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Okay, well I made a list of the three things I needed

1. Deal with his health problems
2. Work on himself
3. Work on R

Items 2 & 3 are not observable, so you aren't prepared to figure out if he is or is not meeting the 'requirement'.

My reco is to think about the indicators that will tell you if he's doing enough of what you want. Then make the indicatprs the requirements.

WRT 2, what changes do you want to see in him> Are they realistic for a sick, autistic person?

WRT 3, my W worked on herself. That meant she didn't cater to me. I wanted her to work on the A. She and her therapist - who was also our MC - worked on the more basic motivations that enabled W's general screw-ups. She became less co-d, for example. I became OK with that, in part because I couldn't change it and in part because I am pretty well convinced that work on root causes is more effective, especially for the long term, than work on symptoms.

But W's work on R was indirect. I was OK with it, but would you be OK with indirect work?

*****

I'd agree that you're better off truly separated, except for the autism. Your H's autism is a wild card that I know very little about, so it's possible that engaging with your H now might pay off with a definite decision sooner rather than later - and it might make you more comfortable and more certain with your decision..

I know a lot about 'key performance indicators', though, so I'm pretty certain that identifying the observable changes will help you. If you know the behavior you're looking for, it's easier to perceive if he's doing it or not, and it's easier to discover whether he's doing enough for you to stay or go.

An autistic person can't do some of the things neuro-typicals can do, but that's not necessarily relevant to your decision. You are free to decide you don't want to deal with autistic behavior - but you'll make a better choice for yourself if you figure out what specific behaviors you will and will not accept.

What work? I don't think there should be any couple work until you've decided that he's done enough on his own to warrant attempting R.

I have a big list! He can do both simultaneously I think? I am not asking for huge revelations on theory of mind, but more some conversations I need.

Also, did you TELL him that you were going NC when he freaked out and called around to ask if you were okay? I know my recommendation was to tell him that you needed a short break and would be blocking him and/or turning off notifications for a set period of time. I'm wondering if you got a charge out of him looking for you, because I know I would have had I been in your shoes.

He called my family to ask if I was okay. I contacted him after that, which was my decision. I guess I could have told my sister to say "she says she's fine". So I guess I felt I wanted to talk to him.

Thanks Sisoon

WRT 2, what changes do you want to see in him> Are they realistic for a sick, autistic person?

Most urgent priority is I want him to understand his PTSD better and learn to relate it to some of his behavior and hopefully begin treatments for it. That would be really helpful for everyone. It was really obvious to everyone (including his doctor) that he had a complete nervous breakdown a few months after the end of the A and he was, until very recently, in total denial about that.

But the kind of PTSD he has is the kind you read about war veterans having. He can never, ever feel relaxed. He is always waiting for something bad to happen. He struggles with terrible flashbacks. He can't stand almost any noise. He gets really angry for no reason at all, at inanimate objects. This is, on it's own, a very big strain on a relationship even without the A!

He has struggled with understanding what's happening to him and why, and so I need to see him connect the dots with it. Yes, he is capable of doing that. He has already made great progress. As a family full of autistics we are used to certain adjustments around everyone's sensory things - but autism and PTSD are not the same thing, and he needs to get help.

I don't think it's a questions of realistic or not. Severe PTSD is no joke. It is also causing so much anxiety that he is in an almost permanent Lupus flare which is a truly horrible illness. The last six months before I left I would basically have classed him as disabled. So he just has to deal with it. He has to. It's that simple. He can't continue like this.

WRT 3, my W worked on herself. That meant she didn't cater to me. I wanted her to work on the A. She and her therapist - who was also our MC - worked on the more basic motivations that enabled W's general screw-ups. She became less co-d, for example. I became OK with that, in part because I couldn't change it and in part because I am pretty well convinced that work on root causes is more effective, especially for the long term, than work on symptoms.

But W's work on R was indirect. I was OK with it, but would you be OK with indirect work?

Yes. I honestly believe he is not the same person he was when he made the choices he did. I honestly believe he has already done a lot of "the work" internally, but he just hasn't shared it with me. I don't need huge changes in him as a person - I think those have been happening organically on their own.

What I need from him is:

a) Understanding on why he has to stop being defensive when we talk about things he finds shameful
b) Showing more empathy (even if it doesn't come naturally) when I am dealing with a trigger rather than jumping to shame
c) To be able to talk to him about everything that happened and ask any questions I have remaining without fear I will make him sick
d) For him to stop the self-loathing and start to like himself again

That's pretty much it. To be honest, his untreated PTSD and medical problems are probably the biggest problem. If I can see sensible, reasonable action to try and get better then I think there's a very good shot at R but he's been sitting on it and just getting sicker and sicker and sicker.

