SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Please dont think of me as an asshole for my views BSR. I really take notice when your name pops up on here. I got my daughter addicted to Monty Python and the holy grail. We actually went to go see a local play of spamalot.

Python rules!

I don't think you're an asshole at all. In fact, I appreciate that you are being honest with your xWW about the limitations of what you can feel for her in the aftermath of betrayal. Honestly, the moment that made me pull my head out of my ass was when I realized I was killing my BH's ability to feel vulnerable, not just to me, but to anyone. For some BS, that death is instantaneous. I am not a religious person, but I have given prayerful thanks to God that I was granted time to change myself and thereby divert him from that path.

Asshole behavior would be deliberately leading your WW on, pretending you could feel things you can't so you can get what you want from her. At least, to me, that's asshole behavior. I've seen it defended here in the past, on the grounds that a BS has every right to lie to/manipulate a person who lied to and manipulated them. I understand the logic, but I also believe that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. I don't think that's what you're doing here at all. I just think it's better to mourn and move on than to contemplate sharing a grave.

I believe that my ex has been punished enough. I mean I divorced her, she lost the relationship we had and the relationship she had with the kids. We are all rebuilding on a damaged foundation.
I dont mean to pry, but in regards to your relationship with your husband DDay 2, did it create intimacy issues between you and your husband. I think i remember the nitty gritty was already shared but not so much the emotional component of your affair until DDay 2.
Its weird that I am really worried about not being about to be intimate again. I think that is one reason why i want to try with her. I think part of the stress or awkwardness would not be present that would in a new relationship. My ex would understand why I might not be able to perform and a new lover might feel that I was inadequate or that I didnt find them attractive.

I agree with tush, and the more you write, the more I think you're letting fear drive you. I also think you're hard on yourself. My reco is to talk with your IC about the place of fear and having unrealistic expectations for yourself. Obviously, I could be wrong.

I am merely writing what I am capable of giving to her.

Ah ... well ... I'll accept that you may have written what you believe you're capable of at this moment. I'll suggest, hoever, that you don't know what the future will bring, and you don't know your full capabilities yet.

This could change over time.

This WILL change over time.

*****

I can never love her the way I did before.

I dont know that I could date my wife if she slept with another person.

I will never tell my ex that I am in love with her

I can never love her without thinking of how she hurt me

...she could never say that she loves me and expect me to believe it like I used to.

Since all Waywards are capable liars..

I felt since my wife didnt end her affair ( the AP ended things to be faithful to his new girlfriend) that I was disrespected due to her AP having more morals than my wife.

These are all common thought patterns for BSes.

I used to tell my W that I loved her a lot. I don't do that any more. It's not that I'm withholding. Rather, my gut tells me words don't matter as much as I thought they did. Actions count. I show love, but rarely talk about it. The biggest difference is that my W now takes love in.

One of my requirements for R was that she had to treat me better than she treated ow. 'Pining away' for me wasn't on the table, because we were together a lot, but I was not going to stay with her unless she damn well desired me and showed it. Any immaturity you find in that is immaterial.

I think it's true that the old version of love doesn't return. For me, and I think for my W, love is different. The A changed us. I can't help thinking, though, that time and aging make us different. 'Different' isn't necessarily an enemy. 'Different' may just be unavoidable.

My main point, though, is that these absolutes may seem permanent right now, but you can't predict the future - beyond knowing that your life will change.

*****

Your posts say to me you're still very much attached to your XW, and you haven't been willing or able to put that attachment aside. (Of course, I could be misreading your posts.) IMO, working together to rebuild an intimate - and that means a lot more than sexual - relationship might be a very good way to deal with your leftover feelings.

Testing the water may very well tell you exactly what you need to know to move on to true D or true R.

Don't try to control the outcome. Maybe D is better for you; maybe R is better. Make finding the optimal solution your goal, whichever it is.

*****

I get the fear over sexual performance. I had a bout of impotence when I was 50, before the blue pill was on the market. I felt awful about myself, especially because I was in a power struggle at work. (I won, but I had to pretend to do it. I had to keep reminding myself that sex was not business and that my opponents had no way of knowing about my inability to stay hard in bed.)

