SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Yep, makes complete sense to me. I don’t know if I ever met someone that was like me in this way. To my knowledge, you are the first.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:57 AM, Saturday, October 12th]

So I want to preface that I haven’t read all of the comments or your responses, so I apologize in advance if I’m saying something that has already been approached. From what I did read however is a lot of people, mostly betrayed, stating that a lie is a lie, and that they consider this disclosure another dday.

I’m offering my perspective on this as someone who has recently found the lies never stopped and lived two more years of false R. I will be honest, I’d trade you positions if it were an option. I can’t say for sure, but I don’t think I would be all that upset about something like that coming out now. Upset sure, but it was 30 years ago.

After both yours and his affair, and you guys decided to reconcile, with no more lies, did you specifically bring up that event? I’ll be honest, I have a good memory, but after 3 ddays I struggle to remember a lot of things that happened prior to the affair. To me it’s like our relationship got wiped. It didn’t really, but the affair has consumed so much of my mental space that things prior to, and especially things prior to us getting married are vague at best.

My point is, i would believe that he lied about it 30 years ago and then compartmentalized it, and after a while it went into the do not disturb file. I do feel that unless you asked him directly about it when you got everything on the table, he probably was so focused on the recent events it didn’t even blip on his radar. Why would it? You had an affair, he had one shortly afterwards, what a complete mess.

He could have lied again to you when you asked him this time. Easily. In fact it was in his favor, he should have to protect himself. He didn’t. To me, that shows change and him keeping his side of the bargain. I doubt he has thought about it at all, but when you confronted him this time he told the truth. He had nothing to gain by it and could have stuck to his original story.

As someone who has gotten the full story recently, I understand the stab of finding out lies, i just think that unless you asked him about this during R after both affairs, and if he hasn’t done anything wrong since his affair, i would bet he hadn’t even considered it because of everything else, and because of how deep he pushed it aside.

I’d focus on what did he gain by telling you the truth this time. He didn’t lie, he didn’t think of himself. That’s my interpretation. All the best HikingOut.

I would make sure that every lie told during the affair, which includes lies of omission are corrected, before you throw stones.

If there was something you missed, would it be fair to say that he has the right to consider divorcing you?.

If there was something you missed, would it be fair to say that he has the right to consider divorcing you?.

Yes.

Yep, makes complete sense to me. I don’t know if I ever met someone that was like me in this way. To my knowledge, you are the first.

🥂 Cheers, my fellow Pollyanna! I’m curious about your Myers-Briggs type. I’m an ENFP.

I would make sure that every lie told during the affair, which includes lies of omission are corrected, before you throw stones.

If there was something you missed, would it be fair to say that he has the right to consider divorcing you?.

1. You don’t know much about hikingout, I gather?

2. Anyone has the right at any time, for any reason, to consider divorce.

SS- I am INTJ.

HNHF-

I agree this in comparison of what we have been through is less troublesome than other things that have happened.

I don’t think my reaction has been the same as it was for those things either. But the night we did our poly we did sit down and say okay, we have cleared our burning questions. Let’s put out there anything the other doesn’t know. And I don’t think that was like run of the mill affair stuff, I am okay that I will never know every single thing that happened, that would be absolutely impossible and unneeded once you have the gist, but if you lied in any of your previous answers, or you lied about anything in the past, come clean and NO MORE LIES.

Sure, he may not have thought to tell me that night, but we did this poly like years ago- he had years to say "hey I remembered something and I am sorry" I do give him credit that he answered honestly when he could have kept it up.

I don’t think a connected close loving relationship has room for lying. It’s unneeded. What I want from a marriage is vulnerability, emotional and physical intimacy, love, passion, and honesty. I think those are all attainable. We don’t have kids at home anymore, we financially could support ourselves separately. At this point in my life, a relationship should enhance my life and not complicate it. I am willing to give all these things, and I deserve them all in return.

After seven years of dealing with this bullshit, some of it I brought to the table, I am done with that. I am gonna be happy. I want him to be happy. And this just gave me a lot of pause.

