SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Some specific opinions on what the work is...

So far my counselor says I did this as a poor coping mechanism because of my kids leaving for school. I also might have self destructive tendencies.

If the diagnosis is correct, then your best bet is to focus on developing healthy coping mechanisms and to develop your self-nurturing abilities to replace your self-destruction.

That takes a lot of energy, and if you use your energy for those things, you'll have less energy to cater to your BS.

To be a good candidate for R, you need to resolve your own pain and to remake yourself while providing emotional support for your H.

For your H to be a good candidate for R, he has to provide emotional support to you while you deal with your pain and remake yourself, and he needs to resolve his own pain.

Again, JMO.

Simply incredible it seems the BH has been judged more harshly here than the WW. It was quite clear his thoughts in JFO were coming from a place of deep hurt. How ironic he got banned just as he started to consider R….

Hey gr8tful,

He got banned not for the R consideration but his disrespect of WOEZ (fWW) who stepped in with and administrative function on his thread.

Also, I think the several pages of his not considering R and obvious trauma from his childhood make his current consideration of R seem insincere or at least poorly thought through. I think that is what some of the posters are cautioning OP about. That she may try and try to please him, to be what he wants to her to be and end up in a place of power struggle instead of relationship.

Also, the general purpose of the wayward forum is to focus on the wayward spouse so that they can heal and do what is in their best interest going forward. Mainly it's about "doing the work" and getting their head out of their ass, but it's also about looking realistically at the consequences of their actions. Taking realistic stock of the damage they did to their BS and seeing what is also in the best interest for their BS to heal.

From her BH's thread, I'm under the impression that he is very conflicted, very traumatized and likely her A is a "game over" for him. Therefore, because of his hurt and pain from what she did, he may not be able to R with her, through no fault of his own.

gr8ful,

He was banned for continuing to break our guidelines despite numerous warnings and chances. This thread isn't about him. Let's keep it on track and support Sakura2. He can speak for himself to her. They don't need up for that.

I'm thinking about asking him how he feels tonight, but I think that might be selfish. I want to know to better help him so I can try to empathize with him. It's been awhile since he considered giving me a chance so I don't know if I'm pushing it. I know I was advised to help myself first but I think this would be a way to heal myself as well which seems selfish like I mentioned. I don't know what to think it hurts to see him like this even more because it's my fault.

[This message edited by Sakura2 at 7:05 PM, Monday, May 16th]

I don't think your H is a good candidate for R unless he deals with his childhood trauma - cheating mom, excessively passive father, hateful step-mother. He probably had to stuff his feelings as a kid. He's an adult now, though, and he has to heal from those traumas in order to heal from the trauma you added to his life. But you can't do that work for him. He has to do his work himself.

I agree with this ^^^^ from Sisoon. It's typical for us to see anger and confusion from new BS's, but I don't think that's the limit of what we were seeing from your BS. I believe he meant the things he said and that they weren't said from a place of mere emotionalism. His hatred for WS was palpable as was his contempt for this board. And that's concerning when we start thinking about R, because R requires empathy and resilience on BOTH sides.

Right now, you're probably only thinking about "fixing" it, saving your marriage and your family dynamic. Likely, you're thinking that no matter what's required of you, it's a price you'll gladly pay. But the fact is that we have people who come in here ten, twenty, even forty years after the infidelity, unhealed and uncertain as to whether they want to remain in their marriages. So, you need to be aware that there's a strong possibility that R will NEVER occur in actuality, but that you can be lulled into believing that it has.

I think Sisoon is right. The only way forward is with two HEALTHY partners. You have to figure out what went wrong inside of you which allowed cheating to become a legitimate choice in your decision tree. Where were your core values and boundaries? And your BS needs to face his past. His mother cheated and his father failed to recover... two unhealthy people, one without strong values and the other without the resilience required to adapt. Do you SEE the similarity as your situation recreates the past??? Don't accept that. You are responsible for your healing and your changes. And HE is responsible for his. R can only work with two HEALTHY partners.

