SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You are also right that I am an old man.

I never said that we are old men. I am not too far behind you. At our age we have the same desires-needs as a 25 yo-perhaps more so, due to our greater appreciation for the fleeting nature of our time on this planet.

It sounds like this event has, very much like an affair, made you retrospectively reevaluate your entire marriage, all the rug swept issues, red flags and unmet needs that you have long adapted to?

Was it all bad, was it that bad, or are you looking back on it now through a distorted lens?

Was it bad, maybe not all bad, but bad enough to want something more with the remains of your life, and you can see that clearly now through the lens of this event?

These are the questions I would imagine asking myself in your situation. Actually, these were the very questions I asked myself after my wife’s betrayal.

But your wife has not betrayed you, at least not in the conventional sense (assuming there’s no EA). She’s actually been consistent in her behavior towards you, although increasingly more dismissive over the years. Could this be part of vicious cycle of sorts, in the same manner bedrooms die, in a cycle of subtle mutual emotional neglect?

Is it possible that she may yearn for the same things you are, with you? Have you asked her if she would like to take your relationship to a higher level of emotional intimacy and affection?

Or, has her attachment style changed since she was just 16 years old?

It’s frustrating, these are things that are ideally fleshed out in therapy, but she’s not willing to go to therapy with you. Does she realize what’s on the line if she continues to dismiss your concerns-needs? What is on the line?

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 6:55 AM, Monday, December 1st]

Lying, then dismissal, then anger - so typical of a WS. My wife tried the same BS, tried to convince me that I was overreacting.

"Only my wife knows the truth of all of this and she will take it to her grave. Her words not mine" - IMO your relationship cannot reconcile while your wife holds this position. A truly remorseful WS will do anything/everything to repair the damage he/she has done. It doesn't sound like your wife is remorseful in the least

I think she is standing her ground and banking on you letting her rug sweep the affair. Maybe it's time to make her uncomfortable. Schedule a consultation with a divorce attorney and let your wife know. How she reacts will tell you where you stand.

The way you have described your wife's behavior throughout your marriage reminded me of my ex-wife's behavior. My wife had an affair after five years of marriage, left with her AP, and divorced me two months later.

I've recently read two books about quiet BPD, and I recognized my ex-wife in every page. After three years post DD I found a hint of an explanation other than the obvious.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

Been with my H going on 50 yrs. My H betrayed me 43 yrs ago. He confessed 2 yrs ago, so I know how it feels to be blindsided after years of M.

My heart breaks for you. Your wife's reaction is very cruel.

Could it be shame?

My MIL immigrated as a young girl to the US from Norway. Large Christian family. Lots of daughters. Mom passed away when girls were in their teens. Two of the five sisters got pregnant as teens and sent away to have babies. Babies were adopted out. Daughters went back home. Secrets secured. MIL goes onto marry my FIL. Never tells him. Gets pregnant with my H year later and pretends it's her first birth. Has 2 more sons. 52 yrs later FIL dies secret is still safe. One day we find out about the baby from an aunt who had been contacted by said daughter. MIL is freaking out. (Turns out she had been meeting said daughter off and on for years). Her children quickly accepted the news and offered mom forgiveness and love. The reason I tell you this story is because of MIL's reaction. Instead of relief from the burden of deception and lies she ramped up into anger and rage. She was extremely defensive and actually quite mean. Still is. She shows signs of NPD and BPD.

It's ironic that both my H and my MIL chose to live their lives immersed in deception. Difference is my H chose confession, remorse and repair. My MIL dug her heels in shut us out. She's 86 and bitter.

You're in a tough spot. Unless she seeks help, you are left to with very few choices. 73 isn't ancient. :) Maybe separation and loving from a distance might be an option.

I think you need to have a one on one with your BIL. Secrets love the dark. Shine some light on this.

But your wife has not betrayed you, at least not in the conventional sense (assuming there’s no EA).

OP explicitly stated previously there *was* at least an EA with his wife and her "brother"……

Let me try to clarify the EA. As far as I know there was no PA. Typically, when a couple breaks up, contact ends or is significantly curtailed. In this case he got married but did not leave town. His and my wife’s contact continued unabated throughout all four of his marriages and ours. He and my wife have been close since he first came to live with her family. Early in our relationship he and his wife and us were together a lot. Even after we moved away my wife and he routinely talked on the phone. The atmosphere was always warm. What ever the romantic relationship was they parted amicably. There is no reality in which I will believe that the romantic relationship is not in the background of their sibling relationship. We have had less contact in recent years as we all get older but the contact never ended until he abruptly stopped communicating with any of the family in July about 6 weeks after I found the letters.

