SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I am incredibly grateful for every member who gave generously to my situation over the past 15 years.

That’s right……15 years. If I had listened in 2009, my younger two children would never have been born and the older two and I would have lived a much happier life away from a very abusive WH.

Now, I’m committed to 8 more years until the youngest is 18. I don’t want another relationship and I merely co exist in this sham of one. He has no interest in growing or getting better or healing. He thrives in chaos and pain infliction. I’m love and light and calm and always will be. I couldn’t give him half custody of our precious kids, it isn’t safe.

But

If I had listened to everyone here I would have run away fast when the older two were babies (they were 2 and 1 in 2009).

Everyone here was right and I was "in love" with someone who seemed to deeply hate me.

I’m pleasant and keep everything nice and peaceful. He is comfortable and continues live a poorly hidden second life.

I have no interest in finding "love" again so I find joy in my work, my kids, my remaining sisters (lost my little sister to cancer recently), and my parents.

Life is good and you all spread hope and joy and love and I hope more folks find their way here. It saved me so many times.

... I believe there is an unspoken rule, that one must believe true reconciliation is a possibility, in order to post here.

People post from their experience and from the conclusions they draw from knowledge that's pretty limited about other people. I know it's hard to imagine that other people can experience life differently from how we experience it ourselves, but we have no trouble accepting that some other people are better athletes than we are or won more Nobel prizes. So how is it that one can doubt that R is possible for some unknown number of people?

In healing from infidelity, we all have to find our own path. It's important, IMO, to know there are several possibilities. Knowing that R is possible is important - but that's way different from knowing R is right in a specific case.

I agree a lot w HellFire in that people on here do sing a happy tune a lot.

That strikes me as sour grapes. It also strikes me as claiming to know more about another person than they know about themselves.

In particular crazy blanket statements like the WS didn't trust their AP.

The problem is blanket statements.

BTW, do you think those who have give specific examples of WSes not trusting their aps are lying?

What amazes me most is how you reconcile with someone that disrespected you in the worst way possible. You trusted them completely and they used your trust to break your heart.

One moment your world is safe and the next it has blown up, crashed and burned, nothing makes sense and your spouse is totally responsible

How do you forgive when you never forget!!!!

The disrespect by my W was not a great problem for me to deal with, especially because I thought my W betrayed herself before she betrayed me. I had also done enough therapy on d-day to respect myself; that probably made it easier to let her disrespect, such as it was, pretty much roll off my back. She was really fucked up, and the A was clearly all about her, not me.

That's my experience. Others have very different experiences. My heart goes out to anyone who discovers years after being betrayed that the A damaged the relationship beyond repair. I know it's extremely difficult to change course after years of false R - but that may be the best course of action.

I think R is possible if both do the work.

Exactly.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:30 PM, Wednesday, November 27th]

People post from their experience and from the conclusions they draw from knowledge that's pretty limited

One doesn't need to know someone's entire life story, to be able to see the red flags in many posts on jfo,or the R forum.

I know it's hard to imagine that other people can experience life differently from how we experience it ourselves,

No,sisoon, it's not "hard to imagine." I'm not a child. I'm well aware that everyone's experience is different. But,when you see returning members coming back saying their ws did the work,was truly remorseful, you start to see patterns. Unless you choose not to.

I'd like to remind you..the same can be said for those who "reconciled." Maybe it's hard for them to see that not everyone has experienced what someone who has had another dday..with a remorseful WS, who did the work..years later.is dealing with. Yet, when those members say they don't believe in true R..or,at least believe it's extremely rare..they're either shamed for having that opinion, or they're told they actually didn't have a WS who was remorseful, or did the work. They're basically told THEY don't know THEIR own story.

And..I get it. For those who reconciled, having their ws cheat again is typically terrifying. They need to believe it won't happen again. So when someone insists they did have a ws who was remorseful, they need to find a way to believe we are simply wrong.

That's my experience.

Exactly.

Yet,those who have a different experience, and dare say they don't believe in R,are told they're wrong. I don't believe in R, because of my experience. Yet saying that is met with attempts to shame.

