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Reconciliation :
Reasons for WS not making an effort in reconcilliation

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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 7:38 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

Hi Everyone,

I am currently working through my issues with a therapist, this is for me personally.

I posted here a little while ago, but really would like your input/experiences of why the WS does not make the effort required to mend the relationship..I realise that everyone is different, but in the last two years I have not seen much improvement to connect with me in an emotional or physical way.

The very act of betrayal that he did was going to another female to discuss his worries with rather than me, he says this is because he cannot open up to anyone who is close to him, another reason he has given is, feeling shame for his actions.

I understand it is just not possible to have a definite answer as to why he is not making an effort with the relationship, but interested to know if anyone else has experienced this too..

Appreciate your support

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800637
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BearlyBreathing ( member #55075) posted at 8:32 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

Coward? Afraid to face his own shortcomings? Cheaters are often leaky buckets of neediness of validation. But they put on the appearance of just the opposite. Having to sit down, dig up all their shortcomings and fears and faults will be painful, and will require them to face who they really are. Many (majority? Most?) just can’t face it. They have been a charade for so long that they can’t face being honest with themselves, you, their family, work, friends, etc. We often say that the first person a cheater lies to is themselves. This lying to themselves may be so deeply ingrained that they can’t fathom being any other way. Also, that pit of neediness — it won’t get fed. It takes hard work to learn to feed it themselves and plug those leaky holes. It is so much easier for them to just keep trying to fill it with external things like APs.

In the end, the why doesn’t matter so much as the fact that they aren’t doing the work. We usually don’t get to their whys because, again, they aren’t digging deep in their psyche and their FOO to get to the why.

Glad you are in IC. Work on acceptance of he is who he is and he will or won’t do the work— you cannot convince him to do it.

[This message edited by BearlyBreathing at 10:36 PM, Sunday, July 23rd]

Me: BS 57 (49 on d-day)Him: *who cares ;-) *. D-Day 8/15/2016 LTA. Kinda liking my new life :-)

**horrible typist, lots of edits to correct. :-/ **

posts: 6192   ·   registered: Sep. 10th, 2016   ·   location: Northern CA
id 8800641
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 8:54 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

BearlyBreathing,

Many thanks for your input, your response does not come as a surprise to me in all honesty.

His character is flawed in many ways I'm afraid (I do not say this in a cruel way) just realisation from many years spent together, Immature, inability to connect emotionally (except for in the beginning) manipulation tactics, etc etc. He even said he didn't realise that meeting up with a member of the opposite sex in secret was infidelity!

I am slowly coming to terms with the fact that I am needing to find myself again more than anything right now.

There is way more members here at SI that are more experienced in these matters and was just curious about the underlying inability to provide the work needed to make me feel safe again

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800643
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 9:45 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

He doesn’t care about you as much as you care about him and he isn’t fully invested in healing you or the marriage.

I tied my brain up in knots trying to figure out what was blocking my ex from putting in the work, until I was forced to accept the realization that the simplest explanation was the correct one.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 2113   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8800649
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 10:01 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

BluerThanBlue,

sincere thanks for your input and support, Yes, I am leaning towards this theory also, he simply cannot be bothered with any of it, I am truly done with the disrespect and him taking the victim stance every time I try to discuss anything that feels remotely uncomfortable to him...

The therapy is at least making me understand I need to move away from that and focus more on myself, I am not leaving the relationship right now, but I know that is a choice that is always open to me.

I am so very grateful to everyone here, for putting it all in perspective, for taking the time to help me through this..and more importantly, to help me realise, I am important too.

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800650
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 10:04 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

BluerThanBlue,

sincere thanks for your input and support, Yes, I am leaning towards this theory also, he simply cannot be bothered with any of it, I am truly done with the disrespect and him taking the victim stance every time I try to discuss anything that feels remotely uncomfortable to him...

The therapy is at least making me understand I need to move away from that and focus more on myself, I am not leaving the relationship right now, but I know that is a choice that is always open to me.

I am so very grateful to everyone here, for putting it all in perspective, for taking the time to help me through this..and more importantly, to help me realise, I am important too.

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800651
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DaddyDom ( member #56960) posted at 10:44 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

WS's are fundamentally broken people. For whatever reasons, and every story is unique, they lack the basic skills and norms of healthier individuals. Imagine the kind of person it takes to have an affair in the first place. They clearly do not love or respect themselves to begin with... people who have integrity and dignity don't lower themselves to such an act, they could barely conceive of it. They also lack the ability to "actually" love other people. Their love is transactional in nature, and it is measured by how others make them feel about themselves. They do not love themselves and so it makes them incapable of loving others. Most WS's also have a tendency towards addictive personalities as well. Some are obvious such as abusing drugs or alcohol, but others are more subtle, for example, having poor spending habits and developing ways to cover it up.

