SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hellfire

I'm sorry for the trigger. My IC always referred to my ex as a "hebephile" saying there was a difference in the clinical term between the two. Both are triggering and disgusting to me, but since OP works in the mental health field I was afraid she might be too quick to dismiss the pedophile label since her sister was a teen.

..........

Your husband's abuse of your sister AND his abuse of you after your affair demonstrate that he's a person who doesn't see the women in his orbit as human beings with their own dignity and agency but as objects that he possesses or that exist solely to meet his needs, sexual or otherwise. When he physically attacked and humiliated you after your affair, it wasn't purely from the pain of betrayal... it was to put you back in your place.

This type of behavior NEVER exists in a vacuum. If you had some time and space from him, I'm sure you would recall many moments-- even if they seemed inconsequential at the time -- that he made you feel small or tried to keep you in a box.

^This.

Well he says he will take a polygraph whenever I want and do whatever I ask of him. I am not concerned with his current fidelity so I have no use for checking his phone or any of that. He has never locked a phone, ipad, or computer in our house without me knowing a password. If anyone has other suggestions for checking the validity of his statements I'm all ears. My biggest concern at this point is to make sure he had never done anything else remotely like this.

He comes home next week so I need all the resolve I can muster to help with my conficted brain.

I'm very afraid to be all alone in life. I haven't worked in over a year because I was finishing a degree. The thought of trying to do everything alone is terrifying. Perhaps some people who have been in a similar situation could share how they managed to successfully leave and be on their own?

I was scared to contemplate divorce too URL. It's okay to be scared, cus if that is the route you go is a big change and all big changes are scary to some degree.

You're getting a degree. Do you have job prospects with it? Obviously being employed is good.

Also whether you're leaning that way or not, it's prob not a bad idea to do some consults with lawyers (a lot of them offer free ones) just to get a better understanding of what S and/or D look like where you're at. A lot of that fear for me was fear of the unknown - having info can help put that fear into proper perspective.

I think it's key for you to examine why you're scared of being alone too. That could help if you dig into it a little further.

I will tell you that most of the things I feared at the outset didn't come to pass and being by myself has proven more peaceful than I ever thought it would. It definitely is not the worst thing to me - the worst for me was turning myself inside out to repair a marriage that was past saving.

No matter which way you go, just know you're gonna be okay.

Obviously, no one on here can dictate to your sister what she should or shouldn't feel traumatized about or disparage her for not hating your husband. She's entitled to process her emotions and her experiences in her own way.

Personally, I think her desire to sweep everything under the rug is born from pure conflict avoidance and the fact that she knows not to expect any kind of support from the rest of your family.

Where your sister IS WRONG is telling you to dismiss our advice as negativity. The fact is our disgust and anger-- as well as yours-- is completely justified. If sexually abusing a minor (and family member to boot) isn't a fundamental betrayal, I don't know what is.

And again, I don't believe for one hot second that he's a model husband and father a part from these events. He invested a lot of time and emotional energy grooming your sister and then abusing her.He physically and psychologically tormented you over an extended period of time. And, as a traveling salesman, he has ample opportunity to do whatever he wants with minimal risk of you finding out... hence his reluctance to install the dashcam.

But anyway, here's some concrete advice going forward:

-Make him take the polygraph but don't tell him when it will be or the questions to be asked. The accuracy of polygraphs is dubious, but they are useful in terms of obtaining parking lot confessions. Also, many a wayward spouse has promised to do one and then balked at actually following through... his reaction to you scheduling one will tell you a lot about his sincerity.

-I'm sure others will disagree, but if he is desperate for you not to tell your children about all he's done, leverage that to get a favorable divorce settlement. I have no doubt in my mind that he would be inclined to fuck you over as much as he could for daring to leave him, but he seems concerned enough about protecting his image with his children that he will play nice with you. Keep that trump card up your sleeve and get yourself a golden parachute out of your marriage. You can always play it when and if it's ever necessary.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 9:26 AM, December 20th (Sunday)]

