SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

There are already posts on this here but I have a specific question.

For context (and those that don't know my story), my WH's A created (allegedly since there has been no paternity test) an OC.

After I had processed some of this I informed WH that I would not stand in the way of him having a relationship with OC if that is what he wanted, but it could not be with me by his side. For me, I knew that I could not accept a daily reminder of the worst thing that had ever happened to me, perpetrated on purpose by the one person that was supposed to have my back and supposed to protect me no matter what. I did not see it as an ultimatum of "it's me or OC". However, this is exactly how WH saw it then, and sees it now. He flat out told me that I had given him an "ultimatum".

I know it might be semantics, but, it is grating on me that he feels this way when for me, I was simply trying to protect myself, and by extension, an innocent child. I know that I would never willfully hurt a child but I know that I could not completely hide my resentment. That would not be fair to me or the OC.

Is this something that I just need to let go of? To accept that it was an ultimatum? Or continue to feel as I do now, that it was a boundary I set for my own well being, health, and safety?

It was a firm boundary. Of he sees it as an ultimatum that is his issue.
I agree that it would be impossible to have an OC and a healthy relationship but I also think not managing or taking responsibility for a child that is line is impossible to consider.
However your H is a broken person and until he deals with issues and heals himself he will do broken things. He can call it whatever he wants. At the end of the day he made his bed and the options for sleep all suck for him. That's his consequence.

I had a whole post written out on the distinction between boundaries and ultimatums until I double-checked the user name... and then I literally LOL'd that your husband, of all people, is raising this argument.

Your WH can barely muster the emotional energy to be interested and involved in the children of his marriage with you. He wouldn't have any relationship with them at all if it weren't for you. He even admitted that if it weren't for your management of the relationship with the kids, he would probably die alone.

And yet he has the nerve to imply that you're unfairly impeding on his ability to have a relationship with his child with another woman by giving him an ultimatum?!

The best thing your WH could do for that kid, if he or she is his child, is send a check and stay away. In my opinion, it's probably easier to cope with being outright abandoned by a parent than to deal with the constant disappointment of an apathetic father that only makes an effort when he gets something out of it.

If I were you, I would say, "If OC is yours, go ahead and claim him or her. Let's see if OW does just as good a job as I've done at making excuses for your failings as a father."

You set a firm boundary and your WH in whining because he doesn't like it.

IMHO I get it - and don't blame you one iota.

He has a hard decision to make and loses the right to blame you. Actions have consequences and this one is a motherfucker. He can't have the best of both worlds with this one.

And if he "chooses" you he loses the right to resent you for having to make that decision.

I hope you/he have a good attorney. I would make no decision/arrangement without one.

Ultimatum: You have to do this, or else I will do that.
Boundary: If you do this, I will do that.

An ultimatum forces a decision (a forceful demand), whereas a boundary shows the consequences of a decision (personal limit).

Additionally, I'd like to point out that, in my view, this interpretation greatly oversimplifies the matter. I believe the real distinction lies in the origin of the boundary or ultimatum. If your goal is to compel someone else to fulfill your needs, it constitutes an ultimatum, regardless of how the message is conveyed. They are about exerting control or pressure on another person to meet your demands or needs.
Conversely, if it concerns your own limitations or inability to tolerate something, it's always a boundary. They are about self-care and defining what you are willing to accept or tolerate in your relationships and interactions.

[This message edited by Stich at 10:46 PM, Sunday, November 12th]

Bluer:

I'm at the movies so can't comment much rn. But, had to comment on this! IKR? Like, it was really difficult not to say that even if I had left he wouldn't have a relationship with OC. It would take a LOT more effort than what he has been willing to do with our kids.

I do have to say that I don't feel resentment from him, nor is he making me feel as if I was wrong for my "boundry". But, it makes me feel some type of way to have him tell me that I imposed an ultimatum and not a boundary. But I wanted to see if I'm seeing this from the wring perspective.

These are consequences, and no amount of complaining or blame shifting should penetrate your boundaries. He made this mess, he has to live with it.

The wayward hitting back with it is an ultimatum, when the betrayed presents boundaries is like a child throwing a tantrum who wants to have it his/her way.
Please maintain your boundaries and adjust if necessary for your health, safety and well-being. Not his.

An ultimatum is when you tell the other person what to do. That is controlling and an attempt to coerce the behaviour you want.

