SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello again. If interested, you can review previous posts for the full story.
In summary, WW had a long term EA with some physical violations with her ex-boss (AP#1) from 2017 to this year. She also had a short PA with a separate coworker (AP#2) in 2017. Disclosure has been sporadic with plenty of TT. After revealing the PA with AP#2, I started getting things together to separate and I have since moved out and been on my own for two weeks.
She has seemed remorseful, is reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts, enrolled in the recovery programs, seeing specialist therapists, ect.
But... she kept lying.
I was taking this time apart to figure out the viability of a future relationship with her and to build some confidence that I could make it on my own. We had a little contact and she was working on several prompts from her therapists and coursework, keeping me updated. She created and shared a document detailing all the lies and infidelities (even imaginary) that she had engaged in throughout our relationship.
I thought I had all the information, I didn't think there would be anything new. Well, turns out liars have a hard time stopping a well worn habit.
Maybe it's minutiae, maybe it's not. She claimed there was an event that happened between her and AP#1 in 2018. The night it happened she told me he 'tried' to kiss her. Part way through disclosure she said he landed the kiss, but she immediately pulled away. This document reveals that she knew he was going to kiss her, she went in and kissed him back briefly before shutting things down. Over the last few months I asked her several times about this kiss, what happened, 'did she kiss him back?'. She stuck to the 'he kissed me' answer without faltering. She, once again, looked me straight in the face and lied.
It's not the kissing itself that has broken things for me. The only thing keeping me considering 'R' was the idea that a person who realized they were broken and had fucked up would do everything in their power to make things right and redeem themselves. That every person is redeemable.
However, I made it EXTREMELY clear that no more lies would be tolerated. It was a boundary. If we're ever going to have a chance at working things out, the lies need to stop and we need to have complete transparency. She knew what was required, and kept lying anyway. She told me she had sex with someone else, but she kept lying about this? I extended trust once again, and was given the same lesson. I guess what they say is right, 'you receive the same lesson until it is learned'.
I feel calm. Sad, but calm. I'm starting to accept the fact that you can't have a healthy relationship with a deeply sick person. You can't trust a liar, even if you love them. I think in my heart I really wanted to 'put the past in the past' and move forward with forgiveness and love. But, I'm starting to realize that it's not the person who betrayed me in 2017 that I need to deal with, it's the sick person in 2023.
She says 'everything is out on the table', that I 'know everything now'. She says she's so sorry she didn't tell me sooner and that she sees how she messed up. I've heard this so many times before. I think she wants 'R' and that she wants to be a better and different person, she just keeps failing. It's sad. How many times can a person extend grace and be punished for it? I feel like I see her clearly for the first time in my life. Without infatuation, jealousy, desire, hatred, disgust, or love. She's broken, she's sick, and I hope she gets better, but it's not my problem and there's nothing I can do to fix her.
If I dive back into continued contact, fixing 'us', I feel like I know what to expect. I wanted us to work, but it feels like going down that road is just asking for more pain and enabling an addict. I don't know what else to do.
Is this the end?

Given what you wrote the best you can do is have her write out a completely detailed timeline of all her affairs and whatever else inappropriate behavior she engaged in.

Then take her for a polygraph where the major question would be are there significant omissions, minimizations or lies in the timeline.

She cheated for a larger part of your marriage than she was loyal to you.

No kids easy out, but give the polygraph a chance.

In the meanwhile did your inform the OMs' wives or SOs? If not get to work.

6 years is a long time to be around each other and not get physical, this is not believable.

I have the same situation. From 8 years ago. In my case my husband is the boss and the female AP tried to kiss him. Isn’t it interesting how everyone gets kissed but doesn’t start the kissing.

Anyway, silly though it may be I do actually believe him about this because of all the texts and emails I’ve seen of her pursuing him and then my husband ends up terminating her employment a couple months later.

But, much as I sort of believe I have the whole gist and he is telling the truth 90% of the time now, I just have never really believed he didn’t kiss back. It is sort of subjective to begin with… did your lips move at all? Did you close your eyes, etc etc. His claim has been she did the one try to kiss thing then she said "was that bad?" And he said it was okay. Then she did it again a week later and he kissed back and it was off to the races.

So in your story I am trying to understand. Are you saying that you now know from this document that she kissed back (I am assuming you mean using her tongue) and thus it became a brief make out session and then she stopped and left.

I fully get that this would be a knife wound.

I got TT for 8 years so I am the last person to give advice on how to handle it. Just don’t do what I did, LOL. The version I was told was she tried to kiss him and he basically just stood there and let it happen and then nothing ever happened further between them. I believed that for 7 years because he said it happened a few days before he fired her. So that made more sense. Turned out it happened 2.5 months earlier so it actually never made sense.

I’m glad you know a lot. They lie, then they lie, then they lie some more.

I would not be surprised if my husband actually kissed back the first time. I don’t think he could ever bring himself to tell me that. His whole defense is that she started it and he knows it would probably kill me at this point to reveal he was complicit from the very beginning. There would also be legal implications (sexual harassment) if he had been the one to kiss her. In some ways it was a little brave that your wife wrote this down. But I can totally get that with all the lying you might want to end it. Maybe go the timeline then polygraph route.

I’m just here to say ugh. It hurts so much. I’m so sorry.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 1:24 AM, Tuesday, October 17th]

servus:

Given what you wrote the best you can do is have her write out a completely detailed timeline of all her affairs and whatever else inappropriate behavior she engaged in.

Done.

Then take her for a polygraph where the major question would be are there significant omissions, minimizations or lies in the timeline.

