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I’ve read that affairs are based on fantasy and therefore waywards see only the good in the AP. The wayward believes the AP is the most incredible & amazing thing while the spouse is viewed as miserable, ugly, nasty, boring, etc.
BUT what happens when the affair ends? Do cheaters still see their AP in the same positive light? Do they still feel and believe AP is this amazing lover, partner, human being? Does that fantasy ever lift? If so, how does that even happen? How does one go from believing something so firmly that he was willing to risk everything to now thinking AP was not special after all?

BUT what happens when the affair ends? Do cheaters still see their AP in the same positive light? Do they still feel and believe AP is this amazing lover, partner, human being? Does that fantasy ever lift? If so, how does that even happen? How does one go from believing something so firmly that he was willing to risk everything to now thinking AP was not special after all?

The short answer is that depends.

Some people snap out of it quickly while others take more time. Some WS get right down to wanting to work on themselves and others have a difficult time being able to see their true reflection in the mirror.

Are you dealing with someone that is remorseful? Or someone that is only upset that they were caught and dealing with the aftermath?

It is my belief that for those who are truly remorseful and want to make changes to become a better person, putting action where their mouth is, those are the ones that are able to quickly see the AP for who they really are.

For me personally, the more I said out loud and the more I thought about each action, the more disgusted I became with the affair and the AP. It took a lot of work afterwards to figure out why and how I allowed myself to be in such a toxic situation and consider it something positive.

Do cheaters still see their AP in the same positive light?

Madhatter here, and I can only speak for two people (mi esposo y yo), but the answer is no.

Do they still feel and believe AP is this amazing lover, partner, human being? Does that fantasy ever lift?

No. But then again, I was in an EA only, so I didn't experience the lover or partner thing in those sense. Then again, neither did my mad hatter wife.

How does one go from believing something so firmly that he was willing to risk everything to now thinking AP was not special after all?

Fascinating question, I think it really boils down to the fact that at some point, the wayward, or cheater as you described, faces the reality of what they have done. Not all of them of course, but those wayward who truly want to change for the better, at some point, they have to face exactly what they've done and realize at a deep level that they do not ever want to do that to the person they truly love and cherish. I know that may sound Hallmark-ish, but I truly mean that one of the first things a wayward shuts off is their empathy. Speaking personally, I've always tested high on the personality charts for empathy and once I got back to that, I began to see just how horrible my actions were and there was a person, the AP, who was just as involved in all that as I was.

Additionally, in both of our cases, but I will speak to mine, the AP let her mask slip. What she didn't know is that my wife knew everything, literally everything that there was, my wife had possession of it and she knew it all. It was an EA, done through WhatApp and Facebook Messenger that I never deleted, so she had everything. My EA AP reached out to my wife to tell her things that she already knew. But then, when she didn't get a rise out of either of us, she created new fake Facebook accounts and even went and got a different phone number to text me. But the men crazier part for me, and the thing that truly turned us agains our APs, was...and this is going to sound hilariously ironic coming from a cheater...was that the APs deceived us. In the case of my AP, after hiring a PI, in Mexico, we discovered where my AP lived didn't match where she said he was from, that her husband was abusive and they had nothing, let's just say her husband's family was made very wealthy in Mexico off the oil and gas business. I mean, she lied about so many things it is crazy. In the case of my wife's AP, a private investigator revealed that he was in fact married with young kids, but had for all the time they'd known each other (about 4 years) successfully convinced her that he was single I'll never forget the look on her eyes as she read the report about her AP from the PI that we hired. I mean, there are a lot of reasons, but I think knowing the truth about the AP and not the fantasy, well, frankly, completely deflates the fantasy and pretty quick I might add.

I mean, the part I said about the cheater being upset that their AP is lying to them...whilst one or both parties is gleefully lying to their partner/spouse about the affair that they are both having. Yeah, it sounds like something crazy, sort of a cognitive dissonance if you will, but I think it runs deeper at the subconscious level. See, as highly intelligent mammals, the development of our consciousness has gone in stages and it is only in the relatively recent past that homo sapiens developed and were able to develop fairly sophisticated languages and forms of communication. That is to say that the part of our brains that we associate with language and the cognition we recognize as human today, well that developed far later in the evolutionary scale than the part of our brain that knew being deceived, even if we didn't have the language to describe it was "deceit", was harmful to us. In the wild, being able to discern who was lying to you and who wasn't, an absolute necessity for survival, so that is why when we talk on here about the lizard brain, that is describing how the body knows it is being deceived sometimes well before we know that we are being cheated on. Because, again, the part of the brain that recognizes infidelity, developed before we had the cognition capable of language, which is why those gut feelings are just feelings and something we struggle with to find a way to put words to, since it developed so far before we had language to describe it.