The real problem with WS's however is simply the fact that most WS's have absolutely no idea that anything at all is wrong with them, and are often just as shocked as everyone else to find themselves in an affair. Since WS's do not love themselves, they cannot bring themselves to face the things they are doing (you can't self-criticize when you have no self-respect to begin with) so their minds turn to justifications and excuses to try to alleviate the guilt and instead misdirect it towards their partners, or ignore it altogether. Not surprisingly, this exacerbates the problem exponentially. Someone who is incapable of self-love goes off and does something really horrible such as an affair, which in turn only makes them feel even shittier about themselves, which makes them hurt more inside, and so they go and look for another way to relieve that inner self-loathing... it becomes a vicious cycle of lying to themselves, then to others, and eventually, losing sight and understanding of what "the truth" is in the first place. It would be incredibly sad (and it is) if it weren't so damn toxic to everyone around them. If they were just alcoholics their loved ones would rally around them and have an intervention. But when you are busy lying to and betraying everyone in your life without owning that, and without remorse... well, you just killed off your only real support system.

Take it from a WS who has spent the last 7+ years struggling to crawl out of that pit. It takes a lot. It takes a lot of work, for sure, but even before that, there has to be a willingness to DO that work, to dig deep despite how scary that is, to admit and to look for flaws in themselves, and take on the weight of both all the damage they did to others, and all the damage that was done to them in the first place (which is how they ended up this way). It's no surprise that most people would rather stay in la-la-land and not face the ugliness inside of them, and not face the struggle and pain that it takes to become someone better.

I see you registered here in 2018, so... this is not something new. Granted, it does take some WS's quite some time to get their head out of their ass... it took me 3-4 years to even get to a point where I could understand all this and so be able to move forward, and that was with me actually doing the work and wanting to get better. But it sounds as if your WS hasn't been putting in that effort. It sounds like he is still rug-sweeping, minimizing, and avoiding... which in plain English means he's not doing anything to change. As Brene Brown puts it, he is "hustling for his own worth" every day, but it's just a hustle, so no real change or growth can come from it.

FWIW, my wife always says that people don't change until forced to, and I find that true. If your husband isn't doing the work, then he remains an unsafe partner to be with, because the things in his flawed character that allowed him to cheat in the first place... are still there, unfixed and un-dealt-with. I can't really advise you how to approach that, but I can let you know that "when nothing changes, then nothing changes". He hasn't changed, and he isn't be forced to change, so he remains the same. Clearly, the consequences he has suffered so far are something he is able to handle, and it hasn't been enough to motivate him to take a different road. Either that, or he is too broken to do so, but the end result is the same. He remains a danger to himself and you, as well as others in his sphere of influence.

If I can recommend anything at all, it is this. Put down healthy boundaries. If he's not in IC then he needs to be, and if he isn't, it's time to leave. There needs to be effort, and progress. (Progress ebbs and flows but it should be positive over time). If there isn't effort, then it's time to leave. Figure out what it is you need from him (other BS's can be helpful in this regard) in order to be safe and in order to consider staying. Enforce those boundaries. Put in timelines or conditions. Either he steps up to the challenge, or he doesn't. Either way, you'll know what you are doing and why.

I wish you both luck.

Me: WS
BS: ISurvivedSoFar
D-Day Nov '16
Status: Reconciling
"I am floored by the amount of grace and love she has shown me in choosing to stay and fight for our marriage. I took everything from her, and yet she chose to forgive me."

posts: 1446   ·   registered: Jan. 18th, 2017
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 11:08 PM on Sunday, July 23rd, 2023

Daddydom,

I thank you for your comprehensive explanation regarding my situation.

While none of us can really know the answers, your post resonated so much with me,my WP is indeed a broken person, he was before he broke my trust. Unable to communicate, conflict avoidance, manipulative,immature, the list goes on. Looking at it, we are only able to operate this relationship on a purely functional level, anything more than that is threatening to him.

Thank you again for your valuable insight

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800655
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 3:15 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

FWIW, my wife always says that people don't change until forced to, and I find that true. Clearly, the consequences he has suffered so far are something he is able to handle, and it hasn't been enough to motivate him to take a different road. Either that, or he is too broken to do so, but the end result is the same.
...
If I can recommend anything at all, it is this. Put down healthy boundaries.

As usual, DaddyDom nails it. smile

I'm a firm believer that fully feeling the consequence of one's actions is the best catalyst for change.

On DDay, I was going to allow my H to remain in our home to coparent, even though he wouldn't stop his A. It took me less than 24 hours to change my mind and ask him to leave, and it's the absolute best thing that I could have done for myself -- and for R. He got a good taste of what divorce would really be like and he didn't like it.