As I said..I believe it's an unspoken rule that one must believe in R,on these forums. Which is why I don't post often, anymore. I believe infidelity is abuse. If you dont..then ok. But I do. Telling someone they can R if they have a truly remorseful WS, who does the work, seems like false information TO ME. Yes, because of my experience. But,also from being on this site for several years.

I truly hope those who reconciled never have to experience this crap again. But,because of my experience, I believe either the ws just learned to hide it better, or, eventually they'll do it again. And I know that ruffles feathers. I believe that opinion is helpful..but I also know several here don't think it is. Hence, the lack of posting.

That strikes me as sour grapes.

Sour grapes. Bitter. Words that are often said to the bs who don't believe in R anymore. No empathy. No understanding. No room for those members.

I do believe there are truly reconciled bs here on this site. Hikingout is an extraordinary example of a former ws. Ff is another, though it took a long time to feel that way,since he never told his wife. Daddydom is another. I would bet good money these 3 would never cheat again. I also believe you are reconciled. Tushnurse is another. I'm sure there are many more. But I also believe you all are in the minority.

Those of us who don't believe in R are given little empathy and understanding. We're shamed for having that opinion. Our experience is minimized. My opinion doesn't threaten anyone's attempt at reconciliation. But it does prevent me..and many others from getting the support we need. And THAT is a shame. This place was invaluable,for a very long time. But once I stopped being able to share my real fears,my doubts, my pain,after my second dday, I felt unwelcome. In what used to be MY safe place. This place should be a safe place for all BS. Even those who find reconciliation unhealthy. I can't encourage anyone to stay with an abuser,of they're sorry enough.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:16 PM, Wednesday, November 27th]

Double post

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:47 PM, Wednesday, November 27th]

I think R is possible if both do the work

I did the work. Which is why the 2nd dday didn't break me.

He didn't cheat again because I didn't do the work.

I believe there is an unspoken rule, that one must believe true reconciliation is a possibility, in order to post here.

Well, it has happened, so it is true. You should have to accept the truth as the truth to post here. Seems reasonable.

It is also, statistically, a bad bet frankly. The statistics say that a majority of R tries fail, either immediately, or down the road, or in accepting something way less than an open, honest, living relationship.

If someone wants to try to R, I think we owe them the truth. It may be possible, it isn’t probable, the way you find out is you try. Here’s what has worked for me and what I’ve read has worked for others. You don’t control your spouse, so you can do everything perfectly and end up in D (but know you were true to yourself in trying). They may do everything perfectly, but you realize you’ve changed, and it is not going to work.

I am a super wary of manipulating anyone who comes here. Hard not to do it, implicitly or explicitly.

That strikes me as sour grapes. It also strikes me as claiming to know more about another person than they know about themselves.

Naw man I just don't want the grapes another fox has already pissed on. Everyone has to make their own decision though. I am extremely doubtful about R, it is a suckers bet for BHs and most need to be convinced that they can do better for themselves than a WW.

The problem is blanket statements.

BTW, do you think those who have give specific examples of WSes not trusting their aps are lying?

I am talking about the WS--more than one--who have said no she (the 'she' not being the poster but someone else a BH who was talking about how his WW was closed off to him but quite open w her AP) did not trust her AP. It was some nonsense let me tell you!

I do allow for the possibility that some people even w the best of intentions may just be fooling themselves.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 4:21 PM, Thursday, November 28th]

I feel compelled to write here because it feels like it could very well be a last opportunity to interact with someone I cherish and has deeply impacted my life.

It makes me feel like an enabler.

That line stopped me in my tracks. It communicates to me the depth of revulsion you have for infidelity, and of course who can blame you? The This0Is0Fine idea of "integrity adjacent" captured my mind when I Just Found Out. You have clearly come to a different conclusion, that this is all on a collision course with ethics even for the betrayed, and I think that that conclusion is not unreasonable given the way that infidelity has infested your life. Your stance on infidelity as severe abuse has colored my views on that, I fully agree with you there. I think your parallels with physical abuse are right on, and then it's not hard to see at all where you are coming from.

HF, my personal experience is that when I look back on my time here years from now, I know I will never forget hikingout and you. You changed the course of my life, led me toward light and goodness when I didn't want to give up what it would take to get there.