Sakura, here's the deal - stop looking to him for the answers. He's not going to do the work for you. He's not going to tell you what he needs because then it doesn't look authentic when you do it. It looks like you're doing it because he told you to and not because you're truly invested in healing. Instead of doing something you KNOW will backfire, how about you take that time and energy and re-invest it in yourself? That's where he wants to see progress, right? Read a book, listen to a podcast, journal, soul search, meditate, do yoga. Anything that puts your focus back where it belongs.

Ask yourself honestly - is it REALLY about him? Or is it about you and your need to talk to him, be soothed by him, or get answers on how not to D from him? Since you know it's not a good idea, I'm thinking there must be some truth to this being more about you and what you want versus him and what he needs. That soothing, that reassurance, that understanding that everything will be okay regardless of R or D, needs to come from within yourself.

Sakura, here's the deal - stop looking to him for the answers. He's not going to do the work for you. He's not going to tell you what he needs because then it doesn't look authentic when you do it. It looks like you're doing it because he told you to and not because you're truly invested in healing. Instead of doing something you KNOW will backfire, how about you take that time and energy and re-invest it in yourself? That's where he wants to see progress, right? Read a book, listen to a podcast, journal, soul search, meditate, do yoga. Anything that puts your focus back where it belongs.

Ask yourself honestly - is it REALLY about him? Or is it about you and your need to talk to him, be soothed by him, or get answers on how not to D from him? Since you know it's not a good idea, I'm thinking there must be some truth to this being more about you and what you want versus him and what he needs. That soothing, that reassurance, that understanding that everything will be okay regardless of R or D, needs to come from within yourself.

I believe this is in line with what other posts have said in this forum before, as a WS, we didn't consult with our BS on starting an extramarital relationship, i.e. we didn't consult with our betrayed spouse and seek their advice on how to start, maintain and hide an affair, we figured it out as we went along. In that same train of thought, we do not need our BS to lay out a roadmap of how to fix things after an affair, i.e. we don't need them to put humpty dumpty back together again, we broke it, we can fix it.

@Sakura, I don't know if I remember much of the story from your husband's posts, but what is the situation? Did he discover your affair or did you come clean? What have you done post discovery to be a safe partner? Does your husband know for sure that your affair has ended? Was a no contact message given to your AP that your husband either saw or listened to via speakerphone? Does your husband know that you have been no contact and can he verify that through phone records, sitting with your phone, etc.? You have to be able to show him that you are a safe partner, and it starts with total transparency and truth. Have you provided your husband a timeline of your affair? The timeline is important part of your healing so you understand just exactly what you have done and it also helps the betrayed to understand exactly what they are being asked to forgive, because ultimately, any foundation of R is some base level forgiveness. It is far better that you get all your cards, and I mean every single card you can scare up, on the table now. Every detail and every ugly thing about the affair is better to be out there now. Even if you never end up with an R situation, this will be a difficult exercise but there may be some catharsis in it for you as well, since you would have to be introspective in remembering some of the things you were thinking on certain days, etc.

He asked to talk to me tonight about the future and he wants a timeline soon, I've been working on it since yesterday

He asked to talk to me tonight about the future and he wants a timeline soon, I've been working on it since yesterday

Now here is my career as a director/manager kicking in. In the event that you are unable to complete it before you sit down to talk with him, maybe you share with him what you have completed and you can share with him the areas that you need to do more work or digging to complete. That way you can demonstrate to him that you take his request seriously and that you are making progress towards finalizing it. It is better than showing up empty handed and also, it gives him something tangible to look over. Sorry, years in management of someone bringing an incomplete project, but it's better to have something to look at than nothing.

Sakura,

I'm going to weigh in here as a BS in my third year of the R wagon, not without bumps. And I am sure some of the folks here are not going to like my opinion.

Lets start with your husband, whom all the amateur shrinks here are analyzing and telling you what he needs to do. He came here with a set course of action, which he did not need to do if he was certain about it, and he was prodded and questioned while he was very raw and wound up in a religious argument with some that should have not occurred. But it pissed him off even more.