I recommend as strongly as I can that you take as much pressure off yourself as possible. Maybe you'll perform the way you want, maybe you won't. Maybe you won't get the chance to find out - maybe you or your XW will find the spark isn't there any more.

And if you don't perform well and your XW - or anyone else - doesn't handle it well, you'll have learned something very important. You're hurting; that impacts one's capabilities, but only temporarily.

Have some faith in yourself, bro. You're lovable, loving, and capable, and that's all that anyone can ask of you.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:07 PM, Wednesday, January 24th]

Hello Sisoon. Great to hear from you again. Im guessing that you have some background as a therapist or just a lot of Mrs.Sisoons professional acumen rubbed off on you. You are very eloquent in your responses. I dont want to sound racist or anything but I picture you as an wisened old Kung Fu Master who speaks softly but can kick peoples asses with chop sticks. Kind of a mix between Clint Eastwood and Jackie Chan. Please take that as the compliment I intend it to be. I love both actors. Kids have worn out my DVDs of both actors.
I will be seeing my therapist again in about 2 weeks. I plan on printing some of the talking points of this thread and sharing them with him to get his thoughts. I cant really express how much therapy has helped unpack alot of baggage I wasnt aware I was carrying. I know that I have wept more in the last 3 years than I had the previous 42 combined. Im sure that not unusual but My kids had never seen me cry until DDay. They didnt think I was capable. This was coming from someone who has bled, broken bones and had numerous surgeries. I never even wept when my father passed away.
Regarding the Love comment. I WANT to love again. The person I end up with deserves to BE loved. I am just not sure I am capable of saying the words again in that way. I was told "I love you" and it really has lost the meaning it once had. Im sure my ex meant it the moment she said it to me, but the actions hurt more than the words can ever erase.
Another poster in this thread saw a lot of Nevers in my thread. I think i am just as guilty in a way of throwing never around as people do the word love or hate.
I dont want to myself or anyone to feel "this is as good as it gets" regarding a relationship. I know I have more healing to do. Im not sure it ever stops. I tell my kids that even small progress is still progress.

My wife has been interested in giving things another try. I cant say I am not interested but I can never love her the way I did before. I dont think she expects it either.

This is a pretty low bar to enter back into the relationship. Only however if you truly believe it. That is something only you really know. I can tell you that one of the key reasons I left was that I was in this exact situation. After a year of being angry, I morphed into to just not truly caring about her wants and needs. Didn’t tell her I loved her, sex was for my pleasure not hers, she didn’t expect much either, but I think she thought that with times my feelings for her would return, but I knew deep down they never would.

The thing was that even if it was acceptable to her, I felt like total crap. You would think that having a doting stepford wife willing to do anything to make up for her actions is desirable, but the reality the more she tried, and the less I engaged, was not only not healthy for the relationship, but the fact I was half assed in it and though she didn’t complain, was devastating for me too. I knew I was hurting the woman I still had feelings for, but couldn’t reciprocate, made me feel like a monster. This was a key reason for me finally pulling the plug. After the initial devastation of the break up, I did feel much better as I felt we coukd both move on. Unfortunately she didn’t.

I agree with the thought that part of the reason for her to try to salvage, even under terrible conditions, , was to normalize the relationship and alleviate the damage she caused. If we were still together, it meant that while she still knew how wrong she was, but it wasn’t quite as bad as if we made it, that meant her actions didn’t cause as much damage as if those actions broke the marriage.

You need to decide if she truly wants you, or does she want her family back. And does she want to lessen the impact of her actions. You need to decide if you are willing to go all in. If not, I wouldn’t go back. Also, by not putting yourself out there, you don’t really know how you might feel about a new relationship without the tremendous pain might feel every time you look at her.

I will say what she did was horrific. Having an affair while you were in pre marriage counseling is mind boggling. She may have matured, but this was pretty evil. Can you truly forgive this.

