SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All sensible thoughts.

While I don't think you can truly get it, you could imagine a lot of the hurt a BS would feel if you had an ounce of empathy. The lack of it from WS at the time is crushing (but then she might not have done what she did).

I think the argument was worrying but I told her I expected my feelings to be validated not argued against. I can see her guilt and shame is going to fight against what is needed to R. I have shared with her a list of non negotiables which includes not Minimising my feelings. She had accepted so the next time this happens I will remind her of her choice to acceptas being a condition of us continuing next time something similar happens.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process.

A practice that sounds cheesy but was incredibly helpful to me was that my therapist had me write down my story and then change my name to my best buddy's name. The practice involved me "sending him emails" on what my recommendations were. The conditions were that I had to be truthful, I had to presume that my friend wouldn't be offended by anything that I said and that these messages were sent, in this scenario, via an encrypted channel that would guarantee we would be the only two to ever see the messages.

It was a rather empowering process

As in giving yourself advice? I'll try anything. Have been using got to "chat" to my wife and say nasty things I really shouldn't in real life.

I also did this to practice my 180 convo (she met all my demands so didn't have to 180)

WS is making efforts, I think she's grasping that the work is "a lot". She had a really good week of being supportive and then went a bit off the rails. She finds the yo-yoing really difficult.

I have no expectations of outcome at this point (I can't control it) and focus is on me and my process. I liked Bigger's earlier post around choice and will be bringing those ideas into future discussions. I might move over to the R forum because I'm moving more towards that than I am towards D, but I think keeping laser focused on healing is more productive than a soft commit on R.

For those wanting to highlight her behaviour was "poor" (or maybe use more colourful language / descriptions), please don't. I'm suffering enough and have can generate enough negative perspective on my own. It just makes me feel judged and that's not helpful for me rigt now.

I should qualify "going off the rails".

She told me that during the A she didn't think about the impact on me, how I would feel when I found out (in response to a question). I told her later (I became overwhelmed, she asked me what was wrong) that it was really hard to hear that.

Queue an argument from her about how I twisted her words, "of course I wasn't thinking about you, I pushed thoughts of you aside" and then quiet hostility the rest of the day. Honestly, I'm still confused what the fight was about. My feelings were hurt and she was upset I was upset?

We had a checkin last night and I shared that I felt my feelings were being invalidated. She listened, acknowledged her response wasn't great. We continued the check in.

I don't see this as a setback so much as the struggle on the ground. Neither she, nor I are going to have all the right words all the time.

Anyways, that was that detail if people were wondering.

You seem like a level headed guy. I know one of the problems I had that you mention here is the "yo yoing". To *her* it probably looks like you are having random outbursts. To *you* it feels like you are sad, angry, full of just stuff, and it bursts out at some point. I encourage you to not hold it in so long. It will provide your wife with a more consistent message that you are in anguish.

I know that doesn't really seem to make sense since you want a positive relationship, but that's sort of what she needs.

No stimulus, no action.

I think you have a good attitude towards R, and I basically always see it as a "soft commit". I'm almost 6 years in and have given myself permission to change my mind at any time. My wife broke the vows first, so in marriage 2.0 the only way I can operate from a place of fairness is if I inject uncertainty on my end. It doesn't have to be the same way she injected uncertainty, but I simply refuse to hold on to an assymetric level of commitment where I'm more committed than her. I'm sure others here will say you both need to be all in or whatever, but I'm just telling you where I'm at and how I'm doing R. Our marriage is basically one day at a time and if she wants out, I'm not gonna stop her and vice versa. Neither of us want out. At least not today.

I agree that cheaters don't think about their impact. It's this sort of necessary internal deceit for an otherwise not shitty person to do such a shitty thing. They need to make up a narrative about how their cheating is special, which is hilariously is part of the whole cliche showing just how run-of-the-mill their affair is. "I was unhappy" "We were divorced in my mind" "If you didn't never found out, it never would have hurt you." etc. All these lies are about them saying they are just doing this for themself and that other people aren't affected by their actions if the other people don't find out. Basically every WS has to spin up this internal deceit before they lie to you the first time. That's the thought process they should be working on to identify and interrupt.

Good luck with healing and good luck with your M and if you choose R good luck with that. You are allowed to stay in limbo as long as you want. I chose to not choose for some time myself.

Thanks This0is0Fine, sage advice! I have a checkin with her this evening and my level of anger is bubbling over (in a healthy way).

She is really stuck with what work she can do absent IC (MC asked us to hold off on that for now) but that isn't working for me. I don't want to have to give her homework but I feel that's what needs to happen. She is a smart lady so I don't see why this is so hard. I'm inching back to a 180 conversation. She needs to lift her game.

Listening and empathising isn't enough.

We all feel your frustration and I think that everyone here who echo that it is a valid feeling at this point.

