SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think being mush-mouthed about marriage and vows is sufficient to open other paths to "R" that aren't generally endorsed here.

Something along the lines of "I allow for a little cheating now and then in our marriage because I don't expect romantic exclusivity".

OK, cool. But most people on this forum aren't going to endorse this Esther Perel-esque way of thinking. Monogamish. Monogamy-schmanagomy. Vows are flexible. Mush mouthed hemming and hawing about whether it's reasonable to expect anyone to not cheat.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 11:35 PM, Friday, December 6th]

Sisoon -- you wrote;

I think all BSes on SI think extra-M sex is 'wrong'. So what? People cheat. Dwelling on the right/wrong of infidelity is a trap - it keeps one in infidelity rather than healing. We have to play the cards we're dealt.

i am trying to parse this being written on an infidelity site. You equate three things (extra-marital sex, infidelity and cheating). You then state that dwelling on this keeps one in infidelity. Is your statement one of fact or one of opinion?

i would like to understand where you are coming from.

This is a really interesting, thought-provoking thread. I haven’t been around long enough or deeply involved enough to assess how much usage of this forum is connected is to the way posters express their opinions.

My first post here, or at least the first thread I started, was a question about how to reconcile when your spouse, like mine, still works with their AP. I had been completely blindsided by my husband’s affair, I was dealing with a lot of other difficult things, and this forum was the first place that I interacted with anyone other than my husband about the infidelity and betrayal I was experiencing.

I was in a low place. I didn’t know up from down, and I had no confidence in my own thought processes. If I remember correctly, at least a couple of posters expressed opinions as facts—I know someone said bluntly that there was no way my marriage was happy/good before the affair (I had said that it was), and there were some pretty categorical statements about the impossibility of reconciling if your spouse continues to work with the AP. I found those posts distressing and scary. But there were also more measured, gentle posts that helped me breathe a little, and overall I got an incredible amount of wisdom and perspective that was immensely helpful to me.

I think it’s important on some level to differentiate between opinion and fact, and I’m always going to place higher value on advice given by someone who understands that their experience doesn’t hold true for everyone. But it’s not a bad thing to examine your own situation in the light of collective wisdom, even if that collective wisdom is making you uncomfortable or defensive or scared. It was good for me to evaluate whether I was a genuine outlier to the collective wisdom that reconciliation is impossible/nearly impossible when your spouse still works with their AP, or whether I had my head in the sand. It was good for me to evaluate whether my marriage was truly happy, or whether that was a sham.

There are always going to be posts that I just ignore because they seem ridiculous or mean-spirited or are written by someone so blinded by their own experiences that they can’t conceive of someone else’s life going differently. But that’s a tiny minority. The rest of the time, I mostly find it interesting to read people’s opinions, even if I don’t share them or think they’re being way too categorical in them. And if a post makes me uncomfortable or defensive, I try to explore that a little and figure out why.

That’s a lot of rambling to say that I can’t account for other people’s experiences on this site, but I sure have found it helpful, thanks especially to many of you on this thread. (And others not on this thread too. I will forever be grateful to Tanner and Want2Be for their kindness and wise input when I first joined).

