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My ex kept me chained because he used suicide threats. At first it was subtle ‘I’m horrible/I wreck every thing good/life is a mess, I should just end it now" talk. Then he progressed to ‘how easy it would be to drive into the river/jump off the look out’ talk. That turned into outright ‘if you leave I’ll gas myself in the garage / if I’m alone I may as well bathe with a toaster’ suicide talk. It was terrifying for me, took the wind/fire out of me wanting to D. We got him into therapy all talk about the serial cheating was a trigger so we couldn’t talk about it, he told me he is so depressed now, he said he was diagnosed as a depressive.

Several months went by, nothing resolved, all shame and depression but it was all internal, the damage done was not addressed, I was a monster for not being on the same page.

Then he takes a wellness retreat holiday. Out of the blue on a random weekday night he tells me he is taking off in a couple of days to this wellness retreat, taking holidays off work (first time he would holiday alone since we got together), I pressed for information such as emergency contact address and number (because 1) he was suicidal 2) he says it’s in a no mobile zone), nothing. Day of holiday he is grooming himself, singing in the bathroom and a notification pops up on his phone "I can’t wait!!!!😍😍😍" , I go into instant adrenaline mode, his phone lock has changed and so I do the dumb ass thing and confront him. Full gaslight manipulative bullshit he feeds me about it just a friend from work and he is going to work to help her with a project and that’s why she is excited/ grateful (says heart eyes is her way of expressing gratitude) and "what do you mean? I told you I was going on holidays after work today" because you know, I got it so wrong and people always go to work on the first day of their holidays. He then guilt trips me about how my distrust is bad for his mental health and how I need to "get past the past" and then he leaves... for ten days... no phone calls and I have no way of contacting him because I have no clue where he is. Day 3 I call his therapist because surely she would know where this wellness retreat is. He only went to IC twice, in that first fortnight, she hasn’t seen him since. I used to drop him off outside her office and drive back to pick him up. My mind couldn’t handle this information and I told her something like "but he keeps talking about suicide".

The therapist told me something valuable.

If anyone talks about suicide you call your emergency services number (or suicide hotline if you have one in your area) and let the professionals handle it. It doesn’t have to be an attempt, the talk is serious enough. You treat the situation as serious as it is. When you call the emergency hotline you tell them it’s a threat/talk of suicide and they will either send someone to your location to analyse and assess or they take them to hospital where they will be analysed and the appropriate action(s) will be taken. (Edit: the other reason to call emergency services is a run of the mill therapist doesn’t have the education/training/certification to help suicidal patients and will often refer those clients to a clinical psychologist, clinical psychologists are at hospitals, calling the emergency or suicide hotline bypasses the cost of seeing a therapist who can’t help but only refer your WW to a professional who can help. It fast tracks her to help sooner. The therapist I thought my ex was seeing said her certification wouldn’t allow her legally to treat suicide clients, she couldn’t discuss what there ex was there for but that information was telling. She told me emergency services is the best way to get help.)

First time he talked about it I followed the therapist advice. I called his bluff, he was using it as a tool to deflect and manipulate, to keep me there. It was a few months into separation that I found his logins to his pro adultery forums and discord groups. They give each other tips on how to cover up affairs ("OPSEC") but they also include tips on what to do when busted, a reoccurring tip is to shift the focus off the affair and onto mental health, depression and thoughts of suicide.

So, you want to help her? Treat this as serious as can be, keep calling emergency and get her help. If she is serious she will get help ASAP, if she is using it as a manipulative tool hoax you’ll hear things like "it’s my business/ I’ll handle it at my pace" basically accusations that serious action wasn’t necessary.

Talk to your lawyer but I’m pretty sure there are states in America that don’t consider EA/ online affairs as adultery. If she is pushing it was non physical she might be VR baiting you or it’s her lawyers pushing that so she can get her hands on some of your retirement &/or alimony. Even with this new turn of events always be vigilant.

[This message edited by LostInHisFog at 10:48 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

I am not remotely surprised that she's expressed thoughts of suicide. I think that's on page 110 of the Cheater's Handbook.