My W describes it as he played a role in her A fantasy, she had to manufacture all the wonderful things she felt about him. After Dday and time for the fog to lift, there was nothing wonderful about him and she disgusted by him. I believe her because the guy doesn't fit her type at all. My W is very health and fitness conscience, and without describing him or offending anyone I will just say, fitness is not something he strives for. He was not special, he was right place right time.

BUT what happens when the affair ends? Do cheaters still see their AP in the same positive light? Do they still feel and believe AP is this amazing lover, partner, human being? Does that fantasy ever lift? If so, how does that even happen? How does one go from believing something so firmly that he was willing to risk everything to now thinking AP was not special after all?

The answer to the question(s) is/are the perfect grad school response...it depends.

It took my wife quite some time post-A to see her AP for what he is. A piece of garbage who only cared about getting her in bed.

We're 7 years out and she has a physical reaction to simply hearing his name (which happens to be the same name as 3 of my good friends). She no longer holds onto the initial fantasy she had. She recognizes her faults in her thinking at that time as well.

As to the "how does that happen" part...it also depends. For my wife, it took being honest about everything...and that took a long time to happen.

Every WS is different. Some never get out of the fantasy world and are not good R material. Some break out of their fantasy world within a few days/weeks. Some take a few months.

Ultimately, there are no guarantees on when/how a WS comes down out of their fantasy.

The Original Poster said…

For the wayward spouse " the spouse is viewed as miserable, ugly, nasty, boring, etc."

For the way wards who replied above…is this how you viewed your spouse? How is anyone ever supposed to get over thinking their spouse felt that way about them?

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 5:28 AM, Wednesday, December 6th]

I’ll weigh in as a betrayed spouse who survived two affairs.

First was a 4 year EA (in person) to someone who pretended to be my friend too. It finally ended and completely rug swept.

15 years later it’s a typical mid life crisis affair. They met at a bar and he was very interested in her. Two weeks after dday1 he’s going to D me. Yes I was completely blindsided.

I watched my H of 25 years become someone I hardly recognized.

I was standing in his way of true happiness and he made sure I knew it.

Funny thing happened on dday 2. He ended the affair (round 2) and I found out he was still cheating. He suddenly is 100% committed to R - except I am 100% committed to D him. He came out of the affair fog in his own, but not before destroying what little was left of our marriage.

I don’t know how he changed his view of her, but the OW decided to get revenge and sent me months and months of emails between them. It only helped b/c my H couldn’t lie about his role in the affair or give me "I don’t know" as answers.

I had very clear insight into the fantasy. And my H’s need for ego boosts from women. And his mindset. And most of all, his behavior when not with me.

When the cheaters throw each other under the bus, you then see the ugly reality of two people who have been lying to each other.

Like roaches, in the light of day all the cheaters want to do is scurry back to their hole and avoid the fall out.

But the harder part for the betrayed is realizing how your spouse really felt about you. The lies they tell themselves to justify the affair is so damaging, so painful to the BS that I wonder how/why couples can successfully R.

It’s a miracle we are still together. For the 1st year of R I was certain I made a mistake and should have D him. Common sense kept telling me to D him. Not sure how he turned it around but he did.

And in 10 years I have not had to worry once that he would cheat again. Finally standing up to him and having him realize he is no longer my top priority changed his behavior and mindset.