Thisissofine, I am not sure who you think has insinuated that vows and monogamy are flexible. I haven’t read that anywhere. And although I do/did find a lot of what Esther Pearl says helpful, I also didn’t get that opinion from her either. My takeaway from her aligns with my feelings and it’s that cheating is incredibly traumatic, but also unfortunately common in humans. I don’t think there is any real way to know an exact percentage of relationships that experience it, but all studies indicate it’s greater than 1/4 of them. She also points out the ridiculousness in that years ago society judged women who divorced due to infidelity and that now society judges those who stay. Like her, my opinion is infidelity brings the betrayed spouse to their knees in pain and that often it does break a marriage, but it doesn’t always. Like a business partner stealing from the bottom line doesn’t negate a business, my husband’s cheating didn’t negate my marriage. My mentally weak broken partner was a hurtful and F’up but I wasn’t and my marriage was as real then as it is now. It’s much healthier, connected, and happy now, but no more real. That is my opinion or "truth". I would never push that "truth" on another’s relationship as that is for them to decide. That is my entire reason behind this thread. One person’s values, feelings, beliefs, etc should not become some universal fact to push on another. I think the site does this often and like I said before, I know three people in real life I suggested this site to and they came once to read and never came back when they were told they had no marriage. That the entire thing was a lie and that their spouse was not remorseful and likely still cheating. They all three are still married and not one has discovered any indication that the affair was not over on D day. As for the validity of their marriage then and now and the success of their R, that’s not for me to decide. That is their reality, not mine. I just support their choices and respect them enough to believe they can chart their own life according to their needs and wants.

That all kind of leads me to another opinion here that I often find presented as fact….. that declaration that someone isn’t in "true R". Says who? If one is happy or comfortable in their marriage and what they get from it I personally think it’s asinine for anyone to decide it’s not true R. 🙄 Similar to marriages that I could look at and think"that culture wouldn’t be right for me, it works for them" The same is true for R couples.

Why are you so upset and angry about statements and opinions people have about relationships other than yours?

I have also never seen comments such as "You’re not in true R" and "your marriage is a sham" in positive posts by a BS; it’s almost always in situations where the BS is in distress and the information provided by the BS supports that conclusion.

If you post a thread and feel that the responses are unfair or unapplicable to your situation, calling out those comments and setting people straight makes sense. But it seems like you’re making the same mistake that you’re accusing others of making, which is projecting your experiences and your personal standards to every other BS.

In other words, if there’s advice or comments directed at other people that you are taking personally—such as "your marriage is a sham" or "you’re not in true R"— it’s worth looking inward and examining why.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:55 PM, Saturday, December 7th]

Bluerthanblue, I am not angry. This discussion was a continuation from another thread asking why people thought traffic on this site was low. It is of my opinion that these opinions pushed as "universal facts" by so many on this site is a reason why. Not angry at all. I stated earlier that as I am 6 years out now other peoples attempt to define my marriage and the validity of my R no longer affects me, but it certainly can to newbies still trying to survive. I’d ask why you think I am angry?

Almost everything I write is opinion.

I think all BSes on SI think extra-M sex is 'wrong'.

So what?

People cheat.

Dwelling on the right/wrong of infidelity is a trap - it keeps one in infidelity rather than healing.

We have to play the cards we're dealt.

i am trying to parse this being written on an infidelity site. You equate three things (extra-marital sex, infidelity and cheating). You then state that dwelling on this keeps one in infidelity. Is your statement one of fact or one of opinion?

Yes, I think 'cheating', 'infidelity', and 'extra-M sex' are equal in many ways, though extra-M sex is not the only way to cheat or be unfaithful.

I'd bet my 1st quoted sentence is a fact. The 2nd is rhetorical. The 3rd is fact. The 4th is opinion. The 5th is rhetorical and a fact.

At first, virtually all BSes 'dwell' on being betrayed. It's a trauma after all, and it's recent. At first, life is 'all A, all pain, all the time.'

As BSes heal, though, the betrayal is accepted an integrated into the BS's own life story. One triggers, but the triggers tend to become less intense and less frequent as time goes on, unless a new trauma occurs.

Some people don't heal, though. They take on the Victim role in a Drama Triangle. (If you're unfamiliar with that term, there's a lot available on the web.) They continue to dwell on being betrayed as if it has continued to occur. That's meant as an observation, not a criticism - it's easy to fall into DTs and hard to get out of them. That's what I mean by 'dwelling (on the A)' keeps one in infidelity.

Again, almost everything I write is opinion.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:50 PM, Saturday, December 7th]

Presenting something as a universal truth vs opinion doesn’t even rate in importance compared to delivery.

