SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This is my first time posting. I am just passed year two of... whatever you want to call my experience (let's just call it Recon, because fully committing to the word reconciliation doesn't feel honest or accurate). I am a BS, who has been in a 10-year relationship, half of it married, the other half getting my shit together so that I could feel good about getting married. The unmarried years were undoubtedly the highlight in my case, as I was young and silly and verifiably untraumatized. This site has given me a lot of perspective throughout the last two-years, but I feel I have reached a point where I need to actually utilize the wisdom provided with a major question that I have been struggling with. I am struggling with trust (obviously) but specifically due to the fact that I do not believe the story my WW has provided. My intuition, combined with intense defensiveness on the subject has made it impossible for me to believe. I believe parts of it sure, and logically I don't know shit, so I am in a limbo of sorts. I'm stuck. I feel an intense, even more than intense, an innate NEED to have full proof that I have all of the facts. I need verification in order to get unstuck here. I need to know everything so that I may have the necessary truth, and with it the reality, that is required to make the right decision, MY INFORMED DECISION moving forward. My question is around verification and the necessity of verification in relation to trust in this process. All wisdom shared on the topic is most graciously appreciated! I am very unhappy with where I am at and am even considering walking away but... I could really use some perspective on the matter. I refuse to make my future choices without the surest and purest of intent and... well I could use some support because I'm one stuck fella!

[This message edited by MrFella at 5:44 AM, Saturday, December 2nd]

Fella, I wish I had answers for you as I am right there with you. I'm closing in on 3 years post Dday and I too feel like my WW has withheld the full truth. I don't know why she can't just say it for crying out loud. This has left me on the fence about our future and like you, I don't want to make that huge decision without all the facts. I am, however, starting to realize that by her not being 100% honest with me, that perhaps I actually have the answers I need. I just "feel" like there's better to come, but that may just be my denial speaking here.

Obviously, your wife plays a significant role in recon.... whatever term you would like to use.

--Did you find out, or did she confess?
--Was there much lying and denying in the beginning?
--What efforts has she made in rebuilding the marriage?

Unfortunately, you will never KNOW exactly what transpired. No one does, unless they were physically there. The best chance of accepting what has occurred depends heavily on the actions of the betrayer. The rest has to come from us.

How would you describe your wife's actions and behaviors today?

Unfortunately, you will never KNOW exactly what transpired. No one does, unless they were physically there. The best chance of accepting what has occurred depends heavily on the actions of the betrayer. The rest has to come from us.

This is true. The only people who know EVERYTHING are the WS and the AP. Some people have contacted the AP (not that they should really be trusted either) but you really don’t want to invite them back into your life do you? "Verification" is not possible. For that you need irrefutable evidence. Not possible. The best you can hope for is trust.

I’m also not sure exactly what you are looking for in relation to "everything" (sex acts, positions, etc.)? Be careful with that.

At any rate, I am also one who has been denied what I consider "full disclosure". For me, there are "basics" I must have (# of APs, type of affair, how, when and why it started, when did it turn physical, how many times did you have sex, how, why and when did it end). Sounds simple? Not at all. My wife’s affairs (plural) were many years ago. I have to accept some of the information would be missing. I have a number of APs. I don’t trust it. I have general timelines. My wife can’t (or won’t) say for sure if her longest LTA was 6-8 months or 18-24 months. She can’t or won’t say for ANY of them "how, why and when (and who ended it) they ended". She essentially dated these men. I can provide this information for everyone I have ever dated (and that is 42+ years ago).

So what is "enough to decide". I have enough information to leave. I know she cheated multiple times over 20 years. Deal breaker stuff. I’m looking for information to make me want to stay and reconcile. The information itself is not as important as her willingness to provide it. If she doesn’t love me, trust me and care enough about the pain she has inflicted on me to give me what I need (in spite of her shame and guilt), I can’t trust her to be the partner I need. So the "lack of information" and unwillingness to provide it is "useful information to make an informed decision" in and of itself.

Welcome to SI, MrFella. Sorry you need it, but for those who do it’s a treasure.

It makes sense that you are stuck, you ask a really tough question. Trying to rebuild the level of trust needed to have a healthy M after in the aftermath of an A is really hard. I personally am about 18 months from D-day 1, about 6 months from D-day 2, it’s fair to say I’m not all the way there. But I have taken encouragement from hearing stories of people here who have done it, so I believe it’s possible.