Here’s the facts:
1. Your wife unilaterally ended the marriage
2. Your wife did so without letting you know
3. You are living with this person who had a previous version (or mask) which you identified as partner material
4. The above person also has legal ties to you, confusing the necessary emotional decisions.
5. You are unsure of if starting a new relationship with this person is the correct decision.
6. Her willingness to work for a new relationship is a factor in your decision.
7. Both of you have agency to walk at any time. There is no marriage to save. There is only a decision to get with this ‘new’ person to ‘date’ and maybe one day (re)marry.

You’re confused - that’s to be expected! You also made the decision to not expose (completely your decision) which makes this entire process extremely more confusing and risky. Chaos in the mind sucks huh? Makes you want to be one of those Buddhists who isolate themselves at the top of mountains.

I’m sorry your cheating spouse is not stepping up to the plate.

I have a differing opinion than many here at SI on the best way to proceed after DDAY. Now this is based on my experience but a number of other posters have provided the sane advice or suggestions.

First I did not know about SI until years after my H’s affair so I was operating on instinct. Just for context after his last mid life crisis affair he begged me to R and I did not want to. I planned to D him as soon as the holidays were over (3 weeks time).

To shut him up I told him if he wanted to R he was free to do that but I was not helping him. I made no demands or gave him guidance or support. He was in his own. He needed to prove to me that he changed and he would be someone I wanted to stay married to.

Honestly if they have enough brain cells to cheat, they have enough brain cells to figure out how to repair the damage the cheating created.

It’s NOT the job of the BS to tell the cheater to do X, Y and Z. Again it’s my opinion and honestly it doesn’t show that the cheater is COMMITTED to the marriage. It just is another way to avoid and deflect facing the issues.

Which I believe is why so many cheaters avoid counseling. Too painful or not really interested in facing issues or making changes or maybe not even invested in the marriage. Whatever the reason is, it doesn’t matter — what matters is that the cheater is willing to make changes and make amends for the affair.

Explaining your needs and expectations etc. is exhausting and sort of makes you the marriage police. Telling a grown adult things like "I need you to do this or that" is exhausting but often necessary. However if nothing changes and you are repeating yourself again and again, it may be time to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation.

Nothing will change unless you (the BS) change. And if things in your marriage or relationship don’t change and meet your expectations or needs, then you have to either accept the status quo OR end the marriage.

Hope this helps you.

I think 1stWife and I are rowing along the same river as far as what might work...
I talked about options...

I think you should explore that a bit more. No – not saying jump directly to divorce – but rather that you don’t assume reconciliation is what’s going to work.
I sometimes talk about getting out of infidelity as the destination, and that reconciliation and divorce are simply two paths that lead to the destination. Sometimes both paths are open, sometimes only one is. Sometimes... well... probably ALWAYS... there can be blockages and hinderances along one or both paths, and you might spend some time evaluating which path can clear and open up.

I suggested you make it clear to your wife that she has options. Basically – do the work or end the marriage.
I think YOU need to be clear that YOU have options, and that you are BOTH clear about your options – the options both have.

Your goal isn’t to reconcile. Not any more than it is to divorce. Your goal is that in some time – that can be 6 months, 12 months, 18 months – you get out of infidelity.

It’s not likely that you reach your goal – that is to be completely out of infidelity – for a very long time. I can share that I took about 15 years before I had the PTSD infidelity gifted me removed... some form of infidelity-sand-corns that I carried along all that time. But you can decide that 3, and then 6 months from now you are convinced that you are progressing at an acceptable pace along either path – R or D – towards Out Of Infidelity.

I think it can be powerful when you tell your wife something along the lines that YOU are getting out of infidelity. Your deepest desire is that she come along so that you can try reconciliation, but irrespective of her decision or progress YOU are getting out. As-is you are doing so while dealing with the obstructions on R-road, but D-avenue is running parallel for now, and that if you ever get the sense that the blockage ahead is too much to handle, you will be tempted to switch.
It’s her call if she is part of the blockage, part of creating the blockage or part of clearing the blockage. You don’t necessarily see it as your role to point out each stone or pothole because she can probably clear most of them on her own initiative.
It won’t hurt to have some list of what you need. Not necessarily direct detailed instructions. But I guess you would need:
Total accountability – basically anything and everything you ask be answered truthfully. Like if you ask if she met OM N times but it was N+2 you want the RIGHT answer. You need to make it clear that any truth shared now damages less than any secret or lie uncovered later on.
Conviction that she’s committed to the marriage – she can be accountable with the time, her social media, her emails, her phone, her finances... It’s not really yours to ask, but her to offer.
Her realization and acknowledgement that the ONLY reason you two are attempting to reconcile is HER wish to do so, as well as YOUR wish to do so. This is important because she can’t hide behind some "if only I could" or "if only I was free" fantasy. She can, and she can be free. It’s an open option for her, as it is for you.