Update. Husband is joining at my recommendation, after DDAY #2 of this situation with my sister just occurred on the 25th of this month. I want him to get all the 2x4s the WS typically needs and gets in this forum. When I was the WS, I had to wade through some things that made me bristle and upset me, but in reality were appropriate. The truth of who you are when you are a liar and when you have an affair is painful. I want the same for him. I want him to hear from people who have been through this (affairs and betrayals) and truly understand. Maybe it’s a little self serving, but so far it seems he is not having his feet held to the fire by his therapist or the MC we had been to. Also, my parents had been pretty easy on him around this while giving me and my sister a harder time. I am really having a hard time not feeling very very angry right now. I know the members here will provide an appropriate combination of support, advice, and 2x4s, and they don’t know either of us. I also need him to realize and admit that what I am confronting him with, the truth of his actions, is accurate. I am hoping the viewpoint and perspective of folks who know this road will help him make some glaring realizations.

Anyway, it’s been over a month since I’ve posted. Husband has been home for that long. It had been up and down as far as my emotions internally, both of us remain in IC. He had been mostly apologetic, doing anything he could for me, completing projects in our home, going out of his way to do everything in the household (laundry, dishes, meals, cleaning, etc). He kept saying “whatever you need me to do I will do”. I was mostly keeping my emotions at bay, even allowed him to give me massages (don’t ask me why, I have no clue). I was allowing him to sleep in our bed again. I was opening up to the idea of at least staying friends, even if the marriage won’t continue. I was trying to also maintain a sense of peace and normalcy because our daughter was home from college during this time and our son lives at home full time as well. And really some normalcy gave me a break from the insane reality of what had happened.

Even decided to go to Christmas together at my parents’ house, with my sister there. I actually was totally fine that day and had no problems whatsoever. Which I find incredibly odd. But this was only 3 days after he returned home from being gone for 2 months after the first DDAY.

Fast forward a month, to this past Monday. We were in the first session with new MC. (First MC wasn’t a good fit after 2 sessions; she didn’t seem to appreciate the gravity of what he had done with my sister, and also seemed like she was suggesting my sister could have had some fault). He was explaining to the MC what he had done with my sister and new wording came out. Wording I had not heard before, that seemed to give YET ANOTHER different spin on what happened. I won’t get into gory details, but in the latest iteration my sister wasn’t a bystander. She egged this on, and encouraged it, and even took steps to make it continue after husband apparently paused in his “behavior”. (insert vomit emoji here). It was disturbing to learn he actually stopped what he was doing, and then at her encouragement decided to MAKE THE CHOICE to keep going. He says he has already been over this detail with his IC months ago, who had been encouraging him to tell me the whole truth. Husband says he didn’t want to because he didn’t want to “throw her under the bus” and/or make it seem like he was trying to place any responsibility on her. He recognizes he was the adult and he should have never allowed any of this to occur. He said therapist told him to tell me once we were in MC. So he was in my eyes protecting her in a sense.

Folks, I know she was 16. I know this is all on him. But goddamn I am struggling because I learned that she had apparently kept coming over to our house well into the time she was 18, only when she knew I would be at work. He swears nothing happened, no inappropriate convo, they watched movies, etc. I DON’T BELIEVE A WORD HE SAYS AT THIS POINT. There have been SO many times over the past 20 YEARS that she has acted like they are great friends and inlaws, even having him be in her wedding. SO MANY THINGS that now I look back on and it makes so much more sense. And let’s not forget she (and obviously he) had part in keeping this all from me for 20 years, taking away my ability to decide how to proceed with my life given what had happened. My choice was taken from me!

I have not asked my sister yet. I wanted to wait until I had a chance to process with my IC the best way to approach her. And ask my IC if in her opinion my sister had ANY culpability in any of this. She does not feel that at 16 or even 18 really, that my sister was at fault for her actions THEN. Power imbalance existed because of age at the very least. However, she feels that my sister hasn’t been 16 all this time, and should have told me the truth. Especially when she told me in SEPT about all of this to begin with, she should have come out with it then. Upon further explanation about how my sister is in general, IC felt that she wasn’t able to admit her role and quite possibly is stuck in a teenager’s mentality in a lot of ways i.e. self-centered, but is also possibly traumatized, possibly guilt ridden. I may not get the truth from her

I do believe that my sister was capable of doing what my husband said she did. But I also recognize that by nature teenagers inherently don’t always make good choices and do stupid things, under even the most normal circumstances. I give her teenage self all the leeway in the world and forgiveness, but I am struggling with her adult self not telling me, and worse, keeping a close familial relationship with him as if nothing had ever been weird between them. She had every option to avoid family events, not come to someone's house, etc.