A HUGE thing that stands out in your post is your wife’s defensiveness. I can tell you from first hand experience, that needs to go. There is a good chance it means she is still hiding things. Even if she isn’t (but she probably is), the defensiveness is activating this doubt in you, because who needs to get defensive if they are fully honest (she probably isn’t) and remorseful. Maybe it’s just shame manifesting in her, but that in itself is toxic and she would need to work on that. Whatever is standing in its way, non-defensiveness needs to show up.

I have set a requirement in my R journey to have "the full truth, to my satisfaction", and I’ve asked and asked because I haven’t been satisfied (like you describe), lies and defensiveness have almost ended us. But my wife has very recently entirely dropped the defensiveness, fully given me control of Q&A, and even disclosed entirely unverifiable information. I can’t tell you enough how trust building those things have been. It’s not "verification", as in pictures and texts and videos of everything that happened. But it is "validation", a different kind of proof that rests more on overall consistency and trust that does slowly come back with appropriate actions from the WS and time.

You can’t force your wife to do those things, but you can identify them as what you need for R and stand firm. You have to be willing to walk away if you don’t get them. If you’ve read here for two years, then you’ve read the stories of people who are still plagued by this stuff years and decades later. My lesson from that is time will not heal these wounds, it takes more than that. So take an active role in your healing, and don’t let your wife’s defensiveness keep holding you back.

I wish you nothing but the best, keep posting, there is a lot of wisdom here on this terrible subject.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 1:25 PM, Saturday, December 2nd]

Getting the whole story for many means your WW and her AP are not still sharing something unknown to you. It does give informed choice. It's perfectly fine to need the information and to demand it as a condition of R.

It will help if you share more about what you have tried to do, what's worked and what hasn't reference getting the information you need and the A in general. That way suggestions can be more soecific.

Her defensiveness shows she has not really done the work to become safe for the marriage or a good candidate for R.

Has she read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair? Have you shared with her, bluntly, that it isn't working and the lack of a detailed timeline and your questions answered is a significant part of the problem?

[This message edited by Trdd at 2:04 PM, Saturday, December 2nd]

It seems that you feel you haven’t gotten all the truth and you feel you need the truth to be able to move forward. Is there some fundamental aspect - that if it were to be true - would be a deal breaker? I understand the idea that trust must be based on the truth….but we all also know that having the truth is not foundational to trust (ie, as we all gave pre Dday). Trust is based in belief (a choice)…not truth itself.

So then, perhaps, the better question is why are you choosing not to trust your WW? (Seems much simpler now, huh?). Then the next question is - why are you trying to choose your WW’s truth over your own sense that she can’t be trusted? IF your WW is demonstrating truthfulness, why is your trust not growing organically? IS your WW demonstrating truthfulness? Is your trust growing - just not at the rate you would like? What exactly is going on?

We can talk all kinds of strategies…but they offer no real benefit if we/you don’t understand the core problem.

I see frequently where BSs struggle with trying to regain trust when the core issue is their WS is not demonstrating truthfulness. Maybe they’re still cheating - maybe they aren’t. But the issue that allowed the cheating to occur is still present - regardless of if they are acting on it. Damage that far exceeds anything from the affair itself happens when one chooses someone else’s truth over their own…and it’s an exercise in futility if the goal is to achieve trust. You absolutely cannot trust someone else if you cannot trust yourself.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 2:39 PM, Saturday, December 2nd]

I understand and share this same acute need that you describe. I am just over one year out and I am PLAGUED by the feeling of not having the whole truth. I am hoping someone will have some advice on how to deal with that feeling lingering even after you have gotten what the WW can/will give.

In my case I do believe I have as much of the truth as I can or ever will get about the A itself, since I got hold of all chats and read more than I ever wanted to know . However I struggle to trust that this is a onetime A and I am plagued by fear that some time years down the road I will find out that in fact there were multiple As and it was not a one-off f*ck up but a severe character flaw that I am dealing with here. I have found no evidence of multiple As, but since my WW did not confess but in fact denied and gaslighted me for months when I confronted him about believing he was having an A, I know that he will never volunteer any information. This has left me feeling like I need to act as if he is guilty until proven innocent. It's just a gut feeling I'm having trouble shaking, usually I trust my gut but I have dug DEEP this year to find any evidence to support this gut feeling, I have found none. There has been 0 TT. Still, this feeling will not leave me for some reason, and I believe all I can do now is decide that this is as good as it's gonna get, I just need to accept that. The question is how does one do that? (the other option would obviously be do decide to D over this but I have realised I am not willing to D over a vague fear).
Making the decision to draw a line at some point and decide we have enough to do that even though it's not the complete perfect truth, is just so hard.