Is it really just one more thing that breaks the back, or is it something that has been illuminated that allows you to see that even though you’re successful in R, the relationship isn’t right for you anymore? There is a different.

Lots of people on the outside say what is best for your relationship, only you can really make that decision.

Successful R doesn’t mean successful longevity.

You know who he is, affair or not. I would caution that most relationships no matter how solid still cause complications. I guess you have to decide if the complications are less than the enhancement.

A fascinating and insightful thread HO.
And now I realise another reason why I like and appreciate your reflections, I’m also an INTJ.

My initial reaction to this revelation was simple: not more lies, deceptions, betrayal and TT.
One of my problems is that I sometimes have a little too much empathy.
After all, this revelation wasn’t even about me and my circumstances.
But I am still triggered by betrayal.

All the best HO as you process this new insight and paradigm shift in your perception of your WH and your relationship with him.
I will continue to follow this thread and your further revelations with keen interest.
Regards,
FAWH

Hiking out, I have followed you because of how you managed to get to the other side. I deal with groups of people whom I train. We often talk about behaviors they cannot tolerate. Inevitably cheating and lying take one of the top three spots. The problem is everybody lies. Everybody. Without exception. Once you have cheated, or been cheated on, everyone says NO MORE LYING! And it never works.

Your relationship started off with him trying to decide between you and another woman. That must have denied you the surety of his complete devotion. Somewhere down the road you found yourself cheating. I will guarantee that you lied many times by commission and omission. You have been very open about making changes through hard work but a person was hurt by your behavior. So now we have you not completely sure you were your husband’s choice and he knows, for a period of time, he was not yours. Then he cheated. That is a lot to unpack because he obviously lied during that time.

This very wordy piece is to hope you both find some grace by putting, as much as you can, your pain in a mental box and leave it there. Nothing changes the past. But you do have the future.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 10:32 PM, Saturday, October 12th]

Hiking
Sorry that you are going through this. I hope that you continue to trust your gut and find your truth.

Is it really just one more thing that breaks the back, or is it something that has been illuminated that allows you to see that even though you’re successful in R, the relationship isn’t right for you anymore? There is a different.

Hmm. I don’t think these are the only two options I guess?

Is it one more thing that breaks the back? I don’t really feel like i have asserted I want to divorce, I have said many times in the thread that isn’t my desire.

Our R has been successful and I don’t feel I have said that the relationship isn’t right for me any longer.

I think the gist of this thread is more about I am not sure what the heck it means or what to do about it.

I know I am done with betrayal. I don’t feel the need to lie about anything in my life with people who are close to me. Could I call into sick from work and not be sick? Sure. But I can’t think of anything at all that I haven’t told him. Nor do I ever feel the temptation to hide things from him or lie.

The fact that he did is triggering, ducks with my head, and I basically came here to figure out what rugsweeeping or realistic actions would look like. I didn’t want to just absorb it and possibly lie to myself about what it means. This is about honoring my words as well because we made that pact that we wouldn’t lie. How do you run across a lie then and say "ah, that’s okay" then it basically says I will put up with whatever, it negates any agreement and it alters how we move forward. Because the poly telling me it was his only affair, and vice versa, combined with this agreement was kind of a clean slate sort of feeling. This negates that.

Like pre A’s I don’t know if my reaction would be where it is. And though we had the clean slate a lot has happened to build trust up again between us. I mean I was to the point that I pretty much fully trusted again as much as it would ever be restored. But all of this was built between the day of the poly/agreement.

I love him, I enjoy the relationship very much, I just feel like I have all that is on my list but now the honesty is fully in question. It’s a pretty important pillar.

We are around 4 years out from his dday. Year two was my worst year, year 3 a lot of bonding started and then it’s only been in the past year it’s felt lighter and pretty solid. I was enjoying that and I think it’s possible that I could pull the wool over my eyes because I am too attached to the idea of this happy life we have been leading. I was afraid on my own I would ignore it and regret it.