I didn't reply at the time but I did find The1stWife and Bigger's posts helpful (all posts helpful really and all appreciated).

I am questioning MC, seems to think WS has no deep issues to work on. She was unhappy and feeling neglected and made a very poor choice. Better communication is the key apparently and being present with me in my pain. Pretty sure I need a different one.

Total BS.

I have said to WS very clearly that being present is necessary but not sufficient. I have said (along the lines of Bigger) that when I say what I need, it's her choice to do it or not do it, but it's what I feel I need. Her willingness is her choice. There has been some complaints of punishment which I have discounted (I'm asking she does things like "give me a list of articles you've read" or "watch these videos I send you").

Either way, my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself. I will tell her what I need to be good with WS but if she can't then that's her deal.

On my side, I continue to yoyo which is fine and normal. The panic attacks are mostly gone, but constant rumination and invasive thoughts. Am closing in on 120 days. Some days I'm a hot mess, some days am only a slightly droopy bar of chocolate.

Have been thinking a lot about moving into the guest bedroom. Have also started reading posts on the Divorce forum. Seems a happier place in some ways than the Reconciliation one.

We have good days but I worry that she'll gravitate to those (i.e. fake normal) and kind of ignore the bad. She still gets defensive but I expect that will continue for some time.

I feel like I mostly know *enough* about what went on... I'm not sure I need a full list of dates or anything. I almost think at this point that going back through the messages to find more questions would be pointless (i.e. I answered all my own questions anyways). I know how the story ends, who cares whether they smashed on a specific wednesday 3 years ago.

This sucks

I think it is frustrating when a WS does not figure out how to make progress because it implies a lack of commitment. However, if you are giving the idea of R a chance then I think you should consider a few things. Some people need direction, particularly on difficult challenges. Yes, the BS has more pain but the WS who has guilt and shame is also in pain and their path is also fraught with challenge. Ideally she should be able to figure out what to do but that is just too much for some WS. Particularly with the emotions involved and the fight flight response consistently activated. So if you are still open to potentially pursuing R in a committed fashion then I would ask you to consider:

Are you offering her enough feedback and guidance? She sounds like she needs it to be able to help you. Consider doing it via letters if one on one dialogue triggers her fight/flight response. Then follow up to answer questions and seek alignment after she absorbs the letter. Does that make sense?

Get her into IC with an infidelity specialist. Your MC sounds experienced and competent, what about him meeting her alone? Or referring you to a like minded colleague? I agree with all his cautions about IC with the wrong person but that doesn't mean you just avoid IC, does it? People with great shame and guilt will find it harder to process with their BS in the room. Your MC may be good but that dynamic may be limiting her growth, reflection and ownership.

You now know why I don't recommend MC right away. Many MCs doesn't have the qualifications to work with infidelity. They work on the relationship and communication. Your M didn't cheat - your WW did.

If you can, IC with a betrayal trauma specialist can be helpful. One saying is that the BS heals the BS the WS heals the WS. After that, then MC may be helpful.

Getting a good MC that will hold your WW's feet to the fire is a crap shoot, unfortunately. You should fire your MC. You can't drag an unwilling WS through R because you both need to be 100% all in.

Because I know others will come in hordes to bash your MC...
I think your MC is on to something... Just keep in mind it’s not the MC’s role to be your WW IC. An MC’s main task IMHO is to help a couple create methods to effectively communicate. Good communication is a combination of speaking – a lot of listening – and finding ways to resolve differences without either feeling like they lost – because if that happens then the communications become about winning more than results.

We have a hard time accepting words used to explain or justify why our spouse had an affair. Like calling it a "bad choice" sounds dismissive, sort-of like she chose a bad wine wine with the expensive steak - but frankly it’s the truth. It’s a better choice of words than the dreaded "it was a mistake", but maybe the least painful words would be "bad decision". What is probably missing is the realization of the enormity of that bad choice/decision and the possible consequences.

What is important to understand – what the MC needs to get across and your WW to acknowledge – is that WW made a conscious, thought-out decision to cheat. It wasn’t impulsive, it wasn’t a mistake. At any time in the process from initial flirting to eventually full-on affair there were stages where she could have decided otherwise. She had opportunities all along the way to decide otherwise, but at each stage she consciously decided to go a step further. It wasn’t a "bad choice" but a series of decisions. And no – none of the decisions were because there were issues in the marriage – that’s like saying "despite being diabetic I’m having another slice of cake because my car’s transmission is failing" – justifying a wrong decision by using unrelated issues.

I mentioned this way back on page 1 on this thread.
I have this comparison. It’s one I have used several times, and each time I wonder if it’s apt to do so. I think one of the more heinous crimes committed is rape. I’m not going to equate rape and infidelity. But the two things have some things in common... but want to elaborate here.