An autistic person can't do some of the things neuro-typicals can do, but that's not necessarily relevant to your decision. You are free to decide you don't want to deal with autistic behavior - but you'll make a better choice for yourself if you figure out what specific behaviors you will and will not accept.

I am an autistic Mother :) I love autistic behavior - it's one of the things I love best about him. It just makes complex emotional situations very hard and it means his tolerance for emotional strain or demands is a lot lower. Things need to be explained really directly, he doesn't get hints or suggestions. I know how to handle it, it just makes it a bit harder to get certain things like reassurance.

A neurotypical person can understand a subtle hint they are being asked for reassurance. They understand because they kind of imagine how the other person might feel. My WS can't do this very well. I need to literally spell it out. "I am feeling insecure or triggered about X and I need you to provide me with X please".

Otherwise he will kind of fumble in the dark and give me a hug or tell me I am beautiful because he can't intuit the words I need very easily. You can see how hard he is trying because he really panics that he is going to say the wrong thing and when he says something right and I acknowledge that he kind of makes a mental record so he knows what to do next time.

I know that probably sounds weird to people not used to living with autism (which is different in every person) but it's kind of endearing. My autistic loved ones are probably the most genuine, loving, kind people I know so I generally see "living with it" as a privilege :) Sorry, being mother there - mum pride :)

The thing is you know which direction you want to take right now which is to see if R is possible. So do things the way you want to and on your timetable. You will know in time. I know my situation is vastly different than yours but I kept trying R again and again and also experienced limbo due to be afraid to break my family up and you know what... it's ok. We have to do what is best for us and it takes whatever time it takes to make a decision. There is no right or wrong here.

Crazyblindsided, honestly, I felt so bad for so long. I was feeling like I had conversations I needed to have or things I wanted to talk about but felt like I couldn't because if I did he would react with anxiety and then get sicker. I think I was sucking everything down for years - and people have noted I have created many threads. It's all coming out of me like diarrhea! This feel good.

The thing is you know which direction you want to take right now which is to see if R is possible.

I do, but I am also prepared to let go of the M, which I wasn't up until the last few weeks.

So do things the way you want to and on your timetable. You will know in time. I know my situation is vastly different than yours but I kept trying R again and again and also experienced limbo due to be afraid to break my family up and you know what... it's ok.

I was like that for a very long time! I kept thinking, he will get better in a few weeks and then we can go somewhere for a few weeks and properly have time to talk about all the things on my mind. But we never did. He just got sicker. I don't regret my decisions but I can see it wasn't sustainable.

We have to do what is best for us and it takes whatever time it takes to make a decision. There is no right or wrong here

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This is the best advice. I know I definitely had to do all of this on my own timetable :)

What I need from him is:

a) Understanding on why he has to stop being defensive when we talk about things he finds shameful
b) Showing more empathy (even if it doesn't come naturally) when I am dealing with a trigger rather than jumping to shame
c) To be able to talk to him about everything that happened and ask any questions I have remaining without fear I will make him sick
d) For him to stop the self-loathing and start to like himself again

I can't help thinking that you'd be better off if you did some reframing.

For example, you're afraid your questions will make him sick, so - I believe but am not sure - you want him to change so you don't have that fear. It's your fear, though - your problem. You can do tough things even when you're scared. I think you'd be better of putting your fear aside and just asking your Qs.

I hated my W's defensiveness, so I have a lot of sympathy for your 1st desire. The thing is: it takes time to learn to not be defensive. You might try out prefacing questions with something like, 'I'm asking because I want honest answers, not to trap you.' If he gives you honest answers defensively and you don't trap him, maybe he'll learn to put aside his defensiveness. Maybe not, but it's worth a shot, IMO. I know it helped my W.

What kind of support do you want from him, especially when you trigger? If I don't give my W the support she wants, she tells me what she wants exactly, even asking me to say specific words. I don't understand why putting words in my mouth helps, but it helps her.

For me, support was coming close or withdrawing, depending on how I felt at the moment, so I asked for what I wanted explicitly - 'let me be', or 'give me a hug', or 'sit with me a while'....

Self-loathing is a big problem; solving it takes time, especially for a WS.

One of my requirements was for my W to do IC with one goal being 'to change from cheater to good partner'. She could have other goals, but that had to be one of them. I also demanded a release that allowed her IC to talk with me; she waived confidentiality. (Since her IC was also our MC, the release allowed the IC to bring anything from an individual session into an MC session. I never had to call our C to ask anything.)

By 'requirement' I really meant: if you don't do this, it's D. You might take that approach WRT your H' PTSD - effective therapy or D.