Please help me wrap my very exhausted brain and psyche around this. I am truly hanging by a thread at this point and feel so hopeless about all of it. Thank you all so much if you read this far. I so appreciate your responses.

Unreal, this is the first time I've read your thread. I am so very sorry for everything you are facing.

I, too, am a CSA survivor. And the product of a similarly f*cked up FOO. (Family of Origin). I am saddened, but not even a tiny bit surprised by the latest revelation from your H about the situation w/your sister. LifeDestroyer called it on page 2. Your sister DESPERATELY wants this to just go away. She did not want to stir things up further. I think, looking back at the way many old family secrets in my life came out, she confessed this to you at a time of upheaval and guilt in her own mind/heart. She confessed enough to relieve the mounting pressure inside her. But what often happens when we reach that boiling point and hit the release valve is that the pressure subsides and our old coping mechanisms kick back in. She saw things unfolding that she hadn't anticipated. You reacted from the place where you are now.

You are RIGHTLY outraged. Rightly feeling betrayed by everyone. And rightly feeling outraged on your sister's behalf. Your parents doubled down on their sick defense mechanisms. Your H just wants his life back.

And so your sister just stuffed everything back down and put on the "I'm Fine" mask. Because she hadn't figured on all this happening.

It is absolutely okay for you to be angry with her. My sister attempted suicide a little over 5 years ago. And it has been so difficult for me to figure out where to put my anger when it was justified in some situations. Because she has been so fragile. She endured more abuse than me or my brother to protect us. How could I be angry at her about anything? But I've had to learn to validate myself and my own emotions.

So again, it's okay that you are angry at your sister. And it will be okay for you to express that to her at some point. But in this immediate aftermath, I think it's critical for you to find your solid ground to stand on. Take care of you. Because what you are doing is attacking a very sick family system. And I learned in nursing school about family systems. When a dysfunctional system is in place, it tends to stay the same until one member changes. And as that one member changes, the rest of the members begin to amp up their roles, in order to force the "misbehaving" member back into his/her assigned role. Everybody just wants the system back like it used to be. You are the one with the power to change your circumstances. It will not be easy. They will (and obviously have) resist every single incremental change. There may be a point at which you have to remove yourself completely from the system (ie, the family) in order to maintain your sanity and health. I hope and pray it does not come to that.

When you speak with your sister, be sure to continue to stress your support of 16 year old her while being rightfully upset with her adult decisions. But find some grace for her in that it's very unlikely she made conscious decisions to hurt you in keeping this secret. All of her behavior is consistent with a CSA survivor. Even though you didn't behave the same way. As I said earlier, my sister and I grew up in the same sick system but acted out in very different ways.

Again, I am so sorry for you and for your sister. I feel for everyone in your family because it didn't happen in a vacuum. Hurt people hurt people. It likely goes back for generations. You can break the chain for your children.

You say you don't believe a word he says, yet you believe your sister did as he says.

It's very possible he is lying. She was 16. He most likely IS lying.

He's trying to shift some of the blame to her,because he doesn't like being the bad guy.

I'm surprised you are still with him.

URL, you should read back on this thread and see that he's been attempting to shift blame away from himself this entire time. See that this is NORMAL justification that predators use against their victims. Unless you left something big out, there's nothing really new here. It sounds like he's saying, "Can you BELIEVE she kept coming around and acting like everything was NORMAL after what I did? As if she was asking for it?" Well, DUH! Everyone around her told her to act normal and so she did. Everyone told her what he did was normal and that he was still trustworthy. And so she trusted him and continued their relationship just as it had been before the incident. Again, unless you left something out, it doesn't sound like she threw herself at him. It doesn't sound like she egged him on in any way. It doesn't even make sense that she could egg him on AFTER the incident occurred already. It sounds like he's doing his absolute best to shift responsibility away from himself and on to her and like I've said - that's very dangerous. That means there isn't much stopping him from getting "mixed signals" from a teen or adult woman in the future and deciding to come on to her too. Until he can accept full responsibility for his actions, regardless of what your sister did or didn't do, he is not safe.