I had two ddays. If I had to rank them, the first was the worst mentally, physically and emotionally - the first affair was an EA that evolved into a PA - the whole thing from start to finish lasted about 4 months. (2nd Dday was last year - EA that spanned about 10 days). In the 1st A, the affair fog was STRONG with both WH & the AP. Once the whole house of cards fell in on itself, it took minutes, literally minutes for the affair fog to lift. Once the scales fell off my fWH eyes, he saw for himself how toxic the whole situation was - he saw her for WHO she really was. Cheaters LIE. To their spouses, to their kids, to their families, friends, co-workers - but mostly, they LIE to themselves and each other. That’s what kept this A going. I mean it blew up after 4 months but in IC he was forced to reconcile that HE himself had chose that path, he was forced to face the truth that HE made the decision to risk it all, blow up the family for a worthless POS. And then once the veil was lifted, he saw her with his eyes wide open, no fog to dim the light on all her flaws, her character. It was a revealing moment for him. She was no longer this amazing human. She was a cheat and a liar - just like he was.

I’m the betrayed spouse, but to answer this question:

" the spouse is viewed as miserable, ugly, nasty, boring, etc."

I had all their text correspondence and going back thru the transcripts they both did a lot of bitching and complaining about how evil their spouses were (meaning me and OBS). I didn’t know much about AP & OBS marriage at that time - but everything that he was telling her about me was LIES. I was not lazy, I was NOT a horrible mother, I was not a horrible wife. He just lied and lied and lied to her. Some of it was idiotic "no we are NOT sleeping together! We sleep in separate bedrooms!" LIE. We had a small 2bdrm house - of course we were still sleeping together AND we were still intimate. Even after dday and he filed for D…he was still coming around acting like my husband and I stupidly gave in each time thinking hot sex would win him back lol 🤦🏻‍♀️ He was lying to her about why he was coming over to my/our house all the time - he had moved out, but you wouldn’t know it because he was at the house EVERY day! He’d tell her he had to fix something or mow the yard. Yeah right. He was there to continue to act like he wanted to reconcile, still loving on me, thirsting after me 😂😂. So when I read his words about how terrible I was - that didn’t match what was going on in REAL LIFE. And he CERTAINLY wasn’t telling her that we were still sleeping together! Lies lies lies. You can’t build a relationship on lies. To the AP I guess believing that I was this horrible person made it seem like she was "saving" him from this doomed marriage. They BOTH had to lie to rationalize in their minds that what they were doing was justified. I was supposedly a terrible wife - therefore in their brains, that was the rationale needed to justify the affair. She did a lot of complaining about her spouse to my WH too - but later I found out (from OBS) that those were lies too; she had been cheating on him for years. So this wasn’t her first rodeo. Of COURSE the betrayed spouses have to be the villains in the story. It was these lies that kept fueling the affair. Once everything started to unwind, families finding out, kids finding out, the whole lid pops off and it’s all out there for all to see and witness - THEN and only then did WH really see the damage he had done.

My WH & AP were HS classmates 25 yrs earlier. They didn’t even associate with each other in HS. But they reconnected on FB and that’s how it all began. Now - 11 yrs later my WH & AP CANNOT STAND one another 😂😂😂 After the A blew up and we reconciled; she stalked us, did a lot of crazy irrational things, scared our kid, our families. OBS divorced her and we reconciled and then he (OBS) remarried someone who wasn’t a psycho. And of course she’s the victim in all of this and the breakdown of her marriage, her divorce, her life imploding, her reputation ruined is due to all the "lies" I said about her!!🙄 She’s a piece of work all right. She told a mutual friend that I walked away from "all this" smelling like a rose! That SHE was the victim and me and WH ganged up on her to ruin her. 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

Later in IC, my WH when confronted with all these lies he had said about me had to face the fact that he did say those things, he had to own up to why he said them, and admit that he lied to keep the A going - I mean to be truthful, reading what was said about me, even if it was lies - it still hurt deeply. It’s lie vs reality. I knew the truth - but deep in that affair fog, they were feeding off each other. So many lies.

[This message edited by Blackbird25 at 9:09 AM, Wednesday, December 6th]

WS here.....

For me I realised fairly quickly that it was all lies, my AP knew I was married but chose to ignore the fact. Never spoke to me about it and never raised it for the first month of our A. The moment she raised it, it was like being snapped back to reality however I continued to try and believe that "well I felt this way a week ago so it must be genuine" as a result I left my BS said some truly horrific things to her and walked away. Over the next two months of comings and goings and treating my BS terribly and beginning to see my AP for who she really was and also actually see who my BS was (a kind, loving and forgiving partner) I finally plucked up the courage to leave and walk away from the AP and was ready to reap whatever hell she threw our way.