Two commenters suggested that I talk to the brother face to face. I have thought about that a lot. I had many opportunities to do that early on but avoided it because I held out hope that my wife would somehow relent and talk to me. That hasn’t and won’t happen. I came close on our last meeting in mid-July. The three of us were alone in the house loading boxes and they began to reminisce about events going on in their lives in high school and early college. My wife also wrote about some of those same events along side the sex in one of the letters. It was maddening. I almost asked about their relationship then but caught myself at the last second. The situation had all of the makings of an uncontrolled explosion.

I have decided to gently talk to him alone if he shows up at their father’s Christmas lunch at his assisted living home. That happens next week. I think I can talk about it now calmly.

I just re-read the questions RealityBlows asked this morning. I ask my self these same questions every single day. Was my marriage all bad? Absolutely not. The first few years were gangbusters. We had our first child after dancing until two in the morning. We held each other when we found out her older sister had been murdered. We were living 2200 miles away in Pittsburgh and could do nothing. We travel the country for 25 years on a motorcycle while raising our grand children. We were always better when we were on an adventure. Everything we own is paid for and we are financially secure in retirement.

As I said the early years were good. The next several years were tepid but busy. The last 30 years have been a spiral of increasing quietness and distance. I have always thought that if I could just get it right (whatever it is) things would be good again. Her reaction to the letters showed me that I may have never had a chance. Yes that is a distorted lens but it is the only one I have at this point. Of course some of this, maybe a lot of it, is on me but if she won’t talk to me we can’t fix it.

God I hope she wants this relationship as bad as I do but I see less of it as time goes on. Maybe after I have a conversation with her brother next week I will have a new bit of information that will drive us in a different direction. I am looking for anything that will change her view on therapy. I think we could work this out together.

if she won’t talk to me we can’t fix it

Just writing to encourage you to not lose sight of this simple truth. My ex was so conflict avoidant, we talked nothing thru. And to live in that, I began to convince myself that maybe, just maybe, talking things out wasn’t necessary. It was just one way of living.

Yeah, bullshit, you have to talk if you want to have relationships. If she won’t talk, you don’t have a marriage, you only have a contract.

Keeping long held secrets and deception in a relationship prevent intimacy. She can't open up and be vulnerable when there's this huge barrier blocking the way of her own creation.

I had always felt a slight disconnect in my M. I don't know how many times I would ask my H if he was happy. Or why he never seemed content. I wrote it off as that's just who he was. Now I understand through him confessing and finally opening up that it wasn't me. It was his own guilt and disgust from his betrayal and deception that influenced his thoughts and actions for the next 43 yrs. He thought he could bury it all and continue on, promising himself that he would never travel that path again. He claims he never cheated again, but the shame clung to him. It manifested into damaging behaviors. He threw himself into work (to avoid coming home), he drank (numb himself), He distanced himself from family and friends (I mean who could possibly love him), he was angry. Once he found the courage to tell me it was like a switch flipped. He has blossomed into this man I had always dreamt of. It's kind of sad at times when I think of all years he wasted carrying that weight.

Perhaps your wife is clutching onto her guilt and shame so tightly that she is unable to let go. The weight may be crushing her. It may not be about you.

Does she have close girlfriends? Sisters? Anyone she confides in that you can talk to? Do you trust your BIL? Will he listen and share or will he gang up on you?

Please continue to post. I felt quite isolated for a time, but all the advice and support from others on SI has truly helped me get through my mess. Perhaps we can help you.

I will say that divorce does not sound like a reasonable option but living your life as you want is. Find things to do without her and build a life that does not include her in what you do. Whether it’s fishing, becoming a gym rat, collecting stamps, going to concerts, learning to play guitar, taking a cruise, visiting another country, volunteering at the food bank, or just meeting with old friends. In short, she is never going to give, and you can’t make her be reasonable. So just begin ending the process of letting her rule over your emotional well being.