The very act of betrayal that he did was going to another female to discuss his worries with rather than me, he says this is because he cannot open up to anyone who is close to him, another reason he has given is, feeling shame for his actions.

I think that the most important boundary should be that he must go to IC to address the shame and the inability to be emotionally intimate with you. It's very likely that the shame has him tied up in knots and unable to take action. If he's a reader, Healing the Shame that Binds You might be a good place to start until he can get in to see an IC.

Remove the "I want you to like me" sticker from your forehead and place it on the mirror, where it belongs. ~ Susan Jeffers

Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 4:07 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

SacredSoul33

Thank you so much for your reply.

The first thing is, he did do IC 18 months ago, it was a request from me before I would even contemplate looking at reconciling, he attended for 20 sessions. It transpired that the therapist thought his inability to engage with me emotionally stemmed from childhood trauma. (I won't go into detail) and unable to relate to anyone close.

He was at that time enthusiastic about putting in the required work on the relationship and himself personally. While I will be honest and say that he has improved himself in some areas, this has slowly crept back in again, the defensiveness, the victim stance, etc etc, but no improvement has been made towards making the relationship better, either emotionally or physically.

I am sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to try and have a conversation about things when the first thing he does is go on a defensive attack, yes, I can sidestep that, but going round in circles and going nowhere.

So damn frustrating

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800712
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 4:20 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

If he's suffering from childhood trauma, I'm not surprised he's stuck in Victimhood. He's got good reasons for that. The trouble is that resolving that pain is usually very difficult. My guess is that he's scared of doing the work.

The only thing that you can do that I can think of is to require continued IC to work on the trauma. I mean require - if he doesn't do it, you dump him. IOW, I agree that he's unlikely to change unless he's forced to.

I'm very sorry for your pain and his.

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 30400   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8800715
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 4:41 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

@sisoon,

Thank you.

Yes, I can imagine being stuck with doing the work, he is afraid of confrontation, sees everything as a battle and this has all stemmed from childhood years. He is unable to discuss anything objectively, there lies the fundamental problem.

The part I do not understand is this..he is fully able to articulate other areas of life, work, friendships etc, it is possible to learn how to deal with issues? to put the same amount of effort into doing so?

I am left with this question....Is it fear or is it that he does not care, because to a betrayed partner that not caring is exactly how it looks and feels...because he does other stuff that makes me feel unwanted..openly staring at other women when we are out (and no, it is not just a quick glance) I find it disrespectful and unacceptable given the current situation.

[This message edited by Dreamdaisy at 4:53 PM, Monday, July 24th]

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800720
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 4:43 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

[This message edited by Dreamdaisy at 4:44 PM, Monday, July 24th]

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800721
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 5:13 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

Oh, man, I'm sorry. I assumed that he hadn't had any C yet.

My H started IC for childhood trauma about three months ago. He made sure to choose someone who specializes in trauma. He was also really apprehensive about getting into the nitty gritty of his childhood. At one point, he even declared that he "wasn't going to go there," and I reminded him that it was the whole reason that he started this process. He finally started down that road about three weeks ago, with one EMDR session completed. So far, it's making a huuuuge difference.

Obviously, 20 sessions wasn't enough for your H, and/or the counselor wasn't a good fit. I would set a boundary that he needs to get back into IC and start handling his inability to be emotionally intimate with you. He can decide whether he wants to abide by that boundary or not, and then you must decide how you will act if he doesn't.

I don't know if it's true that he doesn't care enough about you, but he hasn't yet felt enough heat from you to make handling it a priority. Without me telling my H that I was dangerously close to being done with his nonsense, he might never have taken action.

I am sure you can appreciate how difficult it is to try and have a conversation about things when the first thing he does is go on a defensive attack, yes, I can sidestep that, but going round in circles and going nowhere.

Maybe it would be best to write him a note so that you can say what you need to say without defensiveness and confrontation?

Remove the "I want you to like me" sticker from your forehead and place it on the mirror, where it belongs. ~ Susan Jeffers

Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

posts: 1544   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8800727
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 5:49 PM on Monday, July 24th, 2023

@SacredSoul33,

You definitely hit the mark there, he hasn't really had any consequences to deal with, and to that end does not bother. His idea in the relationship is to keep quiet or it means trouble, how in god's name can you relate to someone like this!!!

RE the therapy, he discussed that with me every week, the ideas and homework she had given him, I even saw the paperwork she had printed off for him in regards to how to help himself, it was all brilliant ideas that he could have worked with..Uh, no, he has done none of it. I got books for him to read, trusted websites he could read and listen to, spent many hours explaining it was safe for him to open up and talk..there is only so much I can do, particularly when you are hurting yourself. So, despite all the help and good advice from myself and the counsellor, he still acts like a room mate...believe me SacrdSoul33, it is IMPOSSIBLE and heartbreaking

I have learnt so much here at SI, from reading and chatting to others, for that I am more than grateful, it has allowed me to at least realise that I need to take care of ME and figure out if I can live with this or not, it is very conflicting because he is kind hearted in other ways, he keeps the home running, he makes sure I have all I need in terms of personal items etc..