Maybe I should do this, but at this point, I don't care anymore. I've searched for answers for the last seven months, begged and set expectations for honesty, was given promises, promises were broken, I'm tired. I feel like even with a polygraph I'll never get the whole truth. Even so, why would I want to be in a relationship with someone who won't tell me the truth, even when they've read and heard from me, therapists, podcasts, and coursework that lying is the worst thing you can do after initial disclosure? I feel like she wants to do the right thing, she's just incapable.

In the meanwhile did your inform the OMs' wives or SOs? If not get to work.

I tried to reach out to AP#1's wife, but no response through socials and email. I don't know if she received or ever read the information. I don't know what to do beyond that.
AP#2 was and remains single.

Stillconfused2022:
Sorry to hear about your similar story.
Yes, I only learned from this document that she kissed him back. I don't know about tongue and all that, it was more about the intention behind the events. The whole physical infidelity got kicked off with AP#2 before these events with a drunken kiss. This got very intense and ended up with her going back to his place to have sex. Maybe my logic is faulty, but it seems like if she had any remorse for the PA with AP#2, why would she ACTIVELY engage in similar behavior, this time completely sober? She didn't learn. Maybe if she had like it more it would have happened all over again. She was willing to take that chance.
Also, it's about the persistent lying. I know she eventually came clean, but I now know when questioned about anything that makes her uncomfortable, or look bad, her default is to lie. I can somehow believe that she could keep it in her pants going forward, but it's harder to believe I won't continue to be manipulated through deception. It's like she can't help herself.

Also, it's about the persistent lying. I know she eventually came clean, but I now know when questioned about anything that makes her uncomfortable, or look bad, her default is to lie. I can somehow believe that she could keep it in her pants going forward, but it's harder to believe I won't continue to be manipulated through deception. It's like she can't help herself.

I understand 100% where you are. I’m there too. D-day 1 for me was nearly 16 months ago. D-Day 2 (well it took 3 days to get through the TT and lies) was a month later. The minimizing continued for a couple of more months. Lying is my WW’s "factory setting". Even for stupid things.

We did a polygraph and she passed but I still know there are missing pieces. I can’t forgive what she won’t disclose.

My WW’s affairs were 19-38 years ago and "I don’t remember" or "I don’t know" are her go to answers. We had an agreement that any recovered memories or discoveries would be disclosed immediately. Two months ago while telling me about her IC session, my wife told me she had remembered her second AP’s last name, where he lived and the church near his house where they used to meet. She used this information to also find out he died 8 years ago. She had been sitting on this information for weeks. When I asked her why she hadn’t disclosed this info as agreed, she responded "it would have resulted in a long conversation and I didn’t want to do that". She then had the balls to say she was "proud of herself" for not continuing to hold that info back or lying and saying she just found it out.

So it is better for her to breach my trust and hurt me than to inconvenience herself. Self centered and wayward behavior. And she’s too stupid to even realize it. So she too is "keeping it in her pants" but it’s like she’s a "dry drunk". All the character flaws that allowed her to cheat are still there.

It’s the lying NOW not the cheating then that is driving me to divorce….

🤔…..33 years old, no kids…..hmmmmm, thinking, thinking…..RUN!!

You told her that if you caught her in more lies, it would be over… and each time you discovered more lies, you took her back. She has no reason to believe that you are going to follow through.

I think you were more than generous with her and gave her many opportunities to redeem herself, which she squandered. Furthermore, serial cheaters rarely, if ever, reform and become safe partners.

You’re a young man with no kids. There is no reason to waste your precious years waiting for the next knife in your back.

I was your age when my H had his first EA affair. I have come to suspect it was more than an EA but I have no proof so I have to accept I will never know the full truth.

And this was an EA I knew about from day 1 which he REFUSED to admit. This was in the 90s and before texting etc. but I knew it was happening. From the moment I met this "friend" of his I told him to watch his back.

The affair finally ended and was rugswept. Never mentioned.

Now it’s our 25th wedding anniversary and he’s been cheating. Typical midlife crisis affair and he wants a D. Sadly I had to call the OW to learn what was going on.

I’m 2 minutes I found out all I needed to know. I also learned my H approached her in a bar (I was led to believe she approached him).

If I knew back then WHO and WHAT my H really was, before we had kids, I would have D him. I would have avoided his second affair, his disrespect, his years of flirty behavior AND the disconnect in our parenting style.

And yes so many things revert back to the choices they make, cheating being an indicator of selfishness, inability to cope w/ stress or life, need for an ego boost, etc.

Take this for what it is. Please put yourself first and ask yourself where you see yourself in the future. I can tell you that every person I know who was cheated on by their BF/GF and then married the cheater, ended up being cheated on by their spouse.

At least 20 of my friends have all suffered at the hands of the cheater. Some did not find out about the cheating until after the marriage, but they all wish they had another chance to make a better choice and not marry the cheater.

Point is some cheaters will NEVER change. In your case I think you should really evaluate WHY you want to stay in this situation.

I can tell you on dday2 I kicked my H out, told him I was D him and did the very hard 180 on him. He pushed me to the edge and saw a side of me he wished he never encountered. I no longer “play nice” and I am no longer a doormat. I hold him accountable on everything and there are no second chances.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 5:50 PM, Tuesday, October 17th]

How are you doing, OP?

This was the undoing of my M as well. It was the constant lying then reoffending and lying again. It forced me to take a look at him as a person and it was that which ended my M. I no longer liked WHO he was as a person. He is also a narcissist (diagnosed) this also was a huge strike against him.