Your marriage is sham, your WS is still cheating, and you need to divorce immediately.

vs

In my opinion, your marriage is sham, your WS is still cheating, and you need to divorce immediately.

vs

I realized after the shock started to fade that my whole marriage was a sham, they broke their vows, the old marriage was dead and I needed to decide to end it or build a new one. Before you start thinking along those lines, you might want to pay attention to what your WS is doing as I suspect they might still be cheating on you. If they are, divorce is probably your quickest path to a happy life.

OTOSH

it’s that cheating is incredibly traumatic, but also unfortunately common in humans

Now that is a fact,

this thread brings to mind Harry Calahan

@hikingout post #19:

WBFA-

On the ws trusting the ap-

You are of course welcome to choose to believe what you want about that aspect. In reality, I am not sure it makes a huge difference either way.

Well, it absolutely does to me though. I think the BS needs to understand that the WS had a full real relationship with the AP, and anything else as far as I am concerned is minimizing. I mean, I allow that the DEPTH of the relationship is different depending on the instance--your affair from what you have written sounded more transactional. But there was still SOME sort of trust there. And plenty do leave for their APs even if the relationship does not end up working in the end.

Anyway, I just can't get past it.

@sisoon post #18:

** Member to Member **

I have some pretty strong memories, WBFA, that you have ignored some statements that don't fit your worldview. All we ever have from any member is a few words on an anonymous website forum; that's not a lot of evidence. Ignoring evidence is about the only way I can think of to be correct about human behavior 99% of the time, especially on something as variable as paths and timelines after infidelity. You keep saying you've been right 99% of the time. That's a fact. I'm skeptical. You should be, too. The last 2 sentences are opinions.

Can you give an example?

Am I right literally 99% of the time? I feel that those of us skeptical of R are right the overwhelming majority of the time. If you want to challenge the specific 99% figure though you may end up being correct.

Context is extremely important too. You have a BS putting up with subpar effort with his WS thinking he is actually getting somewhere in his efforts to R. In every instance I can remember, he really is not and in fact most of the time his WW is still in the affair.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:15 PM, Monday, December 9th]

WBFA- thanks for explaining. I respect it bothers you.

I think it’s hard to account for the magically delusional thinking one has in an affair. WebMD reports only 5-7 percent of affairs make it to marriage and of those 75 percent of them divorce. (I don’t know how accurate that is but most places you find statistics cite a low success rate of relationships born of affairs)

I believe the reason those relationships are generally doomed to fail is because there is no real foundation. Any investment into trust is nothing more than grooming and justifying a situation. And, ending up with someone that you are always going to be suspicious of because deep down you know if they will do it with you, they will do it to you.

I am not really arguing with you, I have learned you are steadfast in your beliefs but I felt I owed it as a response for other readers.

While no one will ever convince you people don’t trust their AP, I will never believe an affair is the same as a normal relationship between two people who are available to have it. Comparing the two is fruitless. Add to the fact, by cheating on your spouse you are not in a current mindset to have a true connected relationship with anyone including yourself.

I have talked to many ws over the years and I am going to say there is only 1-2 that the situation may not have been a transactional form of escapism. Escapism is magical, delusional thinking where you are projecting what you want to see onto the affair and the other person.

However, NONE OF THAT makes it any better, any more justified, or any less devastating to a bs. Betrayal is betrayal, and it just everyone a little differently- so if trust is your sticking point, I want to again affirm any sticking point is valid.

But I have had an affair and I know it’s possible not to even consider it that way if the other person is also married. I might have paused more on a single guy, because he would not have had as much to lose as I did. But when we both have stakes of our marriage, family, career, it’s a situation much easier to feel in control. You both have every reason to hide it, and no true reason to believe it will continue. I never thought much past the day (or hour) I was on.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:08 PM, Tuesday, December 10th]

@hikingout, I don't have anything to add at the moment but I do want to say that I really appreciate the respectful way you are putting everything.