I was already at the point by then though at seeing who she actually was and what kind of person she is like. So it didnt take me long to snap out of it and to realise actually she was a giant POS and that this was all just a fantasy built on a foundation of lies and deceit.

You also asked

For the wayward spouse " the spouse is viewed as miserable, ugly, nasty, boring, etc."

See I never viewed her physically in that way. My BS is stunning, think Rachel from friends.....she is a truly beautiful woman and has the personality to boot. I have destroyed this woman in more ways than I will ever be able to explain and I will forever be sorry to her for that. The slug however is a hideous creature, she is tarty dyes her hair jet black, has a receding hair line and is confrontational and aggressive. She is also a serial home wrecker and is full of self entitlement along with other issues. This is someone I just have nothing in common with and have no interest in however at the time believed she was amazing and we had loads in common.

My issue with my BS was that I blew EVERYTHING up. She could have said the sky was blue and I'd have snapped at her about something. I just threw everything at her verbally BUT I know it's not true and I know that this was done solely to justify my actions and my affair and blaming her at THAT point for my actions!! Once the discussions started with my BS it became then clear what I had done and that actually all of the above was because of me trying to justify what I was doing and actually she had done nothing so for me it was easy to slip back from the lies and then start accepting what I did etc.

I feel I have rambled on a bit so apologies for that!!

BS here.

My WS claims he was never choosing between two women. He was choosing between himself and the rest of his life (me, marriage, family) etc. The affair provided him ego kibbles and escape. While he was certainly infatuated with the AP, he claims he knew from the jump she was not some great love of his. Only a thrilling escape from reality.

I point this out because the only "fog" he had to come out of was his selfish and deluded thinking about what he was entitled to and what actually made him happy.

I have asked him how he thinks of AP now. Since she called me and went all scorched earth when he ended things, he does not think fondly of her. He acknowledges the affair was his fault but he sees now that her flattery and ingratiating herself ("I will always have your back. No one will protect you like me," was manipulation. She had an endgame (to end up with him) and when that didn't work out, her mask came all the way off.

I asked him how he thinks about the affair now given his disdain for the AP herself. Specifically I've asked does he fondly recall the fun and excitement. He says no. He compared it to be an alcoholic. Sure drinking and partying is a good time in the moment but the devastation caused by being an alcoholic is ugly. Thoughts of the affair now bringing him shame and pain. Much like a drunk feels shame when they sober up. The "good times" are now only the steps he took to destroy his life.

I don't know if the partner who cheated understands how infuriating and nonsensical that sounds. It is really Wayward Thinking. Period.

I mean, it is 100% real in that you entered into the relationship UNDER YOUR OWN AGENCY. YOU, yes, you, were the one who DECIDED, IN REAL LIFE to give your love, attention, body, AND trust to someone else instead of me. Now, just because a relationship is toxic just does not change that.

In fact, as far as I am concerned, it even makes the pain WORSE. Not only did you chose someone else instead of me, but to add insult to injury, the someone else you picked over me is a total asshat and on some level you even knew this--or SHOULD HAVE known this--yourself. Damn!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:31 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

How the cheater looks views their AP in retrospect varies.

Some cheaters look back on their affairs with absolute disgust at both themselves and their APs.

Some cheaters regret the consequences of their affair (ie, the fallout from getting caught) but still hold on to fond memories of affair itself.

And then there are some cheaters who still actively carry a torch for their APs and consider them to be the great loves of their lives. These cheaters actively resent their spouses; they're only remaining married because of finances and/or children... or the AP is unavailable.

It's generally easy to tell which one you have by their actions.

The first type will bend over backwards to repair your relationship and expresses nothing but contempt when the AP's name is mentioned.

The second type will do whatever you require of them to remain married (but nothing more) and will listen to you bash the AP while doing their best to avoid speaking about the AP themselves.

The third mopes around, can barely muster the effort to feign regret, won't even tolerate hearing a bad word about AP, and expects you to be grateful that you still get to breathe the same air as them.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:55 PM, Wednesday, December 6th]

Hi cedarwoods,

I haven’t read the responses but here is my answer:

It’s all gradual, and the answers can vary a lot depending on the growth that happens or doesn’t happen after the affair.