I'd also like to point out - it didn't matter if she came over. Your WH was the adult. He could have said no. He could've kicked her out. Instead he welcomed her with open arms and kept watching movies with her. From an affair standpoint, we consider that a continuation of the affair. It's feeding the fantasy. It doesn't matter if things stayed platonic at that point because the only correct move for your WH was to shut it down and distance himself from her to end the inappropriate relationship from his side. He did not do that and that is not your sister's fault. It is not your sister's responsibility to keep him from being unfaithful to you. It is his and only his responsibility. So no, she does not have some fault in this as far as your marriage is concerned.

And I agree with Hellfire - why are you so ready to believe him over your sister? Do you think your sister is lying now? Why are you so quick to assume that your sister did something nefarious when all you can point to is that she kept hanging out with him and nothing more happened? It could have happened if she wanted it to so doesn't this actually lend more credibility in her favor that she didn't want any sexual contact from him to begin with?

So much to address here, so I’ll break it down here point by point.

1- I’m not surprised you spent the holidays with both your sister and husband. Your family is so invested in the idea that you rugsweep everything and pretend nothing happened that this was practically inevitable— you felt fine going there with your husband because the alternative was to admit that something was wrong. After all, during Thanksgiving, you and your sister were getting blamed for this debacle while your Mom was calling to check up on him!

Also, I doubt that your brother-in-law has any idea that your husband had a sexual relationship with his wife, so you showing up solo or not at all would’ve raised a lot of uncomfortable questions.

2 - OF COURSE your husband is portraying your sister as the seductress... the alternative is to admit he’s a creep and a predator. He’s such a cliche that there’s a classic novel with that very notion as the premise. Your sister may have been infatuated with him, but he took advantage of her trust and her feelings for him. If he wasn’t screwing around with her, there would be no reason for them to only hang out while you were working.

3- Don’t bother confronting your sister with his latest revelations. She doesn’t need to be subjected to his victim-blaming. She’s also having marriage problems of her own at the moment. You may not get the full truth for that reason.

4- Avoid reading or participating on his SI threads.

5- Being a good husband and helping you around the house are all things he should’ve been doing anyway and they also have nothing to do with rebuilding your trust. The next time he utters any variation of the phrase “anything you want me to do, I’ll do it,” or, when he’s a less generous mood, “I don’t know what to do to fix this” your response should be: “You figured out how to groom my sister and abuse her for years; you can spend the same time and effort to figure out to help me.”

6- Last but not least, I do not see the point in marriage counseling at this time. The main reason is that, even if you’re not ready to divorce, you shouldn’t be steering the ship toward reconciliation.

At the very least, come to a decision about your marriage on your own with the help of an individual counselor who will support YOU and isn’t invested in saving your marriage. Another reason marriage counseling is a fool’s exercise is that It’s obvious that he is using the counselor’s office as a safe space to manipulate and spin his bullshit version of events.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:17 AM, February 1st (Monday)]

HFSSC: Thank you! Yes, it is suckier by the day. Now that I have had a week to process this, and get all my anger out, I have decided that although I was angry initially at my sister, my thinking compassionate brain has kicked back in. She was a teenager, and also had other things against her that affected her ability to make appropriate decisions. I also do not feel like I am going to come at her in any way even for keeping this from me for years. I am however going to ask her to be honest with me about what happened and her feelings back then, so I can stop wondering and just have closure around that. I don’t think she was being malicious in her intentions, but was acting from her own brokenness, which I am quite familiar with myself. I have had an affair which stabbed my friend in the back, and I was an adult. Who am I to point the finger right?!

And I totally agree, this came out impulsively on her part. It was in the middle of a MAJOR upheaval in her life that I won’t put on here only because my husband may read it and it’s none of his damn business what’s happening in her personal life. She said right away she couldn’t believe she told me and regretted it immediately. I know it traumatized her to even tell me by the way she acted as it was coming out.

Dysfunctional family systems. Yes! I have been trying for quite some time before this to correct/call out some things in our family regarding my parents, my mother specifically. I have always been the one to call her out on her shit, but when I do I am the asshole. My sisters feel the same way they just don’t tell her. In fact last night to add insult to injury she informed me I should tell my kids all our marital woes or she is going to. What a sick person to want to cause her grandchildren pain. And all because I called her out on some truths that she doesn’t want to face. TOXIC!