None of the above is meant as criticism. It's feedback and suggestions for your consideration. We all have to find our own path through this, and finding that path is trial, error, and course adjustment.

Thanks Sisoon

I can't help thinking that you'd be better off if you did some reframing.

For example, you're afraid your questions will make him sick, so - I believe but am not sure - you want him to change so you don't have that fear. It's your fear, though - your problem. You can do tough things even when you're scared. I think you'd be better of putting your fear aside and just asking your Qs.

I think the thing is, with Lupus, it's reality that stress causes problems. The real situation was that if I kept quiet, smiled, was happy then he would be relatively okay and feel better. If I needed a really tough conversation (like about his Why's) then the day afterwards he would wake up with rectal bleeding, almost unable to walk from pain and swelling. So it wasn't my fear - but a proven reality. Hence I stopped trying to talk and over time became resentful because I wasn't healing because I had not had the conversations I needed to feel better.

I hated my W's defensiveness, so I have a lot of sympathy for your 1st desire. The thing is: it takes time to learn to not be defensive. You might try out prefacing questions with something like, 'I'm asking because I want honest answers, not to trap you.' If he gives you honest answers defensively and you don't trap him, maybe he'll learn to put aside his defensiveness. Maybe not, but it's worth a shot, IMO. I know it helped my W.

Honestly, I did try this stuff. No matter how I said it, he would usually get defensive and that was getting much worse and not better over time. The first year he didn't do that, but then he had begun to escalate. So he might say things like whataboutery: "you hurt me too!" or self pity "I am a terrible person, you don't need to tell me anymore!". Then invariably the next day he would apologise for being defensive but the defensiveness would always turn what could have been a constructive conversation into an argument. I think he needs to figure out a way he can have conversations without doing that. Even if there's some ground rules. I am, for example, happy to write things down, or do it in a "safe space" like counselling if he can't handle those conversations without getting defensive.

What kind of support do you want from him, especially when you trigger? If I don't give my W the support she wants, she tells me what she wants exactly, even asking me to say specific words. I don't understand why putting words in my mouth helps, but it helps her.

For me, support was coming close or withdrawing, depending on how I felt at the moment, so I asked for what I wanted explicitly - 'let me be', or 'give me a hug', or 'sit with me a while'....

I'm not sure Sisoon. I need to think about it. A big one is that I need him to understand I will have triggers forever and it's not an insult to him or a sign he is irredeemable - it's just a consequence we both have to live with.

Self-loathing is a big problem; solving it takes time, especially for a WS.

I think

1. The self loathing would reduce a lot if he felt proud of putting 100% into R instead of complaining he was a terrible person.

2. The self loathing led to the A in the first place so I need it to change to feel fully safe.

None of the above is meant as criticism. It's feedback and suggestions for your consideration. We all have to find our own path through this, and finding that path is trial, error, and course adjustment.

Thank you so much, it's invaluable food for thought.

[This message edited by MintChocChip at 5:08 PM, Friday, September 29th]

I hope he has a doctor that demands he follow instructions because lupus is one scary damn disease. Second, if he is autistic, he’s on the low end of the spectrum for him to be able to be married. His autism, his illness, and just generally he seems to be riddled with anxiety. Can he take anti-anxiety medication? That to me would be the best place to start because untreated anxiety causes millions of different diseases, including a lots of autoimmune ones, such as lupus.

It appears as if you turned into his mother and his caregiver instead of his wife. I can see why you are worn out with this and expect him to do some growing up. My first suggestion, of course is to see a doctor about some medication for him. Even though there are things wrong with him you do not have to be there if you don’t want to be. You have paid your dues.

Cooley, he has been not following up with the doctors. So hence that's my #1 requirement: that he deals with his lupus and PTSD.

Of course I love him and care for him, he does the same for me if I'm sick, but I can't live with the impact of his illnesses if he doesn't deal with them responsibly.

You're exactly right, his Lupus started after the trauma of the A and is exacerbated by anxiety.

But if you have untreated PTSD then you have constant anxiety. So he just has to make changes.

If you have autism, you also have high levels of stress just from daily life. Noise, smells and so on.

My kids have been taught from a young age to be kind to their autism and to know when they are overloaded and learn to soothe and relax.

What he really needs is time off. He's entitled to a year's sick leave on full pay and I think he'd be very smart to take a month off and resolve his wellbeing.

He's extremely high functioning autistic, in a very high up job. It's just emotional things he has trouble with - as well as sensory.

I was pleased to find out today he saw his doctor 😀. I was also pleased He's joined yoga classes. This is the kind of positive self care I want to see.

I don't think there's potential or capacity to deal with R or with his own feelings unless he gets his health under control. So right now this is the most important change I need to see.