A boundary is what you decide to do for yourself, independent of any actions the other person takes. You aren't attempting to influence their choice; you have made a decision for your own mental health and safety and it's about YOU and not them. And you WILL stick to it- if you back down, then it truly was nothing more than an attempt to coerce the choice you wanted. Boundaries involve removing yourself- not consequences for the other person, not complaining, nothing even potentially manipulative.

So in your example? Unless you were trying to get WH to choose you instead of OC, there's 100% nothing wrong with what you said. You chose to set a boundary that you did not want to live a life where you had to actively engage with OC. Your WH could choose to be part of OC's life if he wished- he gets to make his own decisions. But those decisions are not free of collateral damage to others and you are well within your rights to choose to stay away from it.

To be perfectly fair? The only part that feels mildly coercive to me is when it would control WH's behaviour when he is not with you. I would think the healthiest boundary version would be that you didn't want to be involved in any way with OC and that WH would be responsible for keeping absolutely everything OC-related away from you. Because if he did that, then it should not be affecting you, right? Boundaries are for yourself, not for others. That being said I think it would be extraordinarily difficult for him to keep everything from spilling over so this is more of an academic point with this specific issue than with boundaries vs ultimatums in general.

It’s hard and even impossible to offer advice without placing one’s one values into the answer, so keep that in mind – I’m basing this on MY values and views, and they don’t have to reflect yours.

We could go into the difference between boundaries and ultimatums, but I don’t think he’s arguing with the correct terms. What you told him is a boundary: I (forunlau) do not want to be involved in the OC life.

Does that mean HE can’t be involved in the child’s life? If he sees it that way, then it might be an ultimatum: He needs to decide between you and that relationship and his relationship with the OC.

Personally – AND THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BY REFLECTING MY VALUES – I think parenthood demands accountability and that it would reflect badly on him as a moral being to refuse involvement in his child’s life. The level of involvement however can vary… Be it limited to financial, or if he wants the OC to be involved with his whole family. To me the basis is that the child should not suffer unreasonably due to the parents stupidity.

Now – If you and your husband could decide and BOTH be 100% in agreement on it that involvement might be as limited as a monthly CS check. Or it might be that there is visitation and the child becomes involved in his dad’s home. Or it might be adaption, prime-care or whatever. The extend however needs to be 100% agreed on between Mr and Mrs forunlau.

Does the OW need to be involved? Well… no… but it is undeniably better if she can be at the same Christmas recital, the same parent-teacher meetings and so on. Events that are about the kid and not the people that had the affair.

Forunlau – As a dad I would not accept my wife didn’t agree that my offspring wasn’t allowed to meet it’s siblings and/or be in my home. I would not think it possible to have a "good" marriage if such a key factor in my life was dismissed. BUT THAT’S ME – MY values. However if this was an OC I would have to respect my wife’s request that she not be involved around OW and that I wasn’t spending much time with OW.

Your boundary might be that you do not want any involvement with the OW for now. Like maybe until the kid reaches an age where it can independently visit with you. I think it’s near-impossible to keep OC a secret from siblings and it’s something that will eventually come out. It’s better that be done in conditions you can control to some extent.

HOWEVER – this is all moot until the child has been proven your husbands, as through a DNA test.

To use the boundaries and ultimatums:

In your shoes (and again – all I can share is how I would react) I would make the boundary very clear that you do not want to be involved with or around the OW, and that any interaction your husband might have with the OC needs to be removed from the OW to the best of the childs development and ability (like you can hardly remove a 6 month child from it’s mom for more time or distance than 2-5 minutes can change). That maybe with time and distance from OW the child can become an addition to your family in some way.

BUT…

I would also make the ULTIMATUM that before he subjects you and his family to this trauma, pain and financial obligation a DNA test is done to confirm paternity.

As with all ultimatums there needs to be a big enough stick to swing if he refuses, and that stick IMHO needs to be what to me is realistic: Without him willing to work towards a non-infidelity solution to the problem of the possible OC your marriage is doomed anyways. Might as well accept that NOW and move on.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:23 PM, Monday, November 13th]

For me, this is a very confusing statement, if it is not an ultimatum.

I informed WH that I would not stand in the way of him having a relationship with OC if that is what he wanted, but it could not be with me by his side.

I could interpret this two ways.

The first way I could interpret it is to hear you say, "It doesn't matter if you have a relationship with the child or not, I won't be here either way, the marriage is over."

The other way I could interpret it is, "I'm not staying with you if that child is going to be part of your life. If you want me to even consider staying, then a relationship with the OC is out of the question."