What I know to be true is that we all lie to ourselves about things. We tend to believe our thoughts. For example, prior to my affair I was terribly unhappy. So I looked at things through that lens. When you are looking for the bad you will find it more than the good. When you are looking for the good, you will see more of it than the bad.

Those thoughts become behaviors, and those behaviors tend to make things worse or make things better based on their quality.

Going into my affair, I had myself convinced that my husband didn’t love or respect me. That he just liked all the services I provided. That doesn’t make the affair okay, or the thoughts or behaviors that I literally had to spend years then unwinding. But unchecked, it led me to subconsciously want to blow up my marriage because I was a coward to face it.

The affair happened, it was real. But it was based on projecting a lot of things onto a person who had none of the qualities I assigned to them. And it was based in projecting a lot of bad qualities on my husband that didn’t really exist or were not as exaggerated as I made them to be. So the illusions or delusions about the ap were unwound in the first year.

All this positivity I placed on the AP was me needing the validation he was giving to me to be worth something, for it to be true. It all stemmed from my relationship with myself. I didn’t feel good about myself (which is a simplified understatement for something that was very complicated) and my fantasy was more about this skewed version of the person I thought I wanted to be and that I would like better. He was the audience/consumer of that and in hindsight that was his value to me.

My husband could not provide that because he knew me. My husband was reality, and the reality I had built for myself was not positive. I blamed him for a lot of things that were my responsibility to provide for myself.

So Jo I don’t see the AP in a positive light. I don’t feel like I actually know the person. He existed in the projections that I assigned to him. After the affair was over, in therapy I had an assignment where I had to write the traits I liked about him down. Not only was the list pretty sad, I really didn’t have evidence that he even had those traits. I was caught up in the highs, and building it all up to avoid the lows. I was escaping my crisis/depression.

So none of it was a light switch, it took a lot of digging to find the roots of these thoughts and problems and feelings. It took laying down new soil and planting new things and tending to them for an extended period of time to have them grow.

My truth is the quiluty of any relationship is in direct correlation to my relationship to myself. I was a shitty person to have an affair, and that was a reflection of me. Not the versions I created for the AP or my husband.

So when I say "it was escapism" it was. But the gravity of that is huge. I have learned to be responsible for creating the life and relationships I want. That meant learning a lot of new skills and a long, deep, self examination. This didn’t happen in months, it happened in years.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:36 AM, Monday, December 11th]

I’d argue that often the affair partner isn’t put on a pedestal. The affair partner is simply the drug of choice to escape life’s stressors. My husband knew all along his AP was nothing special. Similarly to an alcoholic accepting any alcohol to get him drunk, my husband would have accepted anything with female parts to get his high. That is where the phrase "could have been anyone" comes from and looking at it that way it could have been. Upon discovery, she was easy to quit because the pain of discovery and its ensuing shitshow negated any "highs" the affair previously gave. I think my husband was such a desperately depressed, selfish, and emotionally weak man he truly lacked the executive functioning to realize all he was risking. This is not an excise or justification but I do not believe he ever thought "wow, If I cross this line I might lose it all, but this woman is worth it" any more than the alcoholic consciously considers his/her life and family before taking a drink. Or the diabetic who can’t lay off the cookies…..🤷‍♀️

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding the fantasy-aspect of infidelity…
Maybe it’s me misunderstanding it, but the way I see it is as follows:

When a WS is caught having an affair the BS has two good paths out of infidelity: You can reconcile, or you can divorce.
If you divorce your spouse can think the OW is a princess that farts rose-water scented gold-glimmer, never tired, never mensurates and is always in a good mood and they "had to" cheat because the marriage and you are so terrible. In fact – that fantasy can be to your advantage since the WS is in such a rush to get out they are literally willing to pay their out with a disadvantageous divorce settlement.

If you reconcile… that reconciliation can ONLY be from ONE place and for ONE reason: You – the BS reconcile because you WANT to be with the WS, and the WS because they WANT to be with you.
Any other excuse – kids, money, status, age… whatever… might be factors that impact the decision, but never the REASON.
If coparents are sensible then kids survive divorce, at least better than being in emotionally abusive households. Assets are divided relatively fairly in divorce, and people generally recover financially. Your friends and neighbors generally don’t give a hoot a month after d, once the newest gossip arises… You can remove all the reasons – all the excuses. I would rather be broke at sixty with the possibility of making money, rather than resentful for a decade and sixty, with some more years of resentment ahead.