To reiterate, a true giving relationship can’t be attained if one of partners is doing it out of convenience, which I get the feeling this is, won’t work.

The good news is there are women out there you can look at with purity. I have found love and am now very happy with my new partner. I look at her with love, rather than resentment. But again, only you can truly know

Thank you WWTL. You make some good points. They are things I plan on addressing with my ex before a relationship could begin. I agree with you that its a shitty situation. Not fair to either party. I dont want a stepford anything. I want a partner. I feel like when you get burned so bad that just the presence of heat is uncomfortable.
I cant imagine the situation you were in with attempting to reconcile. I know that if we do try that it will not be easy. Can I ask what might have helped your attempts? I remember you saying that you just couldnt get over the disrespect. I understand the anger and the feeling of futility in the effort of Reconciling.
When I ask about what could have helped, i mean, is there anything she could have done? Anything you feel now, looking back that might have made things work? When starting your reconciliation attempt what triggers did you experience and how did you handle them?
I am on several ADs and have an emergency Xanax dose but it makes me feel emotionless when I take it and I end up just wanting sleep. I havent experienced many triggers I think because we divorced and we never were intimate after DDay. if its not too personal, after you divorced. Did you have any issues in the bedroom with a new partner? I can imagine issues with your ex wife. How did you handle them and what might you have said to the new partner to put them at ease. kind of a "its not you, its me" conversation.

I dont mean to pry, but in regards to your relationship with your husband DDay 2, did it create intimacy issues between you and your husband. I think i remember the nitty gritty was already shared but not so much the emotional component of your affair until DDay 2.

We had hysterical bonding, so physical performance wasn't an issue, but mind movies often broke the mood.

No problem answering your questions. As to what she could have done, really not too much. The only thing might have been if she took the initiative to out herself to our kids and friends, but realistically I didn’t want that either as I was ashamed that what she did, and who she did it with was a reflection on me. So that probably would have caused problems too. I don’t know what it could have been, but if I saw she somehow suffered some kind of consequence other than "I’m in pain for the pain I caused you" which really meant nothing to me that might have helped. So reflecting on what I just wrote, I’m going to say she did pretty much everything she could. I got offered all her acts with him (disgusted me and wanted no part of it) hall pass which in my mind was just a way to level the playing field, and was over the top in trying to let me know what she was up to. In the end it really wouldn’t have mattered.

My triggers were everything. His handiwork was all over the house. Every light socket, high hat light, all the rooms he had her in was a constant reminder. And of course the sex. We truly had a really giving sex life. Fun, loving, and each trying to give each other pleasure. That all fell apart. Not to be too graphic, but oral with her was a big part. It happened almost every time. We both enjoyed it. After I found out I had done it within hours of him being inside her that was ruined. I tried once. Almost threw up in my mouth and went running to brush my teeth. Deep kissing was a trigger. I just never did it (again a big part of out relationship) she asked once if I will ever be able to do that and again I told her knowing I did that within hours of having his sperm in her mouth was all I could think about every time I tried.

I went the other way with new relationships, if you could call them that. Didn’t have much of an issue, but until my current girlfriend they were all transactional. I was lucky to have money so younger women were fine having sex after taking them to great restaurants, or trips they couldn’t afford on their own. Older divorcees same thing and I’m old enough and my mother taught me well enough to open doors and never let a woman pick up a check. After awful divorces this was an aphrodisiac. But I never became close to them. Still was too damaged, but did have some great sexual experiences.

I have a really giving relationship with my girlfriend now. The sad thing is it’s still not what I would have chosen. Hands down if my EX hadn’t cheated I would have given all those women and even my current girlfriend up for the life I thought we were heading to with kids getting married and eventually grand children. But she took that option away.

Just curious, with the input you have gotten here has that given you any guidance on which direction you want to go?

WWTL. It has been very eye opening and very scary to hear everyone. I plan on writing a letter or speech or whatever to share with her. I will share it here to get opinions on what I want to say and how to best express things. Hopefully I can get people’s help with it.

You just need to decide if she is truly the woman you want and can see yourself loving. And being happy with for the rest of your life. If so, you should go for it.