MrFella, I agree with what Imachump said about the fact that her "unwillingness to provide" the information starts to become a greater burden than the actual lack of information. Especially in the situation you describe, where you have some but not all of the info. I was like that for 7 years. I had a bunch of info—sketchy secretary, refusing to get rid of her then does, reports she kissed him one time but he said no). It is embarrassing to write that because anyone here would have been like HellNo thats not true.

If you are in this situation then this big massive lump of untruth sits between you. You can’t get close. My husband finally gave me the truth after 7 years when things were "good". He felt "safe" in the relationship, we were sipping wine on a balcony and I just said "you were more into her than you said, huh?" And then the whole massive vomit of horror came spilling out all over me. He thought I would see that it was "not that bad…". Right.

The sad thing about your WS not giving you the full truth is that they actually remain unremorseful. After seeing what the truth did to me—which was total devastation(as it has been for most here)—he would never use the words "not that bad" again. He is being remolded by massive shame, guilt and now finally remorse. It is almost worth it, though I hesitate to ever say any of this is worth it. They truly can’t take responsibility until the truths out, its just not possible.

Who is the OM? I agree that more details of your specifics would help. I hear your wistfulness when you say " I was young and silly and verifiably untraumatized…". That is tough to hear. It is sad to think that this innocent person is completely gone, a huge part of yourself now just ashes. I mourn that playful, jokey, innocent girl I was as well. II believe it is possible you may get more information, maybe enough for you to restore your agency. You deserve that. Virtual hugs to you!

We can't know everything. Our WS is not an extension of our person. They're a separate person with their own agency. They make their own choices and have their own thoughts.

In the beginning stages of R, checking up on a formerly wayward spouse can serve as a tool for building new trust. At a certain point though, that same checking can become obsessional and toxic.

What I found in my own experience is that the one I most needed to trust was myself. I needed to know that I could handle whatever came my way. Making that kind of emotional investment in myself freed me up to simply enjoy my relationship, rather than relying on it for emotional safety.

As far as I know, the trust never comes back to what it was. But then again, we are no longer the naive innocents we once were either. You can't trust absolutely anything that has its own brain, right? Infidelity uncovers this kind of blind spot we had regarding other people, but once you SEE, you can't UNSEE. We can build new trust, but it's not going to be absolute.

I'm not gonna lie... it's scary. I think we all really need someone we can count on. I just decided that my reliable special person was going to be ME and that I was perfectly capable of loving and caring for myself.

We're born with this reflex to fear abandonment. It's what protects us when we're infants. The trouble is, we unwittingly carry that reflex forward into adulthood where it's no longer needed. Our partners aren't integral to our survival. That's just emotional programming which no longer serves our best interests. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

I recommend memorizing TooTrusting's post. If there are things you don't understand in it, ask questions.

I'll add:

I thought I got the essential truth on d-day. Months of interrogation told me I did get the truth. At 2.5 years out, I brought up my lack of trust in an MC session. Our MC shut me down - 'It's too early,' MC said. That's too early 2.5 years after getting the truth.

So your 'time since d-day' metric doesn't bother me. What does concern me is that you believe your W is holding back, and that makes R impossible.

What's your limit, your boundary? Will not coming clean cause you to D or S? How long are you willing to give her? Are you willing to tell her what your boundary is?

From d-day on, I told my W that revealing something now might make me walk, but my learning of something she could have revealed now but didn't would definitely cause me to walk. I thought that was effective. In actuality, it had no effect at all, because my W committed herself to being honest before she revealed her A. I don't think she's told a lie since d-day.

That's one way a remorseful WS acts. Contrast it with your W's behavior.

Do you have a written timeline? If o, that can be turned into questions for a poly - but I don't see doing a poly unless you'll D if she fails - and you'll D if she doesn't do a detailed TL. IMO, you need to make the consequences of not telling the truth worse than the consequences of withholding info.