The relationship ending before you got together is not a lot different from many relationships. If the guy was a family friend and is still in the social circle this would be if not typical then at least not unheard of. I suspect that your wife is deeply ashamed because of the odd dynamics and that he was younger. Look at it this way. If a 17 year old boy was having sex with a fifteen year old girl who is taken in to protect her, the world would condemn the boy, no matter the protestations of love. So that’s my guess on what her reality is. She has no tools to unravel this so she pretends it’s nothing.

Also, the relationship ended for a reason. What was it? If it was her choice, then that is a good sign. If his, then she probably was carrying a torch for him for a long time, maybe now. You can’t make her feel differently after so many years.

So, get on with building a new life on your own terms. Don’t ask, don’t discuss, just do it. You will feel better just taking action.

Solo counseling seemed pointless because the problem is not me. The problem is us.

No, I think the problem is 100% you. Certainly, you are in 100% control of solving it. It may not be the solution you want, but there are solutions out there.

You stumbled onto a situation from before your relationship with your wife. You were the one that turned that situation into a problem. It is now yours to solve.

Does it really have to be a problem? What if you had read all those letters and then just held that knowledge and took it to your grave?

Here’s a question for you, how much do you use your wife as a mirror in which to see yourself? How much of your identity is attached to your marriage to her? I ask this because of your concern about whether your identity is Plan B or plan A, and your insistence that she is the one who will determine that, i.e. she determines your identity.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 4:09 PM, Tuesday, December 2nd]

I strongly recommend that you do not have this conversation with your brother-in-law at the Christmas lunch at the assisted living home. That is not a gathering to air dirty laundry. If things go south you will be blamed for bringing it up at that time. Call him and simply say I want to get together with you to talk and see what he says

Well, SI often has a historical reputation for being too "pro-R", and some of the HORRIBLE advice on here justifies this. Seriously, I wonder if we are all reading the same thread! To give the Clif notes: OP's marriage has been bad for a while, with a wife who is disengaged at best. Then this past year OP discovered something that made him seriously question his life after all these years due to his WW hiding something from him with BIL ('so the person sitting across from me at Thanksgiving, Christmas, and other family occasions all this time and all these years, *at least *was** my wife's lover and all this time they knew it but I didn't. And what is worse, she seem to loved him more passionately than I ever have by my own wife.') Not only that there is a real and fair concern that WW's relationship with BIL may have continued--or was reignited--during OP's marriage. WW's response to OP's concerns has been extremely dismissive at best.

And some of you are encouraging him to stay and one is even telling him to rugsweep. Let's break down the most harmful posts on here.

cooley2here post #38:

My suggestions look anemic but they were made with idea of him easing into a life outside of his marriage one step at a time. And of course I mean no longer with his wife if he is looking for physical intimacy.

You don't ever get to "ease into" a divorce though, you have to pull the bandage off. OP will have to have a tough moment where he tells his wife that he does not see a path forward for their marriage. And then he will have to field questions from his kids and grandchildren about why, where he will then have to explain the events of the past 6 months.

It's either that or staying stuck in such an unhappy marriage.

RealityBlows post #41:

But your wife has not betrayed you, at least not in the conventional sense (assuming there’s no EA). She’s actually been consistent in her behavior towards you, although increasingly more dismissive over the years. Could this be part of vicious cycle of sorts, in the same manner bedrooms die, in a cycle of subtle mutual emotional neglect?

Is it possible that she may yearn for the same things you are, with you? Have you asked her if she would like to take your relationship to a higher level of emotional intimacy and affection?

I don't think we're reading the same thread here. OP's WW has been at best dismissive to OP after repeated attempts on his part to engaged with WW, this after some very understandable concern on the OP's part of an AFFAIR....and you are encouraging the OP do a Pick-Me Dance?

HouseOfPlane post #53:

No, I think the problem is 100% you. Certainly, you are in 100% control of solving it. It may not be the solution you want, but there are solutions out there.

You stumbled onto a situation from before your relationship with your wife. You were the one that turned that situation into a problem. It is now yours to solve.

Does it really have to be a problem? What if you had read all those letters and then just held that knowledge and took it to your grave?

Here’s a question for you, how much do you use your wife as a mirror in which to see yourself? How much of your identity is attached to your marriage to her? I ask this because of your concern about whether your identity is Plan B or plan A, and your insistence that she is the one who will determine that, i.e. she determines your identity.