For one, the shame that the rape victims often experience is a lot like the shame we BS experience. Why did she cheat? What was I lacking? In what ways was OM better?
Then there is the sense of powerlessness. Just like a rape victim didn’t expect or ask to be raped, we didn’t ask or expect to be cheated on.
Then there is the plethora of excuses or reasons for the rape, often piled on the victim. Like what did you expect wearing that sexy dress, you lead him on, this was the third date and you did have the lobster and expensive wine, everyone knows that’s a dangerous part of town... Sort of like we are experiencing – we weren’t appreciative, not attentive, took them for granted...

If you grasp what I’m trying to share using the rape comparison: Ask your MC if he would ever expect a rape-victim to accept accountability for being raped, or for even having created the situation and conditions where she could be raped. Point out the similarities, and add the complexity of that YOU – the victim – are working at reconciling with HER – the person that did all this. How the healing from THAT needs to be part of the process, because otherwise all you will end up is good communications when divorcing.

my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself.

I am in disagreement on this statement. You need to fix yourself, she needs to fix herself, you BOTH need to fix the marriage.

For example: If she were to take action to improve your ability to trust her, then if YOU don’t take action to appreciate and maybe accept that trust then there isn’t any good in what she did. It’s a mutual process. For a marriage to work, BOTH need to work.

my mindset is very much that it is her job to fix the marriage and mine to fix myself.

I don't know why I said this, but will chalk up to a brainfart. What I meant is that I want her to lead the reconciliation rather than me to have to drag her along. Probably though it's something we need to walk hand and hand. Right now I think she wants R but wishes the work were easier.

An MC’s main task IMHO is to help a couple create methods to effectively communicate. Good communication is a combination of speaking – a lot of listening – and finding ways to resolve differences without either feeling like they lost

My frustration here is MC doesn't want WS to do IC because they might interfere or undermine the process. I feel this stops WS from properly understanding her "why" to any great depth and also to deal with things like "why did you CHOOSE" to be unfaithful and keep choosing again and again, from the first simple step past the boundary to each successive one (rather than why were you unhappy). I agree with the analogies you use and will share that with the MC esp. being good communciators while divorcing.

Does knowing her "why?" matter? I don't know. I'm grasping at straws in some ways. What can she do that will ever make things better?

I remain mindful that I am choosing to be here now. I can choose differently tomorrow, next week, etc. Having this agency helps, greatly.

Ideally she should be able to figure out what to do but that is just too much for some WS. Particularly with the emotions involved and the fight flight response consistently activated. So if you are still open to potentially pursuing R in a committed fashion then I would ask you to consider:

Are you offering her enough feedback and guidance? She sounds like she needs it to be able to help you. Consider doing it via letters if one on one dialogue triggers her fight/flight response. Then follow up to answer questions and seek alignment after she absorbs the letter. Does that make sense?

I want to resist this idea but I see some sense in it. She figured out how to do what she did, now she can't follow basic instructions. I have given her links and articles and videos. I've asked her to share what she's looked at. I have said "IF YOU WANT TO COMMUNICATE YOU ARE COMMMITTED TO R, DOING THIS WILL HELP ME". Still seems to fail to land, however, I found she created an Instragram (at my request) to view the videos I've been sending her. My hope is this will help her get it.

Fortunately I am stubborn and will not engage in pretend normal. I have a few timeframes in mind in terms of "off-ramp checkpoints".

- After family holiday in Jan

- At Dday + 1 year

- Dec 2027 (after eldest finishes highschool)

- Dec 2030 (after younger sons finish highschool)

I'm not saying that I will be "done" by any of those points, but for Jan and DDay+1year, are we making progress.

Done by Dec 2027 feels ambitious but I should be comfortable it's gone in the right direction.

Dec 2030 - I will be out of infidelity for the most part. I refuse to grow to be 75 and wish I'd left 25 years earlier.

Of course, R could derail at any point, so I'm open to that possibility also.

[This message edited by nrtd at 10:41 AM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

I want her to lead the reconciliation rather than me to have to drag her along

Spot on OP!! You are absolutely correct how she was plenty "smart" enough to get herself into this situation so she’s smart enough to learn and work her way out. If & when she becomes truly motivated to R, instead of just damage control which she seems to be doing now, she absolutely has the ability to research & take the lead on R. Consider telling her that if you haven’t already. She *should* quickly find that the MC’s advice to not start IC is insanely wrong. She *should* be defending you in MC, and owning all responsibility for her evil choices, patiently understanding the wicked rollercoaster SHE signed you up for, unwillingly.

I hope you continue to refuse to lead her through R. Those BS who do NEVER succeed, unless staying married at any cost is the goal. Glad to see it doesn’t seem to be with you.