It's a pure tactic of manipulation designed to pull on your heart strings, pity her, and perhaps back off from your current course of action.

Of course you've never seen her like this before. As I said in my last post, this is the first time in your marriage where she is not in control and you have the upperhand.

If she threatens suicide or does something dramatic (like take a whole bottle of pills in front you or hold a knife up to her throat), call the police immediately. If she's serious, she will get the help that she needs. If she was bluffing, then she'll learn a valuable lesson.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're wife is going to be "switching channels" quite a bit over the course of the next several weeks and months. Today, it's the self-loathing and suicidal channel. Tomorrow, the angry and combative channel. Maybe the day after that, the sweet and seductive channel.

Do not succumb to these manipulations and do not back down.

You will know what genuine remorse looks like if she ever reaches that point because her focus will be on the pain she's caused you and her taking definitive steps to repair that damage. She won't be thinking about herself at all.

She knows that now. This is the first time in 27 years I have seen her like this. She is at rock bottom and full of self pity...saying things like she is a horrible person, that all of this is her fault and she knows something is wrong with her but she doesn't know what. This is all new to both of us and frankly, I don't know what to do except be supportive, because that is my nature.

My WH also pulled the "thinking about suicide" manipulative bullshit. 3 weeks later I found him trying to hide conversations on his phone again. It's a lie. Don't fall for it. She says these things so that you, as a supportive, loving husband, will follow the script and push back on her "I'm a horrible person" schtick. You're supposed to tell her it's not her fault and that there's nothing wrong with her. It IS all self-pity - she still has zero regard for you. Again, barf.

(Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I have dealt with multiple suicides/purposeful drug overdoses in my family (good 'ol Scandinavian stoicism!) including my father. Not a single one of them announced their intentions before hand.)

I forgot to add this to my post…

the dynamic has shifted from saving the marriage to saving another human who I have spent 27 years of my life with and helping them be a better person.

That is precisely the point. She doesn’t want to focus on the damage she’s caused the marriage and the pain she’s inflicted on you. She wants you to focus on making her feel better.

And she knows exactly what buttons to push to get you to do what she wants.

Please read Trapped and LostInHisFog’s posts again. They are spot on.

I’m concerned that you’re being naive. If I had a nickel for every BH who saw tears, real ones snd not the crocodiles, that they’ve never seen their WW this way, they’ve hit rock bottom, she looked me in the eye and told the truth….

Listen to bigger. Listen to me, beyond rage, and some others who are recommending you get a timeline verified by a poly. None of this passes the sniff test in the slightest.

Waywards, in their desperation, lie, lie, and lie. They are master manipulators. They trickle truth.

You are obviously not convinced. I recommend that you pause and read past posts from BHs whose WWs did and said the exact same things your WW is doing snd saying. My friend, you don’t have the truth. You don’t even have a fraction of the truth. Snd now, with your WWs current "emotional state" she has effectively convinced you that you know everything, so no need to look under the mattress.

Whether you D or not isn’t the issue right now IMO. The issue is that you don’t have a fraction of the truth. You’re a compassionate person, a giver, a fixer, and an empath, so you want to comfort your WW because she’s human. I get that. However, what if you found out they everything she’s been telling you is a lie. All that you’re giving her right now is based on a lie. Does she still deserve all that you’re giving her?

Your gut is telling you she’s sincere and truthful. What was your gut telling you when she was cheating on you? Was your gut reliable then?

Trying to help you see this, not beat you over the head with a brick..

Yup. Y'all are most likely right. I am meeting with my attorney in the morning. Will continue with the intro letter and request to start the separation process. Will also ask about how to protect myself and what my timing should be, e.g. how long should I wait to find her her own place, etc.

As bigger said, there is a process in place to make things fair for both parties. Not much either of us can do about that.

This is the first time in 27 years I have seen her like this.

Because she has never needed to use this particular tactic before. The other approaches have always yielded results, so why change?

