and resentment that I harboured related to the A. In saying that I forgive my husband, I mean that I don’t hold the A against him anymore, it’s not a negative mark on his record that he has to continually repent for. The slate or scoreboard that I have in the back of my brain, has effectively been wiped clean. This doesn’t mean I have forgotten that the A happened or that I’ve somehow reached a point where I think having an A is okay or acceptable or justified - it wasn’t and never is – but I think it means that I’m okay with it. It means that I’m not holding it against him or keeping score.

Obviously, some of this happened in the earlier stages of R and some of it was incredibly intentional. I realized early in R that if I wanted the new marriage I was building to be a healthy/happy one, I couldn’t (and didn’t want to) punish my husband indefinitely. I didn’t want the resentments that certainly still existed in my brain (and which I felt very much entitled to), to bring toxicity into the marriage. I didn’t want to use my "but you had an affair" trump card every time we had a fight, or I was having a bad day, and I didn’t want to make him my scapegoat for every negative emotion that I had – even when I FELT like it was A-related. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not perfect and that dynamic certainly (and even appropriately) existed at times, but I was conscious of it and recognized it as a problem that was mine to solve (rather than an appropriate balancing of the scales). I cringe at this phrase, because it is so often cried by non-remorseful Waywards shortly after D-day as way to bully their BS into rugsweeping, but I couldn’t punish him forever. This doesn’t mean that I rugswept, when there were triggers and issues and concerns I had that were related to the A, I didn’t hesitate to raise them. But I also practiced discipline in what I related to the affair and what was separate. Yes, my husband’s tendency towards selfishness was something that contributed to his ability to have an A – but I wasn’t calling it an A-trigger when he reached for the last chicken wing before making sure I didn’t want it (even if my brain had a tendency to go there).

So yeah, for a while there maybe I was outwardly practicing something that, to some, looked like forgiveness – but inwardly, I wasn’t ready to give the trump card up. The resentment, the mental score keeping, it still existed. As time went on and healing occurred, the resentment subsided over time, but for a long time it was still there, mostly dormant. Lying latent, but there if I needed it. I have always found righteousness/justice/anger to be powerful and motivating. I think for a while there was comfort in keeping it in my back pocket. I’m sure it prevented me from rugsweeping or accepting less than I deserved.

I’m not really sure of when I let it go of the last of the resentment, but I’m pretty sure it’s gone. Like HouseofPlane said, it was a passive thing (probably made possible by a whole lot of very intentional things). People always say that forgiveness is for you, and I do think there is ultimately truth in that. I’m not sure if I’ve ever even told my husband I forgive him. I kind of assume he thinks that happened some time ago.

"To err is human, to forgive, divine."

I'm no Goddess.(even though I like to think I am lol)

The things my stbxwh did are unforgivable, period. I dont need to forgive any of it to move happily forward with my life.

I read a quote recently that hit me like a ton of bricks. FORGIVE YOURSELF FOR WHAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHEN YOU DIDN'T KNOW IT. That right there was powerful. And forgiving myself for that - recent event - was a type of release and/or freedom.

I also routinely ask myself that old Ann Landers question "are you better off with him or without him". The answer was and remains "with him". But as sad as it is to say - if that changes (i.e. he cheats again), I'll know what I have to do.

I like your post Emergent. It says what I was trying to say but more organized and clear. I agree with you, at least, for me and my personal feelings on forgiveness.

Thank you for that post.