This has to be the single WORST MOST ATROCIOUS bit of advice given here. EVER. It is that bad. So you're advocating the OP just RUGSWEEP all this to his grave? Good Grief!

And Last but Not Least: You better believe that after 50 years a lot of your identity **IS indeed** tied to your partner. The OP has some extremely tough days coming up. Does he spend the rest of his life stuck in a miserable marriage where who knows what other secrets WW and BIL are keeping from him, or does he go for D and go through *that* Valley Of Pain? (He will be much happier on the other side.)

OP, please read again what gr8tful, BluerThanBlue, and maybe a couple others on here said, and basically ignore the rest.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:21 PM, Tuesday, December 2nd]

Not naming previous lovers is not infidelity.

Having a marriage that wanes in passion is not infidelity.

Being dismissive avoidant and refusing to talk thru problems (guess what is coming next!) is not infidelity.

Even finding evidence of a greater passion for a previous partner is 👏🏽not👏🏽infidelity👏🏽

I think this case is unusual compared to what we typically see, while also having familiar aspects and some careful thoughts about it are warranted. I believe each of us has tried to bring our best to OP. He is free to take what he needs and leave the rest. The explicit invalidation of different view points is pretty 💩 if you ask me.

No, infidelity is putting ANOTHER MAN before your husband. This includes but is not limited to an EA or a PA. It also includes KEEPING RELEVANT SECRETS from your partner with another man. This is absolutely infidelity.

ETA: If you still are not convinced this meets your definition of infidelity, I say why doe it even matter. OP's wife is treating him w a level of disrespect that makes it impossible to continue.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:57 PM, Tuesday, December 2nd]

This has to be the single WORST MOST ATROCIOUS bit of advice given here. EVER. It is that bad. So you're advocating the OP just RUGSWEEP all this to his grave? Good Grief!

WTF? I am not advocating rug sweeping. What I am advocating is that he is actually in control. When I am not doing is telling him what to do like you are trying to do. It’s his life.

The letters contain everything he needs to know from his foster brother-in-law and his wife. They had an intimate relationship prior to him getting involved. Those are facts based on the letters. That’s enough information right there to decide whether you’re going to immediately divorce because you can’t live with that, or that there’s maybe a path to acceptance that possibly you can.

So what’s there to be gained by talking with the wife and the brother-in-law? Most of that information got thrown away into the trash bin with the unread letters. The goal in talking to the brother-in-law and the wife then would be for them to tell him what was in those unread letters. How much sense does that make?

Actually, I think he should take action based on his marriage TODAY, not on whether he was PLAN A or B 50 YEARS AGO.

I think him basing his future happiness on her hoped-for actions right now ("it is an us problem") when she has made it blindingly clear that she’s not going to deliver what he wants, is not going to work out well.

I think his solutions to his problem include divorce or accepting things as they are, which he controls 100%.

I think the OP ultimately wants a different past, that he wants his wife to tell him that the letters don’t say what they actually said. That is something he has zero control over.

Hangingon72. I will not call your wife derogatory names. I see no infidelity presented here. I do see a man who does not feel valued or appreciated in his current M situation and is searching for a way forward. I am more than half-decade older than you and married just as long. I can attest that there is much life to be lived at our ages. I agree with those who have advised you to confront your wife and express your feelings. You deserve to be loved and respected in your M. Always value yourself. Good luck.

If you still are not convinced this meets your definition of infidelity, I say why doe it even matter. OP's wife is treating him w a level of disrespect that makes it impossible to continue.

I’ve stated that I think it’s murky and what OP believes about it is what matters. But I’m not going to try to tell him what to think.

I’ve also stated multiple times that her unwillingness to talk is terrible.

You told him to ignore me (and others) who are less hard line. OP, I recommend you make up your own mind.

I did not stumble onto this site I researched it and others before I signed up. I picked this one because it has far fewer crazies on it than the others.

I have not been disappointed. I have gotten information I can use and some that I can’t. Y’all have said things that comforted me and things that pissed me off. On the whole, much of what you have said I needed to hear.

In my sphere the only people I talk to are my wife, my kids and my wife’s sister and husband. I can’t talk to any of them about this.
In addition my short journey into counseling in this region told that there are more crap counselors out there than good ones. I had nowhere else to go.

I have no idea yet where I am going with all of this. All I know is that I can’t stay on the road I am on now. Y’all have helped me more than you can possibly know. I appreciate your help.