Not one person here knows for sure what your future will be. If what you have posted here is the extent of your "affair", the sexual physical acts are nothing compared to most of what WW have done. That does not excuse it and does not excuse your cheating. You actually cheated by sending texts and photos before you ever gave a BJ. Your husband did not share too many details other than you arrived home and confessed with semen still on your shirt, which i am guessing you had no clue was there or you were so panicked to get home before someone else informed him because i do not think you are stupid as he stated you were for doing that. But like so many, the sex act was only part of the killer. The TT and lies before you confessed the rest is many times more damaging. I am also guessing that since you lost your job over this it was a workplace affair and if I missed that I apologize.

Now I would bet that over 90% of men you meet would tell you that infidelity is an immediate deal breaker yet the majority of men on this site have NOT bolted immediately and have at least made some attempt to R. Where you husband has made it even a more remote and complicated process is he informed the world, including your children before he even know if it was a one time thing or an ongoing affair. Sorry, I got the same advice from a few here and rejected it completely and am glad I did. But at any rate, yes it makes this even worse than before.

As far as his childhood issues, its bad, but how many men tell their wives if your cheat we are done and the wives come here and say they knew that and did it anyway. When you are caught up in the shitshow of an affair, judgement goes out the window or it would not happen in the first place. He needs to deal with that.

My suggestion is just to make every effort you can to prove to him that the TT is the only and last lie you told and i would offer up a polygraph test if for no other reason as to give him the chance to decide if that would help him.

One thing that makes me believe you might have a chance is that you admitted you did it because you liked the attention and did not come up with any horse shit excuse as to your "why". To think that if this was a one time breaking down of boundaries needs months and years of shrink work is preposterous in my opinion.

Your husband could have already had the divorce process well on its way yet he is still asking for things like a time line. Give it to him with nothing left out and get it done when he asked for it. It ain't over until the fat lady sings and that hasn't happy yet despite all the rhetoric. But you cannot control that

And lastly, this crap about waywards calling you out. There is nothing here yet to call you out on other than cheating and if you read the wayward forum there is not a ton of women falling over themselves posting here. And as fas as being harsh this is monitored for that and you should not limit your guidance to people who have not been betrayed. Its like getting advice on a sport from someone who never played the game. Sorry, unless you believe men and womens brains operate identically, a wayward wife does not offer the best advice on how a betrayed man feels.

Good luck to you.

Hi Sakura2,
I can only tell you about my experience being a betrayed spouse. When I found out about my WH's betrayal and he begged me to not divorce him, I wanted to see action. I wanted to see that he was willing to make a strong effort to be an honest person. That he was willing to make a strong effort to be a better husband. That he was willing to make a strong effort to do whatever it takes to repair this marriage.

The biggest step he could have taken that would have shown me how serious he was about our marriage was to tell me the truth up front. But he didn't. Every piece of information that I know, I found out and confronted him about. Then he admitted it. That's when I knew that it would take a lot of work for him to gain my trust back. Trickle truth is the absolute worst.

I wanted him to make an effort, but I didn't want to tell him how to make the effort. I didn't want to do the work for him. I just said, devote as much time as you did on your affairs daily to this marriage, us, and making it better. He now has to figure out how to take meaningful actions that will show me that he's serious. That's him making effort. That's him trying. Will it be a love letter, a few random unexpected texts, a heart to heart conversation that HE initiates, a surprise date night, a vase of flowers, holding me in bed until I fall asleep? I don't know. What I do know is that it's not my place to help him fix a mess that he created all by himself.

Besides the timeline, what other efforts have you made to reassure your BH that you're now 100% honest and devoted to healing the marriage? If he's been severely affected by the actions of his parents, he may be extra difficult to reach. Is there anything you're holding on to because you don't want to hurt him any more that he already is or things that you are afraid to tell him because you're scared of a reaction? Revealing everything may hurt now, but please trust me when I say that it doesn't hurt as much as being lied to for an extended period of time while being told, "I told you everything already!" Are you conscientious about making efforts that are important/significant to him and not necessarily what you feel like doing? Have you done things like giving him full access to your phone, laptop, passwords, etc? Full transparency is essential. For true reconciliation, there can be NO secrets.