Or skip the poly and use your strengths to figure out if she comes clean. Ask questions multiple times from multiple POVs and look for inconsistencies. Look for answer that show she is taking responsibility for effing up. Search the web for indicators that distinguish between truthful answers and lies.

Above all, remember that you can't force her to tell the truth and stay within the law. Note that even torture doesn't always get the truth.

What you can do is decide how you'll respond, whether she does or does not lie.

Does her lying really make a difference? Honesty from the WS is critical to R, IMO, but honesty from the WS doesn't mean the BS must offer R. Down deep, do you really want to D even if she tells the 'whole' truth? What will you do if she doesn't come clean? Will you D then?

What is keeping you together even though you believe she continues to lie?

MrFella,

Since you’ve been reading here a while, you must know the standard advice here, namely to:

1. Have your wife write out a *thourough* timeline of all of her actions (and I assume you want sexual details as well, so demand those), as well as her thoughts, who initiated what, everything.

2. You get a copy but she reads the complete timeline to you. Watch her while she does this.

3. Schedule a polygraph where she’s asked to verify the veracity of the written timeline, also whether she’s had any kind of sexual activity (this will be defined, including sexting) with anyone other than you and OM since you became exclusive.

So what were the results of the above?

First I have to say wow. So many meaningful replies. I am so gracious to you all. To know and feel that I am not alone, and that there are people out there who will take the time to empathize with a complete stranger. I feel so much less of a burden knowing this. Thank you all for your replies. It fills my heart with hope. I needed this. This actually feels like a step forward for me, I've been on the fence about committing for years and... I just appreciate the shit out of you all, as well as your replies. I have read them thoroughly and each comment was undeniably genuine, meaningful and helpful. I'm floored. I will make sure I pay it forward as a new (and proud) member of this community.

As far as my situation, I see that there are many who are facing the same personal internal battle. So as much as I really don't want to get in to it again (three therapists in two years, one IC and two MC) For the sake of healing and guidance for anyone in a similar boat... I suppose it's necessary to share a bit more about it.

I knew something was up for a while, but my wife wasn't necessarily clear about things. When it got too bad, I quit drinking and started working on me and us. Probably too little to late. This process was lonely as my wife was not on board. She was hanging with a friend group that included 2 younger men in their mid 20's. It was a redflag and all along I knew this was going to be a problem. They were into Ketamine and I was at home trying to fix things. Girls trips... God I feel silly typing this and it's going to take too long so...

One night my wife left for a weekend party with this friend group. My dog was dying, and I was committed to sobriety, so I stayed home. I didn't want her to go, I told her I didn't support it, but she was needing space and there was nothing I could do. Obviously, I knew shit was bad. Nothing was going to be ok. Prior to this, I am quite sure things were already going on, but she claims this was the one and only time, one night, the worst night of my life. She is an adult, I do not control her, I was powerless. That night she called me at 12 pm saying our 17 year old stepdaughter was outside. She was a tough kid and she didnt really like me that much at the time because I was firm with boundaries (I am a teacher). She said that our duaghter had called her crying, she had just been abused by her boyfriend and was scared to come inside because im a guy and she was scared. Of course, I was able to be supportive of my daughter, we had a good chat, I supported her and listened and she was receptive. I felt good about this. Until my dog started seizing... my 14 year old best friend dog from before our marriage. She had 11 seizures that night and, in the morning, I knew I had to say goodbye. I called my wife a few times, left messages, told her to come home as we needed to put the dog down. Nothing until 11 am. 15 minutes before I had to be at the vet. She said she couldnt make it because it snowed to much (she was in the mountains about 30 miles away at a friend's house (it snowed 2 inches, this was bullshit). I put my dog down with my supportive parents there, my wife lying to me to avoid it. That night, after all I had been through, after all her daughter had been through, she failed to come home, even though she was supposed to. She abandoned our family in a critical emergency.

After that night things got better, I was able to get WW to come to therapy and for a while we were more together. This also coincides with the alleged OP moving away as that party was his going away party. I knew something was up and I had been betrayed, but it took about 2 months of denying things until the truth started trickling.