Like I said, I’m getting the feeling the greater appeal is the convenience of the relationship. You know her, like her enough, and see the benefits of having the family back together. Lots of marriages are fine with this. But there is more out there

I think I want to try to love her the way I did before. We may never be more than friends again. I dont know.

Here is my Speech (Letter?) for my ex wife.

E,
These last few years have been difficult, I know not just for me but for you as well. The both of us have suffered from the decisions we both made, you with your affair and me with the divorce. The rubble of all of this surrounds us. I know we have both entertained the idea of trying to rekindle our relationship. I want to try to love you again the way I did before all of this. I want to give us a chance but I am scared. I am scared that I cant give to you what you deserve in a partner. I am scared that your decisions will not allow me to get what I deserve in a partner. We have known each other most of our lives and we have so many memories together. Many of those memories are blemished but we still share them.
I dont know what the future hold for the two of us, whether we can be together and be happy or whether it is better to let the death of our marriage remain buried. I know that i would like to try at least.
I am going to list my concerns and maybe you can address them and whether they are unreasonable for you. I want to give you full disclosure that your answers may be too much for me to handle. I want you to be honest but I also dont want to waste either of ours time on attempting something that we are sure will fail.

I dont want this relationship to start if you feel like this is someway to atone for your affair. We divorced and that was a punishment, as well as changing the relationship you have with your children and both of our families. I dont want to be with you if this is some way to atone for your actions.

I am afraid that you will want more than I feel I can give. You deserve someone who can give you all the love you want. I dont know that I can give that to you. Like a broken cup, I cannot hold as much as I could before breaking but I will give you what I can. I cant see a way to love you right now that measures up to before 2020. That might change but right now I dont see it being possible.

I am not sure I can express to you how I feel. I dont think I will ever be able to say I am in love you again. This is unfair to you as you deserve to be told that. Much of what I feel will likely be unfair. I dont want you to feel that I am punishing you. I have forgiven you to the best of my ability. I would like to think that forgiving would get rid of the pain and heal my wounds but it does not.

I know it shouldnt matter but I must know if you have been intimate with someone else since our divorce. I shouldnt fault you for it but I have to know. I have not even held the hand of another or entertained the idea of a relationship until now. I am not sure I can attempt a relationship if you have. If we tried, I would need you to have an STD test before i could make a decision. This can be embarrassing for you and i understand if you dont want to answer or if this is too much for you to take.

There is also the question of my ability to have sex, not just with you but anyone. I am not sure I can perform, although I want to. Im not telling you this to make you feel guilty, or that you should want to help me with this. I want you to know that my life has changed and i dont know that it is possible to go back to who I was and what i was capable of before.

You know I have always tried to be honest with you. I expect you to be honest with me as well. I also ask for your patience as I am sure that I will doubt much of what you say. Our words should be backed up with actions and I dont want to be a detective or your warden. i don want you to feel like an excon with a lifetime of parole either with any bad choice leading to life in the slammer.

Lastly, and possibly most importantly. If this does not work out, or you decide this attempt is not worth it, then I feel we should no longer communicate unless it is about or kids. We may have an unhealthy attachment to each other. My therapist said we could be gravitating toward each other due to the shared experiences more than actual affection.

Regardless of how this goes, you will always be special to me. You are a great mother and a great person. I still believe that.

Please be honest with me and share your thoughts and concerns with me. Dont sugarcoat anything or decide for me what I can and cant handle, should or should not know.

I dont want you to feel like you have a stacked deck against you, even though you might. The chances of this working out are likely low but Im hopeful that if we give this a chance we can make this work.

**********************************

thoughts?

I can’t think of anything to add to this. Very good how you laid everything on the line with compassion. Very impressive.

WS here. I cheated on my ex-Wife. She caught me. We separated. After stalking me for awhile, she took me back. I cheated again. She got involved with a guy. But, she took me back. I went out one night with friends with a mixed group--no cheating on my part. But, it was the last straw for her. She divorced me, moved 2000 miles away, and married the guy. This was over a 4 year period.