If what you meant was first interpretation, then I find it confusing because I'm not sure what his relationship with the child has to do with anything if that's the case. If you are leaving him no matter what, then his relationship (or lack thereof) with the OC is not pertinent nor germaine to the fact that you are leaving. You are leaving because he cheated, not because he may or may not have a relationship with the OC. Do you see what I mean? Why even mention it in the same sentence if it's not a precondition of some kind?

Imagine if your boss said to you, "Well, you can take a long lunch break if you like, but don't expect your job to be here when you get back". Does that mean you're fired? Or does it mean you're fired if you take a long lunch break? If he was just firing you, then why say something such as "Do what you want, but..."? He would just say, "You take too many long lunch breaks, you're fired".

If it's the second interpretation, then I don't see how it is anything but an ultimatum. If you are willing to stay if he doesn't have a relationship with the OC, and not willing to stay if he does, then that's pretty much the dictionary definition of an ultimatum.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to put any kind of judgment on your decision. You have every right to stay or not stay with him for whatever reasons you like. He could have avoided all of this by not having an affair. And even if it is an ultimatum, that's your right as well. He offered you an ultimatum by having an affair in the first place.

For your own peace of mind, I would suggest taking a closer look at what it is you really want, and what it is you are trying to say. To me, it sounds as if you are struggling with a profound amount of second-hand guilt over this child. On one hand, you know it is simply untenable to be in a relationship where you are forced to interact with a child because of your spouse's infidelity. That's unfair to you, and any other family members. At the same time, you also realize that, like it or not, this child is still a child and deserves the presence of their father in their life. There is no "right answer" here because someone gets hurt no matter what, hence the feelings of conflict or guilt.

I dunno. It does sound like an ultimatum to me. Sorry. I know that's not the most popular answer here. I don't think it needs to be an ultimatum however, I just think you need to decide whether to stay or not and not tie it, in any way, to his relationship with the child.

Last thing, in my mind:
A boundary does not have conditions. An ultimatum does.
Boundary: "I won't work at a job where I am demeaned".
Ultimatum: "I won't work at a job where I am demeaned unless I make at least a million dollars".

An ultimatum is an attempt to control another person's behavior by threatening behavior/actions of one's own.

A boundary expresses that the individual is free to choose their own behavior, but a consequence of some of their choices may be behaviors/choices from another person that they may not like.

In this case, I believe the OP is wholly free to set this boundary. Not many of us would want to live with an OC in our lives (however, I recognize the OC is the innocent in all of this).

I informed WH that I would not stand in the way of him having a relationship with OC if that is what he wanted, but it could not be with me by his side.

I could interpret this two ways.

The first way I could interpret it is to hear you say, "It doesn't matter if you have a relationship with the child or not, I won't be here either way, the marriage is over."

The other way I could interpret it is, "I'm not staying with you if that child is going to be part of your life. If you want me to even consider staying, then a relationship with the OC is out of the question."

I see a third interpretation:

Have a relationship with the OC if you want to, but I don't want to be around them.

Also, Stich clarified the differences well.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:45 PM, Monday, November 13th]

In the middle of something (family D&D, I'm DM'ing), so very little time to respond again. But wanted to touch base on some things and let everyone know that I am reading everything and taking it in.

All of our children know about OC, they were told in less than 2 months after DD1 because I had an anxiety attack from trying to act normal. I have also let them all know that if they want to reach out to learn about OC (even though there has been no paternity test done yet) they were well within their rights to do so, just keep me out of it.

My WH has not said that he wishes he could have a relationship with OC. I did try and press the paternity test in the beginning because I didn't want that hanging over our heads. But of course he knew better!

Also, I don't feel guilt about my decision, it was the right one for me. I do believe that the child is innocent and does deserve a willing participating parent. But, as I've said, WH was never willing to participate.

My boundary was just that, a boundary to keep me safe, knowing that I could never care for the child. This was a decision I had to make for my own safety, health, and peace of mind.

Honestly, I do appreciate every angle on this. I asked this question more for the fact that I don't really know why it upsets me so much that he thinks I gave him an ultimatum. I see it as, again, my boundary, and hard consequences of his actions. But should I just let it go? I'm not making a huge issue out of this, as I know that he would not have had contact with OC anyway, even if I had divorced him and left. But it still makes me feel a certain way to be looked at as someone who would throw out an ultimatum and try to control someone! Ugh.

Again, should I just let this one go? And try to move past it?