I was suicidal rightvafter Dday1. I researched a way of making it look like an accident, poured over my life insurance policy, picked a spot, put together a suicide kit just in case plan A didn't work, and was waiting for the weather to turn so I could do it. Then I reached out for help to my WW, who drove me to emergency, dropped me off and went home.

Did I mention she's a bitch?

Anyway, I spent the next year pissed off I didn't follow through. Yeah, I had some work to do. What I didn't do was use it as leverage to get something from my STBXWW. The next time she pulls that, call the professionals and let them deal with it. If it is a bluff, she'll never do it again. If it isn't, she'll get the help she needs.

From where I sit, your WW sounds like a master manipulator. It's good you have SI as a chamber of sober second thought...

It's more than just protecting wealth, it's more about protecting your psyche from someone who knows exactly what buttons to push. There is nothing quite like the mind-twisting a WW can give a man, especially if you are a semi-decent person.

FYI, most of us have fallen for somekind of white knight trap even when we KNEW better.

I know it probably gets old hearing the same thing over and over again here, and its just to help you realize that few people, when they royally f-ed up their lives will feed the beast anything that will make it worse.

Everyone just wants you to realize that few people offer up the whole truth, and to get it, it will require you dragging it kicking and screaming into the light.

Maybe you will find a way to work through all this, you sound like a decent person. Personally, Im not a fan of second chances, but that doesnt mean some people shouldnt get them.

Only you will know if your spouse will be worth it, I havent seen much that leans that way though. She has followed every trick in the book, so please take the advice of the long-standing people here. They are very wise, I havent been posting long but I have been here for a couple years, and they hit the mark more often than they don't.

[This message edited by LegsWideShut at 12:16 PM, Thursday, November 17th]

She knows that now. This is the first time in 27 years I have seen her like this. She is at rock bottom and full of self pity...saying things like she is a horrible person, that all of this is her fault and she knows something is wrong with her but she doesn't know what. This is all new to both of us and frankly, I don't know what to do except be supportive, because that is my nature. Again, I am not saying we are going to R, but something has broken in her and whether she knows it or not, she is screaming for help.

Rover - Remember when one of the attorneys you visited told you that if he were your wife's attorney he would advise her to delay and push for reconciliation. THAT'S WHAT SHE'S DOING.

We've already addressed that your wife is an emotional manipulator/abuser. She's appealing to your desire to be her KISA and to do the pick me dance.

Your wife is not the first nor the last cheater to use threats of suicide to manipulate their partner. Anecdotally, most people don't announce that they are going to kill themselves. So the next time the word "suicide" comes out of her mouth, you say nothing and immediately dial 911. If she really needs help, then you're getting her some, in the overwhelming likelihood that she's using this as a manipulation, she'll stop her bullshit.

As I mentioned before, I think I have been giving her too much credit these past 2 weeks.

No you're under estimating how manipulative she is. You've been in it for decades so it feels normal to you. You can't see her for what she is like we can on the outside.

but she is most definitely broken and at rock bottom not just in the marriage, but in her life. She has a barrier in her that is keeping her from doing what she knows she wants to do. Until she figures out why that barrier is there, she will never heal.

Delay delay delay. That's all this is. Notice how it's all about her and what she needs and how bad she feels.

She had a f'd up childhood.

Who didn't? But in all seriousness, except for a very few, all of our parents fuck us up. And I mean that seriously. As children we were like sponges. As adults we look for what is familiar. Have you ever had a friend or met a person who had a crappy parent who that person vowed to never become like and then years later they turned out to be a carbon copy of that parent they resented? This is why. Yet, that doesn't give any of us an unlimited pass to go around hurting and using people.

My gut feeling is that your wife doesn't want to lose her lifestyle and is only considering reconciliation because she wants you to continue funding that lifestyle.

Tell you what. Next time your wife brings up you two reconciling, tell her that you're willing to reconcile, but only after you divorce, and after you live apart and survive on your own for awhile, you can always date and who knows, get remarried down the line. See how she reacts to that. Otherwise, STOP TALKING TO HER.

Hi all,

Appreciate you all keeping straight.