I spent 1 year in a rebound relationship--mistake on my part because I cheated on her as well. I then spent the next 3 years single having sex with as many women as possible.

About 5 years after our divorce, she came back home to visit her family. She had a short lived marriage to the other guy. He couldn't live up to what she had with me. She looked me up while she was in town. I was living with my gf that became my future wife at the time. Ex and I went to lunch while she was back in town. She said she regretted pulling the trigger on our divorce. She should have given it more time. Looking back now, I think she wanted to rekindle things. It was for the best that she divorced me.

I recommend you stay divorced and go no contact with the ex. You can't go back and rekindle the past. The past is always there no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

[This message edited by atomic_mess at 8:51 PM, Thursday, January 25th]

That appears to be a heartfelt, sincere letter.

I would consider one or two small things.

1) do you need to say you are not sure if you can ever say I love you again? If you feel that way now meaning you are not there yet then ok. If you think you will never be able to again then why are you considering R at all?

2) "I am sure I will doubt much of what you will say" ... is that really how you feel? If so, again, why would you R? Or is it more like "be patient with me if I happen to be triggered from your A and it causes me to occasionally doubt something between us. I am still healing"

Agree with Trdd. If you truly want to try R, you need to open yourself up to the possibility of more and you need to keep the absolutist language to a minimum. It's one thing to say you feel a certain way now, it's another to say you will always feel that way. The latter boxes you in.

If you want to R, you are going to need to be willing to try.

Think the letter is good. If this is the direction you want to go, go for it. Without a doubt, I am 100% sure she will accept all of your terms. There is no downside for her on that. If later she can’t take the fact you may not be all in, she can cut the cord.

The only thing I might put in is how you intend to go about this. My suggestion is to add that you want to take it slow and see how your feelings develop. I wouldn’t jump to having her move in, or restart your marriage as it was. Date for a while and see how it goes. You have waited this long, look at this as a courtship rather than you all of a sudden jumping back to be a married.

Had my talk with my ex last night. Not quite sure what to think. I will write a response later today with what happened.

So, I dropped my son off at the mall for a movie and came home. My ex arrived at my house shortly after I got back. We sat down in the living room and I think we were both nervous. I told her I had something written so that my mind wouldnt be a mess, to please let me finish it and then we can over over it if she wants.