My wife was still abandoning us to party at random. She was drunk every night, every day, she was suffering severely and numbing. It was sad to watch, she was a different person, she was broken and ignoring it. One night 2 months after the worst night of my life I decided to have a drink or two with my wife and the friend group. She was very drunk, but being nice and affectionate, but it felt weird. I straight up asked her on the ride home if she had ever cheated on me and she started struggling. pausing. She them admitted to an affair 8 years prior, when we had been dating for 3 months. I went to Quebec to visit friends and she went to south Dakota to visit a friend (these were plans made before we started dating) and she had cheated on me that new years eve. This was a hard thing to hear. I asked her if she had cheated on me recently... she struggled to answer the question but denied this. saying this was the only time.

I struggled with this information. I had a lot to process. I went to my parents house for a night to think. When I returned we talked and I decided that I needed more information. She got covid that week and we both had to stay home because of it (this was early pandemic). She was sick and stayed in the room and I took care of her. We didnt really have time to talk because of it. I did not want to get sick and miss time from work. When she felt better that friday, she came downstairs, we had a good talk and she had some drinks. She got pretty damn drunk, but things felt ok. Because of this I decided to take advantage. I said "look, that was a long time ago, I can forgive you, I think were going to be ok as long as this was the only time you cheated." She froze, drunkenly panicked. then confessed to cheating on me. wouldn't say with who, but drunkenly babbled about it happening at the house of a friend, who had nothing to do with any of this.

That next week in therapy she came in hot, told me it that she had a one-night stand with one of the boys from the friend group, wouldn't tell us when. Said it happened one time. That week she was a drunken mess and didn't make any sense. That Friday I almost left her, but we agreed that it was best if I went to live with my parents for a while, stayed together but took some space. Two months passed and I worked on me hard. Our MC turned into IC and I put in hard work. We stayed in contact and slowly started reconnecting and coming back together. We took a ski trip for a weekend and that is when she told me that the one-night stand happened on a girls trip in October. This caught me off guard, but the OP lived in Vermont and was close friends with her friends.. she went on the girls trip to and happened to be visiting his home during that week (He was kind of fat and ugly, so at the time, I wasnt worried... its weird). Anyhow because of this it seemed believable. I sort of believed it, but this was not what I had expected. Anyways, I moved back home and we got a new MC and started working on Recon...

Recon was tough, she was defensive every time I brought anything up. She kept wanting to go to party with a very toxic friend who knew everything and was involved in the cover up. There was no real work being done on her end. She got mad at me the weekend of this friend birthday for no reason and said she wanted a divorce. That Friday I came home late from a softball game to our Hungry kid asking where mom was. No one knew. Mom called me at 12 saying she was at friend's birthday party. WTF.. In June her toxic friends had bought her tickets to vegas. She almost broke up with me when she told me she was going to vegas. She was choosing this over me. We tried to work it out in therapy, but she was going to go. There was nothing I could do. Before she left, we had a long conversation about what I needed from her. Contact, to know what was going on at all times. Complete transparency. She agreed to this. I made it very clear all along that I was not okay with this trip. Anyways, on this trip, she was very drunk the entire time. She tried to contact me the first day, but in the background her friends were talking shit about me being insecure. She was mean to me, as if it was a chore. The next day she broke contact for 24 straight hours. Called me the next night packing, drunk as all hell and being very mean. They were doing cocaine. It was awful.

She came back like it was no big deal, but it was. She said she left her phone in the room. Our MC tried, but she denied and avoided and became defensive. Awful.

Then things started to change. MC got a little bit better. She stopped hanging with the friend. Completely eliminated the friend from her life. started doing some work, being a bit transparent... this is when the Recon started. This is the only reason why I have the first five letters. Things felt better. She went to visit a friend in Salt Lake... a good friend who I trust... sort of. Was totally transparent. When she returned, she broke down and told me that her "one-night-stand" had actually happened the night my dog died and that she was too ashamed to admit it. Thats great but at this point I'm completely baffled. I had been TT'd to death. This is where my problem originates from. The actual truth according to her, came out 9 months into recon last September after 9 months of TT and very shitty behavior. Since then, things have been steady, but I have been very open about not believing her. She continues to claim everything has come out. Swears by it. Swears on the lives of our new awesome wonderful dogs we adopted. I am not so sure though. She still has some issues with transparency, and it kills me every time. She gets defensive when she fails on the transparency expectation and says im being controlling. It chews me up inside and when I try to talk about it, I get a defensive gaslighter. It's not all bad. But it's not good enough. Henceforth the confusion. We are back in therapy after a big drunken fight where we both were mean to each other. It just builds up and kills me to the point where I explode because things are being rugswept. Admittedly its tough on her. She has not been able to show empathy towards me regarding my trauma and my experience. We have talked about it, and she doesn't quite know why. She says she is trying to figure it out. I am not sensing remorse. It's all really slowly killing me inside.