I hope that you can find peace in your heart.

He asked to talk to me tonight about the future and he wants a timeline soon, I've been working on it since yesterday

We do talk about timelines here, and they're not a bad thing if you're in a position where R is what you both want. That said, we're in the WS forum right now, and YOU are the OP and your best interests are the priority, not your husband's. I would say that you need to consider that anything you put in writing might just as easily be shown to a judge in divorce court. Proceed with caution and a clear understanding that whatever you say might not stay between you.

Beyond rage

There's a few things wrong in your post I'm the one that told everyone, he didn't want to. As well as others posts about what he said. There was someone on this thread I had to correct twice and so did my husband on his thread, the same person because they would ignore important parts and read only what they wanted to. I'm not looking for conflict though I'm just answering that and in general to others. For example there's lots of mistakes in people's posts about his, not on a deep level but just mistakes or misunderstandings.

"Have you done things like giving him full access to your phone, laptop, passwords, etc? Full transparency is essential. For true reconciliation, there can be NO secrets."

It's all out now. I don't know how to do the reply thing so I just copy pasted it. Already did a polygraph past it with "flying colors"

Sakura2

What I wanted to hear from my WH was
" I messed up, I was weak inconsiderate and selfish my actions have brought to light my lack of healthy boundaries and coping mechanisms."

"I’m working on becoming a safe partner, husband/wife, father/mother."
List: IC, books, meditation, medicine or whatever else you’re doing to accomplish it.
" I understand that it will be a life long journey and I hope you will be willing to take it with me "

What I want to see from him. Vulnerability, Grief not for himself but for what he did to his family, to our children myself and family.

On Dday I RAGE and RAGE at him after that I transferred my rage towards the Ap. Your husband probably directed his rage here.

I was sad when he got banned, all I saw was someone deeply, deeply hurt. I remember him posting about finally being able to cry around 3.5 months out, same thing happened to me.

I copied this from DaddyDom

There is a Japanese term: Kitsugi-- it is the Japanese art of putting broken pottery pieces back together with gold — built on the idea that in embracing flaws and imperfections, you can create an even stronger, more beautiful piece of art

Not everyone has the skills, patience, and endurance to build a better, stronger marriage.

I wish you both the best.

P S
Posting on general will probably get more responses from BS’s but you might get some rudeness. A lot of us will appreciate you posting we find it hard to humanize WS’s.

Sakura.

I actually made a suggestion to your husband in his thread to placate you with a falsehood that you would consider offering you a chance of reconciliation as a means of "calming you down". I did this as I (and I should add others as well going by my PM's) was actually afraid for your mental state based on what he was saying in his comments.

To his credit, he was extremely adamant that he saw this as a lie (and aside from the other pretty nasty things he had to say) shut down the idea very quickly.

My reading of what he has said in your post and what he has now offered you are strikingly similar, HOWEVER, if he holds to his beliefs that such action is against who he is as a person, then this is a chance for you.

You have been given lots of good advice and you will receive more good advice moving forward so all I can offer you is my best wishes for you both and your children and that you all find a way through this and over time heal from it.

Look after yourself, look after your husband and look after your children.

Medieval you have a pm.

EnPedasos,

Posting on general will probably get more responses from BS’s but you might get some rudeness. A lot of us will appreciate you posting we find it hard to humanize WS’s.

This was addressed earlier. It is not recommended WS members to post in General.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 11:18 PM, Tuesday, May 17th]

We talked a lot last night I tried writing this multiple times but I couldn't. We sat down and he smiled at me with his eyes closed and we just sat there for awhile. He started and said this is going to be really hard for both of us are you ready. I said yes and he started with what do you want, I said you, he asked why, I said because I love you, he asked why. This question took me about 20 minutes to answer, I poured my heart out to him, the type of person he is, our history, the moments we shared everything came out. He asked how could I love him, how could I do this knowing him. I was honest with what my therapist said and that I liked the attention. He said liking the attention was all that matters, the therapist making excuses doesn't matter to him. That admitting the real reason why I did it is good but I need to stop with the other fake reasons he's seen the messages so he knows.