I read the letter (speech?) with a few changes that people recommended.
We were both crying during and after. She wanted to have the letter to read it.
She told me that she wants the second chance I am offering to her. She doesnt feel that she deserves it but she wants it. She doesnt like that I feel damaged so badly that I cant love the way I should. She said I am her best friend and hopes that she can help to repair what she broke at least better than what I have managed alone. She was saying that she loves me and has always loved me. She was stupid and wasnt thinking beyond herself.
She wants a partner too. She stated she deserved the divorce and can understand why I might feel that she would want this to hold on to what she lost and come out looking better.
Her family has told her many times how stupid what she did was and that she would be lucky to find someone half as good as I am. She cant say with 100% certainty that there is not a part that wants to atone but she truly wants to be the partner she should have been. She hates that our kids have to divide their time between us and that they must feel that they have to act differently around each of us.
She said that she will take 100% of what I can give to love her again and hope that the amount can grow over time. She understands that what she has done makes it hard to be optimistic.
She was not happy about me feeling like I dont think I can say "I love you" again to her. This is where things kind of go a bit south.
She says she understands what I am saying but questions if its because I would refuse to say it even if I truly fely that I love her or if I just couldnt be "in love" with her.
I explained that I do love her. I love who she is and what she is. She is a great mother and person. I am just not sure that I can "be" in love with her the way I was before. I would still die to protect her but I feel that what I feel is melancholy over what it should have been.
Regarding sex with others. No sex but she has had dates. Never progressed past a kiss on the cheek. No date lasted more than a few dates. The last one asked shy she was divorced and she was honest and said she cheated and regrets it everyday. She said her dates attitude changed right after and made the rest of the date very awkward. She has not been happy with the dating process.
She understands my fear regarding sex. Its important to me. She said she could live the rest of her life without sex. I wont lie that this upset me. I think she noticed my face and asked me what was wrong. I told her that I want to have sex, and to hear her say that she could live without it makes me feel awful. Partly because it was not just provided to her AP but also offered to him since he was not the aggressor. She started to cry and then I started to cry. She said something to the effect that she just means that she enjoys sex and wants sex but that she doesnt feel the need for sex. No sex wouldnt be a deal breaker for her. I told her that it would be a deal breaker for me.
She said she can understand me not believing everything she says. She said she has nothing to lose by telling the truth. She lost everything by lying and there is no gain for her to lie about anything. I explained that if we tried this that she needs to put protecting me above herself. I dont want her to feel that she cant make decisions without my input but that if the decision could impact me negatively that she should ask me or choose the safest for me.
She doesnt want to feel like she has to walk on eggshells. I told her I dont want that either. She hopes that this could work out for us because she cant imagine not having me in her life. She doesnt want to not have contact with me if this fails. She understands the reason behind it but the idea of it upsets her.
She wants to do Counseling with me. She said it would be a good refresher on how to be a proper wife. I told her I wont marry her again. She wont be my wife. She cried again, which made me feel like an asshole. I told her that I want to make things as easy as possible. If things dont work out that we can have a quick break. I told her its not just about her but I wont ever marry again to anyone. She asked about rings and whether she could wear hers. I told her if she still has it she can do whatever she wants with it. To me its just jewelry and doesnt mean anything to me.
By this point it was getting late and I needed to head back to the mall so we started our good byes. She asked if we could kiss and I told her not yet because I am afraid it might lead to more and I was not sure I could handle it tonight. I told her I want to take things slow and that she needs to take things slow with me too. I dont want to rush into something that will blow up on us. She asked if a kiss on the cheek was okay. I said okay to that. I held her hand and walked her to her car. I told her that I would talk to her tomorrow (today) and she said she couldnt wait and left. I got my son and received a text from my ex (now maybe girlfriend?) that she was glad we talked and would like to try to do something this weekend, maybe brunch or something. I asked if this was a family brunch or a two of us brunch. She said whatever makes me more comfortable but that she would love to talk more about us. I told her that I hope she has a good night and she said she hope she is able to sleep at all. Her eyes are sore from all the crying and her face hurts from smiling. Said she looks hideous and really needs her beauty sleep now. I told her to take a pill to help her sleep and good night.

That is what I can remember. I am sure there is stuff that got lost in my brain. My problem is that I question some of the answers I got and my feelings. I question the dates thing and whether she had sex. I also question whether the remarks she made about sex being unimportant was said to try to make me feel better rather than what she actually felt.
I feel good that things went well but also bad that they went well. Almost like I wish she said to hell with you, this is bullshit and left.
I think I am just scared of this not working and hurting more down the line. Im not sure.
I would appreciate any feedback. If we meet for brunch this weekend, which I am pretty sure we will. Does anyone have any question they think I should ask or say. I dont want to sound incompetant butI havent really had a date in a while and even though she is my ex, its still scary.

Anyone go on a date with an ex?

Perhaps you hit the nail on the head when you identified you are scared. Not just of a date but of being hurt again and having allowed yourself to be hurt by trying again. It's embedded throughout your letter.

But we have to live life not just exist. Otherwise it's pointless. Of course we are at risk, in many ways of many things. But that's life, isn't it? Living is active, finding our value, connecting and yes, it's enduring stress, worry and suffering too.

It sounds like a very good conversation and, tbh, I was expecting she would react as she did. Her intent to R was there and so that prediction wasn't hard to make. Good for you for revealing your truth up front. However, my take is to put the letter and it's content aside now for a bit. Do not mention constraints, limits or fears this weekend. Instead, just connect. Be in the moment and look forward instead of back. She listened to you, now see what she actually heard. And see how you feel just being together. I know it's not fully possible to put the spectre of betrayal behind you but you divorced her. D was a marker of the old relationship ending. Consequences served. This weekend try to find something new.