I guess what I am saying is I am terrified of what it means? It could be nothing - or it’s the tip of the iceberg. I didn’t trust myself to make a non-biased call here.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:50 AM, Sunday, October 13th]

My (perhaps) parting thought on this aligns with something OldWounds said:

So, for me, when I chose to move forward and give this thing one more shot, I gave her the M equivalent of a political pardon. All crimes leading up to the now were forgiven in order to find room for today.

How does this align with your pact? Was it your expectation that all previous untruths would be explicitly detailed? Was there an explicit expectation for anything that comes to mind going forward would be brought forth? Is this an explicit breaking of the pact, or something that you implicitly expected?

As I said before, I think people are messy. We are all pretty selfish, we all have fallible memories. I feel like betrayal trauma has made my memory worse. I just don’t know how your pact could work without the pardon that OW discussed. My opinion, of course.

Inkhulk,

I hadn’t considered the trauma/memory thing.

I have been considering a lot of what old wounds said. He and I have been on the site pretty much with the same timeline and I see a lot of similarities in how we see R. And he is trusted by me in terms of having a good value system.

I lived life pre-(my) affair being very comfortable with grey. I figured out allowing so much grey was the problem, and become more adamant about being black and white whenever it makes sense. I am finding this to be a big grey issue and it’s making it hard to sort hard to sort. At least that’s the best way to describe what this feels like.

Old wounds solution is still allowing black and white and that’s why it’s attractive. I am having trouble trusting myself on this is the problem. Because why is it attractive? To hide from more upheaval? Or because it truly makes sense and is sound for our relationship?

For now, I have told him to figure out a path forward so I am waiting for that input. But I know at the same time I have to get to the bottom of getting my head wrapped around this to a point I can be peaceful.

And it might just be about a little time and patience in that. It’s logical to do a pardon but I can’t say that it feels like it could be total because it put a dent in the renewed trust. I think renewed trust is always more fragile?

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:48 AM, Sunday, October 13th]

One of my problems is that I sometimes have a little too much empathy.

After all, this revelation wasn’t even about me and my circumstances.

But I am still triggered by betraya

Maybe there is more to Myers a Briggs than I thought. This is what I know my problem to be as well.

Triggered by the (what feels like new) betrayal.

But always so empathetic and able to see both sides of the fence. This is the fear I have and why I came here with this. Being understanding is both a strength and a weakness. The weakness sometimes makes me choose others over myself, at least historically.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:45 AM, Sunday, October 13th]

This very wordy piece is to hope you both find some grace by putting, as much as you can, your pain in a mental box and leave it there. Nothing changes the past. But you do have the future.

So much truth. I have thought a lot about the idea of giving up on a future with him since my my affair. First it was me giving up by cheating then I had to accept I wasn’t in control of him divorcing me. Then he cheated and I again had to consider it. So it feels like this has been on and off the table for years.

Though this I learned the difference between attachment and love. Even though I know we do not control either to a certain degree. But the discernment is there.

I have spent half my life with him and we have a family together, so I love him and I know that will always be true.

But I am afraid that my attachment to him (and my peace and the future that my mind has now rewritten ) is clouding my view.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:12 AM, Sunday, October 13th]

I just don’t know how your pact could work without the pardon that OW discussed. My opinion, of course.

I have a question about this as I sit and ponder all that has been said.

66 charger asked whether it was reasonable to expect a divorce if I held back something and he found out. I said yes immediately because in a hypothetical situation that ONE thing could be a really horrible thing.

This situation is not the most horrible thing, I think most of us re in agreement that it doesn’t likely constitute a divorce all by itself.

So here is the question:

How does my pact work WITH the pardon OW suggested? A blind pardon? Something doesn’t sit right with me about that.

However as I wrote that maybe it starts to answer the original question. Because this sounds like a lot of legality. Which makes me think of the legality of the pact itself. Not sure there should be so many loopholes. And in both scenarios there are lots of them.

And when I think about the fact we are already bound by the "contract" of marriage, a contract that we both already broke and loopholed to death, and chose to stay together regardless.