Not sure when you learned about an OC, at D-Day or later on. Perhaps you'd told him you'd commit to R prior to learning about a child? I know that would set any agreement I'd have made back to zero.

But every article or book on Boundaries I've read warns that when you set a boundary, you can expect some friction from those who didn't understand your need for such a boundary. That certainly has been the case in my life: the ones who push my boundaries never seem to like it when I've had to say "Enough" and I'd guess they would tend to consider a hard boundary more or less an ultimatum.

So in that sense, the OC and relationship with your WH is part of the negotiation process you are still in. Not sure the semantics matter, frankly, if your WH considers it an ultimatum, then maybe there is more work to be done in his 'empathy department' before you can R? Look at that aspect, instead of the words, and best to you.

Sounds like he is a shitty father to your shared children and is using this situation as a excuse to be a shitty father to OC.

Stop engaging which is all he wants. You have stated that he isn't a good dad to your shared children and that he wont see OC even if you divorce.

Him: You're the reason I can't be in OC life.

You: You are free to chose the relationships in which you engage...as am I.

Him: See that's a threat!

You further disengage from the conversation.

[This message edited by prissy4lyfe at 7:46 PM, Monday, November 13th]

You should be upset that he's trying to offload his burdens on you instead of taking responsibility for his own choices.

More importantly, it's clear that he's simply pissed off that you had the audacity to set a hard boundary with him and stick to it, even though he has no intention of being a father to OC.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:12 PM, Monday, November 13th]

You should be upset that he's trying to offload his burdens on you instead of taking responsibility for his own choices.

More importantly, it's clear that he's simply pissed off that you had the audacity to set a hard boundary with him and stick to it, even though he has no intention of being a father to OC.

THIS. He gets to be upset with you for blocking something he likely would never do in the first place. When this comes up years from now, he'll conveniently have you to blame.

Again, should I just let this one go? And try to move past it?

No, I wouldn't let it go. I'd get really friggin' clear with him and the whole family: H is free to have whatever relationship he chooses with the OC. I am not stopping him, but I will not be a part of it. It's up to him.

You didn't clarify if you meant that you would leave him if he has a relationship with the OC. If that's the case, it's both a boundary and an ultimatum, and that's fine. You can do that, and you don't have to feel guilty about it. It's your life and you get to choose what you will accept.

This is an interesting topic, and the view points are insightful. Issues like this I put into the context of the "new marriage".
It's a new agreement between my WH and me. I can also see the viewpoint of saying it's the same marriage, and that's true in other aspects.

As to the new marriage, I'm not ok in a marriage anymore with WH being friends with AP or old girlfriends or interacting in certain contexts that I would have been ok with before. Is that considered terms for a new marriage or my boundaries or an ultimatum? I don't care what it's called. The marriage would not exist if they weren't included. I would consider your viewpoint on an OC similar.

BS often say they have situations they couldn't tolerate with infidelity. I've learned here that only experience can tell what you will tolerate, but an OC sets up conflicting situations I can not resolve in my head hypothetically with a continued marriage. I feel for you. I would not be ok with interacting with an OC in any context or having any joint family resources put to their care. Mostly all resources in my marriage are joint. I would feel continual resentment.

The other major conflicting value I hold is that if my WS knowingly engaged in sex and created a child and refused to accept responsibility and do everythinng they could to care for it, I could not respect them.

How do you feel when your WH says it's an ultimatum? I think I would feel a flash of anger at being accused and him not taking responsibility for the situation he created and his decision to continue in the marriage. I might feel exasperation at him not thinking consequences through initially in the affair and then not thinking through the follow-on decisions. My reaction would be that he's not adult and responsible enough to be tied to legally and financially in any marriage.

Which brings up another topic - are you sure your half of marriage funds won't be held financially responsible for this child? Might a court decision be retroactive in terms of child support?

Hi Fournlau,

I'm so sorry for the murky, shit sandwich-filled waters you're having to navigate.
You mentioned D&D, and it seems like you've been given an ability check that needs + a lot. So here's my "bless" for what it's worth...

You've set a boundary (yep, not ultimatum), and now your WH gets to choose. But I agree with others like Bigger, that establishment of paternity is paramount. This is crucial for determining the degree of relationship legally required by your WH, which should at least clarify the picture to some degree.

It also sounds like you're worried about being "looked at" in a certain way...this one is a different ability check, but if it we're up to me, I'd grant ±30! I mean, it's hard to imagine much backlash for whatever you decide in the aftermath of your WH's actions.