I personally think this whole "is R possible" question is far more semantic than truly substantial. I hear the understandable disillusionment and despair behind your words and I literally weep for your pain. I pray that I will never go thru this hell again, and you have made my life safer and truer and better. I wish I (and we) could have given that back to you in your hour of need.

You changed the course of my life, led me toward light and goodness when I didn't want to give up what it would take to get there.

Thank you for this. Over the years,I've received a lot of criticism, for the way I post. Some failed..or refused..to believe that my bluntness was due to my very real concern for the bs. I believe every bs deserves to hear the truth. Of course,we can only go on what they've posted. But the truth,as I saw it. I don't sugarcoat. There are plenty of bs here, who will do that. I have a no nonsense approach. I figure a bs has been so incredibly lied to,by the time they show up here, that they deserve nothing less than the hard earned knowledge us old timers have learned. Was I wrong? Sometimes. Of course. Was I also right? More times than I wanted to be.

When I have checked in, it's been to see how you are doing. There are a few people here,who I genuinely care about. You are at the top of that list. Please know that I am so very sorry things ended up the way they did,for you. I so wanted to be wrong. But,I have no doubt you will thrive. Your children will grow into amazing adults. And, I so hope you find a woman who is worthy of you.

I'm doing OK. I've had some difficult health issues lately. My marital issues have taken a back seat. Don't worry about me. I'm a fighter. I'll be ok.

I don't intend to fully leave this site. I will check in, from time to time.

I’ve been on this site for about a year now. And TBH it’s been my therapy numerous times. The thing I like about this site is the differing opinions and the fact they are all based on personal opinions. Even when I felt a comment made to me was harsh I never thought it was from a ‘mean’ place just more that I probably didn’t want to hear that point of view at that time.

I appreciate having the option to read stories and opinions from BS’s and WS’s and from people who have successfully R with their partner or have moved on and divorced and then everyone in between.

I have heard some horrific stories on here that have made me feel so sad for the BS but also has made my eyes open to the fact whilst there are still happy marriages out there, there are also so many that are not and that I’m not alone. Also this site and my husbands A has taught me never to assume anything about anyone without knowing the full story and even if you do it’s their story and they get to live it the way they choose.

This site may not be as busy as it used to be but it’s still a very good source of help and advice for new BS’s.

I apologize for the thread jack, my friend doesn't PM. Besides, this is thread adjacent

Thank you for this.

It's a drop in the bucket compared to what you've given me. Just one example: the unbelievable response to my I Needed To Believe poem showed concern and care and creative effort at a level that is hard for me to think of many parallels in my whole life. And I'm pretty sure the time stamp on that was about 5 min after I dropped it, so I have no idea how you did that, but it reached right into my soul and let me know I was not alone on a dark dark day.

Some failed..or refused..to believe that my bluntness was due to my very real concern for the bs.

Maybe to the point of the thread, there are so many personal preferences out there. Your bluntness was never problematic to me. You can take it as well as you give it, I recognized and respected that, and it was really easy for me to hear the concern and good will coming thru. And maybe you aren't every one's cup of tea, and that is ok. As my role has shifted to giving more advice than I get, I can feel the randomness of who connects with me. And that is ok, I'm glad that we have such a variety of styles and voices here, it undoubtedly adds to the richness of the community. And you have been a wonderful, unique part of our community.

Please know that I am so very sorry things ended up the way they did,for you. I so wanted to be wrong.

I know.

I'm doing OK. I've had some difficult health issues lately. My marital issues have taken a back seat. Don't worry about me. I'm a fighter. I'll be ok.

I don't intend to fully leave this site. I will check in, from time to time.

I'm not posting much right now, it just isn't in my interest with an active divorce. Plus my heart and mind are just quieter, there isn't a geyser of pain and confusion needing to be processed (thank God). But when it makes sense to, I'll give updates. I'm doing alright, some days are better than others, but I have hope. Lets keep in touch. I hope and pray for your health and happiness. Happy Thanksgiving.

I do believe we are a group of people sharing our experiences "you take what you need and leave the rest". When I got to SI I was told offering R was a mistake, they were right. My WW had a lot of work to do to be offered R. I see it over and over in JFO, "slow down, its too early for R". I was told to implement to the 180, it seemed like the opposite of what I should do, the opposite of the "Pick me dance".