Once again, so grateful for your support here, it means a lot

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800732
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Gracey ( member #79334) posted at 1:53 PM on Tuesday, July 25th, 2023

Hi Dreamdaisy, I am in a similar situation to you and although WH swears on everyones life he is 100 % committed to me he still seems to expect me to just forget what he has done and will not talk anymore about it. He has a problem with taking responsibility in other areas of his life so I wonder if it is this that keeps him from owning the issues and working on himself. The alternatives are: He is still involved with AP or still has a longing for AP. I have also considered he so ashamed about it that he would rather rug sweep. My worst fear is its all calculated and he is actually trying to manipulate me into believing its all okay now without doing anything to change himself, so that he can raise cash to buy me out of our home and hide his assets. I maybe way to cynical about his motives and I am trying to ignore words and concentrate on actions. As a child he was allowed to get away with whatever he liked so it maybe he has just never learnt to face consequences and is rather entitled. Has your WH shown remorse and taken responsibility for other things in the past?

Together 34 years Married. 17 years

posts: 100   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2021   ·   location: United Kingdom
id 8800821
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 3:28 PM on Tuesday, July 25th, 2023

Hi @Gracey,

I am not sure of your backstory, but mine is that I caught him visiting a female friend, he said to discuss a problem he was struggling with (he has always discussed problems with other people because he has childhood issues where he could not talk for fear of upset) I do actually believe this is what happened..However, because he went there several times, my understanding is that he formed an emotional connection to this person, although she had explained to him it was wrong, he kept going back..possibly hoping for more, who knows? But eventually she politely told him not to visit anymore, obviously did not want to be involved in the aftermath when I found out. I had information trickle out over a couple of years, each time resetting that clock that no BS wants.

I have also been through all the possible reasons for him being distant, we definitely tie ourselves in knots trying to unravel the reasons why, He saw a therapist, that was 18 months ago, and still not much change, particularly with intimacy and emotional connection. I, like yourself do wonder if he would rather be with this person or at least someone else.

He is unable to take responsibility either, unable to discuss anything in a rational manner (cue the manipulation, blameshifting, gaslighting etc) He has behaved badly all the time I have known him, immature behaviour, lying, he blatantly ogles other women in my presence, the list goes on.

I personally do not think this situation will ever change, I do not feel safe here, just waiting for the next disaster to unfold, which is why I am getting help for myself, hoping that it will help me figure out whether I can or cannot accept this any longer.

Have you made any decisions what you will do next??

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
id 8800830
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Justsomeguy ( member #65583) posted at 3:50 PM on Tuesday, July 25th, 2023

He has behaved badly all the time I have known him, immature behaviour, lying, he blatantly ogles other women in my presence, the list goes on.

And why exactly are you with him? He does not sound like much of a partner to me...

Does he have any positive qualities that keep you tethered to him?

I'm an oulier in my positions.

Me:57 STBXWW:55 DD#1: false confession of EA Dec. 2016. False R for a year.DD#2: confessed to year long PA Dec. 2 2017 (was about to be outed)Called it off and filed. Denied having an affair in court papers.

Divorced

posts: 1862   ·   registered: Jul. 25th, 2018   ·   location: Canada
id 8800832
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 Dreamdaisy (original poster member #67729) posted at 4:01 PM on Tuesday, July 25th, 2023

Hi @JustSomeGuy,

I sadly do not have an answer to your question, only to say "I am a fool" Somewhere along the lines of, you keep hoping it will change, I was quite shocked to read in the articles section regarding being co-dependent..yes, that described it to a T

I am also only just discovering how I have unwittingly, over the years, been manipulated by him, then always wrongly being told it was my fault, that I was to blame..that is how it has always been, in my ignorance I didn't understand any different...so you always try a little harder and it gets no better.

So yes, the awful realisation that I have been "conned" after all this time is quite frankly embarassing and a bitter pill to swallow

Hope that explains

posts: 121   ·   registered: Nov. 3rd, 2018   ·   location: Uk
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 4:13 PM on Tuesday, July 25th, 2023

Is your desire to R because of practical reasons like money, or because of emotional reasons? Because I'm not hearing that there's a whole lot to work with on the emotional level.

Remove the "I want you to like me" sticker from your forehead and place it on the mirror, where it belongs. ~ Susan Jeffers

Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven.

posts: 1544   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8800837
Topic is Sleeping.
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