It makes me want to drop the pact thing rather than add another shoddy attempt at assurances.

In fact, the marriage contract itself gave no protections against our poor human nature.

Thank you all for pushing me towards this epiphany.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:34 PM, Sunday, October 13th]

Maybe you have been pardoning him the entire life of your marriage?

This caught my attention;

I asked about this. He said they used a condom. Back then he seemed to be pretty religious about doing that. He used zero in his affair, and he was honest about that so I think he is being truthful.

So his memory is clear now all these years later? None of us can go back in time to know for sure what decisions we would have made given different knowledge at the time. That said you may have called 'pause' in the relationship if you would have known -- perhaps not. Either way this lie kept you from knowing and having agency over the life storie(s) you were involved in.

How does my pact work WITH the pardon OW suggested? A blind pardon? Something doesn’t sit right with me about that.

Maybe the category of "intentionally concealed lies" would need considering, which is exactly what has been discussed here. I just think the indisputable fact that humans forget and misremember things is highly pertinent to something like your pact. Decision making is complicated and hard. You took a shot here to really simplify it, and there are plusses and minuses to that. I think you are dealing with an unintended, unconsidered consequence of drawing such a hard line.

However as I wrote that maybe it starts to answer the original question. Because this sounds like a lot of legality. Which makes me think of the legality of the pact itself. Not sure there should be so many loopholes. And in both scenarios there are lots of them.

I've never seen any details of what this pact is beyond "no more lies". And there is a draw to the simplicity of that. But there are also reasons why laws and rules get complex. Cause life is gray, and people are messy. And I have to say I have been surprised to hear you say that you want out of the gray, I wouldn't have predicted that based off your writing.

And when I think about the fact we are already bound by the "contract" of marriage, a contract that we both already broke and loopholed to death, and chose to stay together regardless.

It makes me want to drop the pact thing rather than add another shoddy attempt at assurances.

In fact, the marriage contract itself gave no protections against our poor human nature.

That makes sense to me. It seems like making radical honesty an explicit value in your life and letting him know you expect it in return, that would be a useful and beautiful way to live. I don't know what benefit it brings to make it a rule, one that (as you said) is no more enforceable than the others already vowed into place.

Thank you all for pushing me towards this epiphany.

It's a pleasure watching your mind work.

How does my pact work WITH the pardon OW suggested? A blind pardon? Something doesn’t sit right with me about that.

I understand, and it isn’t completely blind, it’s tabula rasa - a blank slate.

I offered grace where none was earned and more important to me, is I assume the worst. In that era of my wife’s selfishness and her rationalizations (where she abandoned her own standards across the board), I can absolutely imagine a moment she has blocked out or compartmentalized into a far corner.

The blank slate is the redo we don’t owe, but we’re curious about where we can go moving forward.

The pardon assumes there is a lie or two out there somewhere from the past. It doesn’t cover any new transgressions.

Your husband could have kept the peace by lying one more time. He didn’t. He was in this rebuilt relationship you two worked on and he chose to finally be honest about it, knowing it wouldn’t be a happy, peaceful answer.

As noted before, your anger is completely reasonable, it is earned anger, even if he should have owned it much, much sooner.

After seven years of dealing with this bullshit, some of it I brought to the table, I am done with that

Agreed. If there is any silver lining to my existence now, is that it’s bullshit free. No masks, no games, no room to manipulate or be manipulated, just raw, 100 percent me being me, 24/7. Not radical honesty though, I still utilize some tact, I can be real without being mean about it.

You got one more lie you didn’t anticipate.

I don’t know it that should qualify as a last straw or a reason to pull the rug out from under all the work you both did along the way.

And if you’re remotely considering pulling the rug, then maybe this last untruth isn’t the full issue. Doubts happen too, I think that’s part of every relationship every day.

I have to choose my day, my life every single morning when I wake up. That day by day thing you mentioned, for me, that’s living in the now. That concept has taken me a long damn time to actually…..live in the now.