Spoke with my attorney and I have lots of options to protect myself whether we R or D. I am continuing the D path for now and will wait and see if WW is really authentic in her desire to R or if it's just self protection.

I have plenty of tools at my disposal. A good attorney is priceless. So no matter what decision we make, D or R, I can protect myself.

Last night, she made dinner and we both sat and ate together. We did not talk about anything but mundane stuff. Then she wanted to watch a few shows together. We did, and still just mundane conversation. When I was going to bed, she offered to switch rooms so I could sleep on the bed instead of the pull-out couch. I told her no thanks, that I was already set up in the other room.

She is making a IC appt today, which I think is good. I told her MC wouldn't be useful until she figured herself out. One of my issues is that I don't think I am getting the full truth...although I haven't really pressed for it. So we will see if she is open to documented timeline, poly, etc.

I just want to commend you for how well you've been handling yourself in the wake of Dday, particularly the way you've managed your emotions, retained your composure (more or less), and successfully parried your wife's attempts at manipulation. This is no small feat. When I was this early out from Dday, I was pretty much a blubbering puddle on the floor.

There's a lot more I want to say and a lot more advice I feel I could give just based on your last post, but at this moment, I think a pat on the back is sufficient. You will get out of infidelity, one way or another.

Thanks, Blue.

I guess it's easier the 2nd time around. But that's not true. Still hurts just as much, maybe more.

I'm just trying to look out for me right now and giving myself enough time to make sure the decisions I make are not based on emotion.

I still have a long road ahead.

[This message edited by RoverGuy at 5:15 PM, Thursday, November 17th]

You are doing great, I just caution you to not get sucked into false R like I did. I fell for the tears and pity party and wanted to help her, she stayed in control and continued jerking me around.

Shes not sure she’s in love? Stay the 180 course she will start to crave what she can’t have. She’s not at rock bottom she’s acting like a spoiled child.

Again stay the course.

How does she explain the three days in OM area?

How does she explain the three days in OM area?

We had a wedding to go to in the same town that weekend. Originally, the family was going to go down a week before and vacation. But because of work schedules, we couldn't make it happen. My wife wanted to go early to have a vacation by herself. So she went from Tuesday- Thursday, and met us at the wedding on Friday.

She admitted they talked about meeting, but she said he couldn't make it and they did not meet up.

It was an opportunity, not something that was sought out. I knew exactly where she was. It's just now I know that OM doesn't live far from there and that's the bit I can't get over. She swears she never met with him. She swore on out children's lives.

I have all the financial documents and I don't see anything out of the ordinary. But that really doesn't mean anything.

Swearing on their children's lives is straight out of the cheaters handbook. It's extremely common.

If you consider reconciliation, tell her she will have to take a polygraph, so you can move forward knowing the truth. Her word means nothing.

If there were any real world ramifications for "swearing on our childrens lives" while lying...there would be millions of divorced couples who found themselves without their children at that point.

I've known people who swore on the Bible and lied, and they didn't get a well deserved smiting for it.

[This message edited by LegsWideShut at 9:46 PM, Thursday, November 17th]

She swears she never met with him. She swore on out children's lives.

As Hellfire said, we read this from cheaters all the time. They have no shame swearing on their children's lives, more often than not it's a lie.

If words could kill, my former mother-in-law would be dead 10 times over for each time my ex looked straight into my eyes and swore on her life that he wasn't cheating.

I believe your wife pulled this latest line from page 3 of the Cheater's Handbook.

As Aletheia said in her post, her whole strategy amounts to delay, delay, delay. She will only admit to the bare minimum of what you are able to prove, so since you can't prove anything, she will admit nothing. More importantly, she has no financial incentive to give you any evidence that will bolster your fault-based divorce case.

You know in your gut that she must've seen him during those 3 days she was out of town alone and in close proximity to him. That's why you can't let it go.

So next time she swears up and down that she never saw him, I would say, "It's too bad you deleted all of your messages with him; you could've used them to confirm your story."

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 10:11 PM, Thursday, November 17th]