Thank you for sharing about your sister. It’s so hard to want to ask them to face things when we know they are in pain.

Hellfire: I am still “with him” in the sense of yes we are still residing in the same home. Because this isn’t a situation where I can just get up and go. I’m not 25, with a great job and lots of friends who I could crash at who are single with no kids, etc. I have no where to go but a hotel, and most importantly I’m not ready to share with my kids what is happening. All they know is we are having “marital problems”. I am speaking with the therapists in our life on how to best go about that. Sometimes it isn’t just about ourselves. I have to think of other people beside myself.

I have already told him this past week I don’t want to stay in the marriage, and he is sleeping in a guest room.

I do not believe my husband has fully told me everything, that’s true, but I also believe that what he says happened with my sister happened.

Neko:

Yes, I agree with you and I have told him so in many ways, that this was all his fault, and he as the adult had the responsibility to put a stop to it, at many points.

Bluer:

You said “This type of behavior NEVER exists in a vacuum. If you had some time and space from him, I'm sure you would recall many moments-- even if they seemed inconsequential at the time -- that he made you feel small or tried to keep you in a box.”

You are correct. Having had some time now to reflect, I feel he has made subtle attempts to control me, mostly after my affair. Prior to that not so much.

According to my sister, her husband does in fact know everything.

Although you don’t see the point in marriage counseling, for me it is to process and handle the moves forward in the healthiest way possible. Sometimes marriage counseling is no longer to keep the marriage but to help with the issues that need to be faced as people work towards separation, divorce, dealing with the kids etc. I told husband and MC that at our last session. She agrees that yes she can help in that aspect if I have decided to not stay in the marriage. As I’m sure you know this process will be lengthy, difficult, and full of opposition. I need all the help I can get!

He has seemingly made a lot of progress this week, finally coming around to feeling his role and taking full responsibility. He seems to totally understand and appreciate and take responsibility for what he has done and the gravity of it.

I have told him as long as he does not become defensive and try to throw stuff from my affair in my face when we are talking about him, then we can continue to have conversations.

He has said his focus moving forward will be to be there when I need to express myself or ask questions. He wants to help me do whatever I need to do to move on, whether that's with him or not.

I am hoping this sticks so I can get out of the very painful place I am in, because when he takes full responsibility and doesn't defend himself, I for some reason do not get angry. I feel validated and like he finally gets it. I think it's critical for a BS to get this from the WS. He seems to really feel remorseful.

I'm sure some will question and tell me to give it time he will pivot, but I already feel that. I am trying to crawl out of this misery and I need every "win" I can get folks.

[This message edited by Unreallife2020 at 1:57 PM, February 2nd (Tuesday)]

Duplicate

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 5:59 AM, February 4th (Thursday)]

I really don't mean to throw a wet sock on your cake, but I think your husband is just learning how to say what he knows you want to hear. A man who has been lying to you for years (and likely still lying to you) and who abused you in the past didn't just grow a conscience over night.

This is why I said it way too early to be in marriage counseling. Even if you want a marriage counselor to help facilitate divorce, there still needs to be a baseline of trust for marriage counseling to be constructive, which you don't have.

And I reiterate... the focus needs to be on YOU right now. You need counseling that is going to put you first. You need to get objective feedback and advice, especially since you have no one in real life who is willing or able to give you emotional support.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:03 AM, February 4th (Thursday)]

I agree with Blue. Which isn't to say it's impossible that he's now seeing the light but please, be careful. He sort of did this before and then revealed that he was telling the IC and now MC different narratives than he was telling you. It sounds like he has a high propensity for manipulation so keep your guard up and expect the mask to slip again at some point.

I'm sure some will question and tell me to give it time he will pivot, but I already feel that. I am trying to crawl out of this misery and I need every "win" I can get folks.

It's not a loss if this new attitude turns out to be fake. It's not really a win either if it's real. What he does or doesn't do is not connected to your own personal victory or loss within yourself. What's a win for you right now is to heal, focus on yourself, and set some boundaries with anyone who is harmful like your parents. If he backslide, you will do what's best for you. And if he comes around, you will still do what is best for you. Doing things in your own best interest is the win. Not whatever he's doing.