When your wife has been meeting Guido the office gigolo with the wonder-schlong and is convinced he’s her soul-mate and painted you as the evil ogre keeping her locked in her ivory tower… You want to tell her "go! – be with your soul-mate. OK – you might not be able to eat lobster twice a week, but you and Guido will do fine. Yes – you will only have the kids every other week, but you two can frolic in the nude from Monday to Sunday in my parenting-weeks. Yes the friends might gossip but Guido is such a catch! They will love him!".
You remove all excuses… No, our kids won’t be emotionally stunted, yes – we can both financially survive, yes – I will stop seeing your mom, and my parents probably won’t like you but surely that’s a low cost to be with your soul-mate…

Eventually you have your partner in front of you and they have no place to hang their excuses on. They can’t be saying "In another life I would have met Guido and we two would be riding white horses along the beach" because you gave them the option to live that fantasy… and all of a sudden the horses stank, riding makes you sore and the beach was cold and dirty.
Poof! Reality killed the fantasy!

There are other advantages. Once the OP (maybe especially the OM) has been confronted by their spouse and/or have the option of having their "soulmate" move in… the reality of the affair becomes crystal-clear.
When Guido has promised his wife the affair is over then there is no permit for an "alas my love, in another life… but the Evil Ogre threatens to take my kids/penion/Ferrari unless I succumb to his sexual needs".
This Guido will be telling the persistent OW (who has been told by her husband that she’s free to do what she wants, but not as his wife) that she was only a piece of ass to him. Rejection is a real turn-off and reality-maker. That OW who your husband thinks farts glimmer… she doesn’t want to ride along the beach into the sunset with him. The "soul partner" becomes a departed partner.

Being offered a clean and honorable path out of the miserable marriage, the bad sex, the lack of attention, the whatever excuse you might have… and then not accepting it… makes your reality a reality.
THAT is breaking the fantasy of the affair.

Later – maybe a year from today or a decade from today – your former WS can’t sigh and wish they were still with Guido or Claudia because the ONLY reason they aren’t was THEIR decision. You didn’t force their hand. The only reason YOU are there is because you want to be there.

BUT what happens when the affair ends? Do cheaters still see their AP in the same positive light? Do they still feel and believe AP is this amazing lover, partner, human being? Does that fantasy ever lift? If so, how does that even happen? How does one go from believing something so firmly that he was willing to risk everything to now thinking AP was not special after all?

My W doesn't read or post here any more, and she's working on stuff that is important to us and others now, so she won't be posting any time soon, but ...

I'm 99%+ sure that my W got out of her A because she stopped thinking about her ap and started realizing that she was fucking up her own life. She knew she had hurt ow and me, but her epiphany was something on the order of, 'I'm putting my own life and health at risk, and I want to live. I'm my own worst enemy, and I'm going to change.' She still thought of her ap as an amazing person, although I met her and I saw a person committed to seeing herself as a Victim in the Drama Triangle of life.

If you read the testimony of remorseful WSes, remorse starts to come when the WS realizes at a gut level that 'I have met the enemy, and they are me!' (Thanks, Walt Kelly.) The ap is no longer part of the real problem. The bonds between aps - and I agree that there are some sort of bonds between WS and ap - don't break down because the WS sees the negative qualities of the ap. The bonds break down when the WS sees their own issues and commits themself to resolving them.

Affairs aren't about aps. They are are about WSes. JMO, of course, but I'm not alone.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:41 PM, Monday, December 11th]

The bonds between aps - and I agree that there are some sort of bonds between WS and ap - don't break down because the WS sees the negative qualities of the ap. The bonds break down when the WS sees their own issues and commits themself to resolving them.

Affairs aren't about aps. They are are about WSes. JMO, of course, but I'm not alone.

I agree. And while it may seem comforting to some BSs when they say that (in one way or another) the AP turned into a pumpkin, I think security comes from a WS knowing that, pumpkin or not, the WS takes 100% responsibility for the A and makes the changes to become a safe partner.