He wanted to know how I felt about what I did to him. I said it physically hurts to know you are in this much pain because of me and it breaks my heart. You didn't deserve it and I will always remember how you looked when I told you being helpless to get rid of it apologizing and saying how I hope I can at least be by your side while you heal even though I did this. I went on repeating myself over and over in different ways until he said he understands

He asked how it started it was a client I worked with, had contact electronically until I was physical with him. He would flirt with me and I would flirt back. I said it got easier. He asked what that meant. Easier to betray him? I said yes. I started sending pictures and so did he until we eventually agreed to meet in person when he had to do some paperwork.

Sex wasn't planned but it was, we were going to meet so we knew what we were going to do. He asked if I initiated I said I did apologizing every other word. We've both been crying this whole time but hearing me say it made him start crying harder and I followed. He asked if I liked it, I said no. I explained to him what I was thinking about how I was betraying him and I knew it was wrong but I didn't stop I had a breakdown and came home immediately and confessed to him. He said I must've liked it if I did it to completion, there's no way I didn't like it. You had him in the palm of your hands and you loved it. I didn't know what to say besides apologize and say I really didn't. He asked if I got off doing it and coming home to show him my reward. At this point I couldn't really answer because I was crying so hard and he sobbed. He said he was sorry but he wasn't, he has to know. I told him I didn't and that it woke me up from what I was doing. He pointed out to me I didn't need to be woken up because I was thinking about how it was wrong during it and that lying to him is the worst thing I could do. I couldn't respond because he was right so I acknowledged it.

Next he asked if I told the truth on the polygraph. I said yes and he asked how he could believe me I again didn't have an answer besides apologizing and acknowledging he couldn't trust me. He said this was good as he believes it shows I wasn't playing out the conversation in my head to try to trick him.

He asked me if I was just doing this whole thing as a play so I wouldn't have to be celibate the rest of my life, I'm sure my husband explained this and voiced his concern about my intentions with this but for anyone who doesn't know. All Christians believe sexual immorality (adultery) is the only reason for divorce and that the partner that committed adultery cannot remarry or date and must be celibate the rest of their lives. (I dont mean to break the rules about religious debate please just delete it if it is. It's something Lutherans and Calvinists all believe. Catholics actually go a step further and completely ban divorce.) I'm just saying it for context. He believes it would be easier for me to just fake it until I die so I wouldn't have to live like that I told him no and even though I don't want a divorce I would do it not only for him but because it's what God said to do. He asked why I didn't think like that during my affair. I told him because I was selfish and wrong and I have no excuse besides I liked the attention. We talked a lot more about this and my mindset during my betrayal. He described my behavior as evil but respects that I confessed and had I been caught or waited he would have not been so conflicted. That that is the reason he considered giving me a chance.

Next he asked about reconciliation and how he is giving me a chance but he might never be able to get over this and that it shouldn't sway me from trying and the worst thing I could do is not try. He asked me to look deep and do what I think I should do. He would try but I will have to do the heavy lifting until he gets his head straight and he's understood his feelings better. His feelings now are telling him he wants to be with me but it's hard to understand them and to give him time.

Next he asked what I thought about the situation about the kids and asked what we should do. It hurts me to see them like this and it also breaks my heart to see. He asked what caused them to start verbally assaulting me that one day. I begged them to talk to me and they got tired of it. When he stopped them I wondered why because they were right. He said it was too far. But he doesn't know what to do about them but we will figure it out. He hugged me and told me he loves me and to be patient and honest with him and myself or it's over.

I'm not very articulate with my writing so I just said what he said and what I said so sorry if it's hard to follow