I am grateful for the advice and all of the personal changes I have made. The main change is my "Bull shit o meter" is very well calibrated and the only thing I trust is my gut. I DO believe my W has changed, I have seen her go toe to toe with friends at the top of slippery slope. She hates infidelity because it was a large part of her childhood and then she brought it into her own family. With that said I will never forget what she is capable of, she is like an alcoholic that has to protect their sobriety, she has to be vigilant to protect her M.

I have seen many members D and move only only to return because the second partner has cheated on them. There are no guarantees, people suck, I appreciated the road map laid out by those that went before us.

Well, it has happened, so it is true

Ok. You win. It's happened.

It's also extremely rare.

I don't believe reconciliation is ever in the best interest of the bs. Notice I said I BELIEVE. Which,of course, means nothing to anyone else here..except for me. Therefore, I can not,in good conscious, encourage anyone to do so. And that isn't popular around here..as you can see in a few of the posts responding to that one comment in my first post.

Imo..abuse is abuse. We tell wayward wives to run,if their bh slaps them on dday. They're told it will happen again. They're told it's not safe. They're told once a man hits a woman,it is easier to hit her again. Etc. Etc. Yet,bs are encouraged to stay with their ws(abuser), every day on nearly every forum. We are not to say once a cheater, always a cheater. Because that's a generalization. Somehow,though, it's not when it comes to physical abuse?

Look..I freely admit my opinion isn't what most want to hear. I also fully acknowledge I have no right to tell a bs who wants R that it's impossible. But I can not tell them to try. It makes me feel icky.

I'm looking at a potentially terminal illness. When I say life is too short to tolerate disrespect and disregard, it's because LIFE REALLY IS TOO SHORT.

Ymmv. And that's ok. But, you know what is also ok? My opinion.

Hellfire

Therefore, I can not,in good conscious, encourage anyone to do so.

Well then, what do you say if they are determined to try?

Well then, what do you say if they are determined to try?

It seems that she is choosing the logically consistent option of silence.

It's also extremely rare.

I wish I knew a definitive truth to this. I think it matters, and I genuinely don’t know what the numbers really are. Anticipating the response that the statistics don’t matter for individual cases, I respectfully disagree. If I got a cancer diagnosis with a 99.9% one month fatality prognosis, I would choose to spend my remaining time with those I love instead of in a radiation machine. If I had reliable numbers that said that for a random cross section of the population that only 5% of marriages thrive after an affair, I think that would have influenced my thinking greatly.

I also think it's statistically rare, and I agree that the odds are against it being a good idea for the BS. (For those of you who don't know, because I don't often post here anymore, I'm a mad hatter who primarily self-identifies as a WS.)

When I look back at myself right after D-Day, there's not a doubt in my mind that my BH should have walked away. Can I tell that his life overall would have been better? Of course I can't. He might have ended up with someone far more toxic than I am. He might have been cheated on again. He might have spent his life lonely instead of raising three amazing kids. But there are ways that I believe he would have healed if he had left me that became unfixable as a consequence of staying with me. It prevents what I did from ever becoming part of the distant past; he's lived his entire adult life married to the person who betrayed him. That has an impact, and regardless of my fidelity ever since, it would not have been true if he had left.

It cuts both ways. Although I believe I'm almost completely healed from his brief infidelity, I've also lived my whole adult life with the stain of something I did before I was old enough to legally drink. If I ever am widowed and go on to form a new relationship, it will be a clean slate. That has psychological ramifications for me, too, even though my husband is not the type to rub my nose in it.

So I don't hold it against anyone who believes reconciliation is statistically a bad bet. I do think that this site was founded on the premise that it is possible - not required, not even aspirational, but possible if all the elements are in place. The BS needs to be wired to accept it. The WS needs to be willing and able to change. Those are not small requirements. Even if you have them, even if you do everything under the sun to prevent a recurrence, there are still no guarantees.

But there are some of us WS who want it badly enough that we will never, never cross that line again. I know, because I am one of them. If acknowledging that makes me "pro R" despite everything else I've written here, then yes, that's what I am.