WHEW... that was abridged but damn. Hopefully this adds more perspective to the conversation. Thank you for taking the time to read it!

Thanks for sharing.

It does sound like your wife is still immature for a woman who I assume is in her thirties. Out partying with her 17 year old just out and about? Regularly drunk? Using legal...and I am assuming illegal...drugs to party?

The reason that you don't sense remorse is because you don't have remorse. May you get it over time? Possibly. It sounds like she is at least heading in the right direction. Has she stopped drinking to excess?

Here's the best news out of all of this--YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DECIDES WHEN, OR IF, YOU HAVE HAD ENOUGH. No one else can take that from you. Certainly, your wife can throw in the towel whenever she likes, but that is her choice. We are talking about you right now. Better yet, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer....as long as you are comfortable making the decision. 'Comfortable' is not really a word that sounds right, but you know what we mean---you dictate what you will and will not accept. Take strength in that.

It sounds like you would really like to reconcile. There is nothing wrong with that, but I do personally think that it is important that you also be realistic about possibly ending the marriage if it comes to that point. Many will not even consider that an option, and by that mindset, they make their chances to reconcile even that much harder....because they are NOT willing to walk away if their needs aren't being met. Reconciliation looks different to different people, but to me, after the discovery of infidelity, both partners need to get their heads on straight before they enter the process of reconciling. They have to both be all in. Just from what you have wrote, your wife isn't there. Can't have remorse without empathy, and she admits such. Her actions also scream 'not all in', because she is putting her comfort over your pain....pain that she caused. Until she shows some more contrition...and some more vulnerability, you are trying to skate uphill. You may get there, but is it worth the price?

I'm so sorry.

She's unremorseful, defensive,and still lying.

You need to decide if you can live with that.

I'm so sorry about your dog.

As a mother, I can't imagine not rushing home to my daughter, who had just been abused by her boyfriend.

She sounds like a lousy wife,and a lousy mother.

For the sake of clarity. We have both battled alcoholism throughout our lives. I think the clear issue here was that she found a "friend" who I truly feel was a sociopath. This friend was also very involved in illegal substances. She uses these substances to surround herself with people, influencing them with mind altering experiences, and she played a huge role in manipulating and puppeteering my WW in the situation. She was obsessed with "Best Friends" and girls' trips and would try to talk anyone who would listen into the benefits of illegal substances. She orchestrated the entire cover up and attempted to manipulate and lie to me through the process. This specific individual has a history of this sort of thing. Almost like a modern-day witch of sorts. All the nonsense faded away when my wife chose her family over this individual. It was an absolute fight on my end to pull her out, however. She is in a much much better place currently. The partying and random leaving is no longer a concern, and this has been consistent for over a year. She has been present in all aspects. It's not as if she isn't trying. Its cleaning up the damage that occurred through this period in her life, the shame, the guilt... That is the current struggle. I am an unfortunate victim of my WW giving in to the ideologies of someone with a cult leader like influence and tendencies. My WW was pulled away from reality, from me during these times and there are many periods of time in which I have been left with absolutely no information around what exactly my WW was up to. This does not in any way make me feel like my WW has an excuse. She made her choices, and they were terrible. I think she is really quite ashamed and does not want people to know what happened. If I was in her place I would struggle too. It was not a good look. This is what I am fighting externally and internally through my recovery process. She has shown a willingness to make changes, but I suffered the worst and most extreme consequences of her choices. Facing the damage, she caused me means facing herself. Providing me any extra information would disclose just how out of control she actually was, so she fights it. It has to be a shame response IMHO. This is clearly a marathon and I have been running steady with her, trying to guide this recon for two years. I obviously care about her, but the unknown in this situation is incredibly scary to me. Could potentially be enough for me to walk as anything was possible. That is why I can't seem to get past it. That is why I am wondering about the importance of verification.