Yeah Neko and Blue, I know. I see how these things go. I am just trying to see a positive where I can. I do have my own IC, although I'm not sure it's the best fit. She's super nice and validating, but does not give me any homework, does not offer solutions/advice I don't already know about, and it feels more like I come in every week or two and just tell her the latest shitty thing that happened. I think I need to start looking elsewhere because I still truly feel stuck after seeing her for 4 months. I did tell her I feel stuck still and not making progress and she keeps saying these are early days yet, and I keep receiving new painful information. We are hemorrhaging money on therapists at this point, so I really do need them to be on point.

My mother continues to be a real piece of work, so that will unfortunately take precedent at the next session.

I feel very unmotivated these days. I actually was in bed from 9pm last night until 10 am. Not sleeping the whole time, just laying there. I know that's not healthy yet I can't make myself care.

I want to make steps to move towards a lawyer, but I can't make myself just make the stupid call. And I find myself sliding into the mindset of just accepting this and continuing on for the sake of my kids and just because it will be easier on me in that no real change on anyone's part has to occur. Ughh, I just feel lazy and sad and unmotivated. BSs---did you experience this and how did you get out of it? I don't want to sit in this misery but I cant make myself leave it either.

I facetimed my sister last night, which was the first conversation with her since finding out she may have taken part in what happened 20 years ago. I actually have no anger towards her at all. I had called her to talk about our mother and warn her of our mother threatening to tell MY kids about what happened.

In regards to the past, I said I wanted to have a conversation when both of us don't have much else going on. She kind of laughed, like when would that be? She's a teacher and understandably stressed with the crazy pandemic teaching situation, amongst her own marital issues, etc.

I feel no urgency at this point to talk to her about it. I hope that means I am in a better place with her, and not that it's just another symptom of impending depression or something.

I think getting a new IC is a great idea. Your IC should at least be giving you some advice and options on how to set boundaries with your mother. That is a clear and immediate threat that needs to be contained.

As for the depression, there's no way around it. Only through it. You simply have to pick up the phone and dial. Make it a goal every day until you do it. Just remember - you're not committing to anything just because you have an appointment. You need the information to protect yourself even if you don't file. Even if you do go back to normal and suppress this, who's to say that your husband won't meet another OW at some point? One who is far more receptive to any move that he makes? Life isn't just going to go back to normal just because you want it to and the risk of you finding out more or him doing it again is there.

I also want to point out - normal doesn't even sound good for you. Normal involves you continuing to swallow your pain. It involves a lack of healing. It involves your husband being held on a pedestal and given a forgiveness that was not extended to you. By himself and by others. It involves your mother overstepping her place and threatening your family. Why would you want to go back to that? You owe it to yourself and to your kids to change that normality regardless of what happens in your marriage.

I think you didn’t air things out with your sister because you’re afraid of learning more. I’m sure you want to avoid hurting her as well.

Everything about your posts screams that you just want to sweep this under the rug and forget about it, but an elephant this huge cannot simply be ignored... nor will you ever find a way to comfortably live with it.

Your husband has caused you and your family so much harm and put you in a near-impossible situation. I don’t wish you would just leave him... I wish he had the decency to recognize he doesn’t deserve his marriage, he’s a toxic person, and make the decision to divorce you and provide a settlement that favors you.

But if he was the type of person to be that selfless and humble, you wouldn’t need to be here.

You mentioned that one of your conditions is for him to join SI. Has he joined yet?

It's too bad he knows about this site - be careful what you post - not just about your sister, but info that he could use to screw you over.

Well he was going to come on and had a post typed up but I said not to post because I'm not sure he can handle the responses he's going to get. I need him to be able to function to work his job because he's the only income. I know he would get mired down in this site if he started on here. IDK, I may still ask him too though since it's been a few weeks since the last Day. Things are calmer at home for the most part.

Part of me is feeling a rugsweeping going on on my part in some ways because I just don't want to deal with it. I mean I'm going to IC, he is too, and we are going to MC so that's not total rugs weeping I guess. I just can't handle every day living and breathing infidelity talk because it's so draining and painful.

On a positive note I did call our EAP and get info for an attorney. I get a free one hour consultation and then 35% off services after that. Any suggestions for what to ask at that initial appointment? Anything that you wished you had asked?