Gosh, I read 3 pages and your discussion here is really interesting and yet extremely triggering. At 2.5 years after DD, I am trying to r with wh. He was never abusive, he was always kind, he loved me, I was his precious girl, and he is a really good father... I continue... He has narcissistic tendencies, he seeks validation in his work, we experienced quarantine, he didn't had any validation, his job wasn't that satisfying anymore, he joined a fb group (I was aware of it), he started talking with one pos, he pursued the bullshit talk, she happily responded because she already had done this once more, if it wasn't her it would have been someone else because... Narcissism.... And he broke my heart when he confessed.
I try to R. It's going as all Rs are going in this stage. It's ok. I wish I had beside me the man that would keep our problems between us, may it be a divorce or trying to save our relationship (because prior to the A we were struggling, and that is undeniable).
Through this whole ordeal, I see and hear about couples that also went through infidelity and either stayed or divorced. Too many have stayed. Too many have found out about the a but not the full extent of it. Not many write in forums... They don't even know their existence...
I often say to myself that I have to stop coming here in si, because it doesn't let me give a real chance in reconciliation. I was also thinking the other day, that the same dopamine that wh was getting from the affair, the same thing happens to me with si. Although he had excitement (not only positive) , when I come here, I read, I get triggered, I get mad, I remember and I stay vigilant and alert. It's this damn brain chemistry that is almost the same. It is a strange thing that keeps me on my toes, much like an affair does.
I also noticed that the people who are regulars here are either reconciled or divorced. So no matter what someone chooses to do, d or r that is, the pain and the questions are there.
I cannot thank enough the ws's that are here. They have been the ultimate help for me. And they are not many... Of course my wh doesn't come here either. He had prepared a 3 pages post, but I think he is too afraid of the 2x4s that will come his way after posting it....
As far as it concerns the bs's, it's sad but their input is invaluable because at least you feel you are not crazy, there are other people who say and feel the exact same things. We are not crazy...
Finally, I believe that people who come here are mostly people in pain, either because they just found out for the first time, or because they are not that far out from DD, or because they experience a second DD or they are divorcing etc... Apart from the good people who come here to help others, not many would want to stick around and remember the worst times of their lives. And interestingly the first ones that leave this place are the ws's....

** Member to Member **

I wish I knew a definitive truth to this. I think it matters, and I genuinely don’t know what the numbers really are. Anticipating the response that the statistics don’t matter for individual cases, I respectfully disagree. If I got a cancer diagnosis with a 99.9% one month fatality prognosis, I would choose to spend my remaining time with those I love instead of in a radiation machine. If I had reliable numbers that said that for a random cross section of the population that only 5% of marriages thrive after an affair, I think that would have influenced my thinking greatly.

We have some numbers that are suggestive.

For example, Peggy Vaughan did surveys of over 1000 people impacted by infidelity. Not randon, so extrapolation would be wrong, but a majority of the people stayed in their M. (Help For Therapists and Their Clients, page 30 of the PDF) That's not R, necessarily, but some BSes and associated WSes almost definitely did R.

Shirley Glass wrote that 20% of the couples she treated who said they wanted to stay together ended up splitting. That has to mean 80% stayed together. I would bet that some R'ed. I also would bet that other couples who engaged good therapist R'ed.

To me, 'very rare' means '1%-5%'. I expect that's low for true R - I don't know. No one does. But we do know that some people R.

I also DO know that many SIers throw around statistical arguments without citing sources, and that is intellectually dishonest and shows disrespect to all of us.

*****

Hellfire,

I doubt that anyone thinks your H cheated because you didn't do your work. IMO, he probably cheated because he didn't do enough work.

HoP said BOTH have work to do to R, and I agree.

I'm very sorry you've got a health problem. Please stay in touch. I hope you report recovery soon.

*****

There's a difference between saying 'people who think they're in R are lying to themselves' and 'You want R, but these red flags make me tell you that you're not evaluating what you see and hear properly.'

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:28 PM, Thursday, November 28th]

I'm looking at a potentially terminal illness.

So very sorry to hear this HF. There are some, like me, who absolutely appreciate your perspective. Will be praying for you.