Knowing shame, working with shame professionally as a Spec. Ed. Teacher at a group home for emotionally disturbed and abused children, it is very hard sometimes to tell the difference between intentional manipulation and one's self-defense mechanisms guarding against shame. It is a truly tough predicament on my end. JUST TODAY however, after reading everything on this thread and some major reflection I managed to figure out a way to talk to her and present her with my struggles, my needs. She listened, she responded, she understood, she did good. She agreed to allow our MC to provide her with IC as well. This is a step in the right direction. The insight I received from your wonderful people allowed me to fix some critical thinking errors and develop a better strategy. Of course, I am still concerned, scared, worried, stressed and TRAUMATIZED. I have a long uphill skate to get back to here, but now I know to bring my ice axe. Today has undeniably provided me some much-needed hope and a new perspective on working towards finding that -ciliation- to add to my recon. Every small win is worth celebrating in my case. Today was a better day than yesterday. This community is a godsend.

My husband and I married young, had children young. He traveled and cheated. I was told but chose not to confront because I had no way to provide for my kids. We both grew up. I have no idea if it was once or more. Years later I confronted and he was blindsided enough that he admitted to once. I never asked again. He never acted the way your ww has. He came home to us, played golf and often took the kids with him. He was always where he said he was. We simply moved on.

I write that because what I read was a ww who did not care that a daughter was in pain, that you were mourning the lose of your beloved dog. If she is very self centered she is not a good candidate for R. Our personalities begin a conception and with just minor tweaks by our caregivers we are set to who we will be. Those tweaks are important however. They are when our FOO gives us our morals. Occasionally a person is born sociopathic and no amount of good parenting is going to help. They are programmed that way. The rest of us can have clear boundaries or not. We can drive ourselves crazy trying to work out why our SO/spouse acts that way. What you need to do is look at how she is the rest of the time. Is she honest? Is she compassionate? Or is she selfish? Lots to think about before tying yourself into a pretzel.

CT gives such good advice regardless of gender. Make sure you are happy in your own skin. Make sure your decisions are fair but protective of yourself. Use common sense.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 4:02 AM, Sunday, December 3rd]

Good for you. I’m glad you’re a special ed teacher so you got this stuff. You seem to have had to be the strong one. You can do that to a certain extent but she will need to step up. Ask for what you need.

I totally get what you’re talking about.

I always felt that if I knew EVERYTHING about my WW’s affair, leaving nothing left for my wild imagination, I could then, THEN move on. I always felt like the frustrated obsessed detective haunted by an unsolved case gone cold.

"Recon" vs Reconciliation: R is a big gamble, an enormous investment of time and trust, a leap of faith, a high stakes, high risk play with a lot to lose. Before you commit, and as you would with any risky endeavor, you want to do your due diligence. You want to make as informed a decision as possible, you want to read the entire prospectus. We want to know exactly, EXACTLY what we’re being asked to reconcile and, someday, even forgive, but…

even if we got the full, fly on wall story, we wouldn’t believe it. Even if we were allowed to bear eye witness to the events, we’d still question what was going on in their head then, and what is going on in their head now.

So, we spend a lot of time doing recon while we’re reconciling. We take our first baby steps towards trust with much verification, then we begin to trust again, but verify, and then hopefully, someday, we can just blindly trust again.

I’m remarried and I’m still working on blind trust. Will I ever be so wonderfully naive again?

Even if you hit the Master Reset Switch and divorce and start with someone new, they too will have a past, a past that is as much a mystery as the details of your WS’s affair. They too will have an element of risk, an element of risk you can’t quantify, you can’t possibly quantify. Love will always be a risky endeavor, no matter how you cut it, but it comes with high rewards, some fleeting, some everlasting.

Do you take your chances and jump into R with a seemingly remorseful WS, or do you take your chances with a relative stranger in a new relationship, or do you play it completely safe and live like that guy in the Paul Simon song “I Am A Rock”?

Don’t live like a rock and don’t take chances with unremorseful waywards.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:11 AM, Sunday, December 3rd]

The reason that you don't sense remorse is because you don't have remorse.

If I was in her place I would struggle too.

At 2 years out, that struggle should have been worked through.

At 2 years out,she's still not transparent, still lying, still defensive. Still not remorseful.

It's common for BS to project hiw they would be feeling,onto their WS, and decide that's how they must be feeling. And it's simply not true.

You said you've been leading this attempt at reconciliation. You need to stop doing that. Give her your requirements, and them stop. She must do the work. At this point, you are dragging her through this attempt to reconcile. If she wants this, she needs to take the lead.