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There's also the risk,if you answer the question, that it will cause your wife to get upset by our responses..so you're turning the question around to us. It's a classic,to answer a question with a question.

Please consider that I could have declined your request or just ignored it and what it implies that I didn’t.

Your response was a non response. Turning the question around is a non response.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:19 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

Obviously, you aren't required to respond to any question.

You seem to be tired of hearing people bring up some of her biggest fumbles. My thinking was..if she's finally doing the work necessary, and all that entails, it might shift a large part of the negative focus off of her "then," to what she's doing now.

You rejected the attempt, because you don't want to hear people telling you that she should do more. Or,as you said, telling you it's not enough.

Do you think it's enough? That's all that matters.

I told you that I would respond, that it would be delayed, and I made the request for some context to be brought in to help frame the discussion because, frankly, I would be annoyed to write it all out and just hear "not enough". It’s not about her, that is me.

And yes, so far I have not given a response, but my request for the forum to give some feedback is still in progress and I still haven’t found time to write out a response to that even if they had. Not that it’s my job to manage it, but you seem upset.

If you prefer to flip the question you asked to just "do I think it’s enough", then I can answer in good conscience that I see enough to keep risking.

I had to also find the toxic ways of thinking that caused some of my behaviors. I catastrophized a lot, felt rejected easily, chaos was my baseline and if things were too neat or easy I was extremely uncomfortable, I was a perfectionist and a people pleaser (the hardest two for me to get over but so important to get to the vulnerability needed to have an emotionally fulfilling relationship)

HikingOut: this paragraph feels familiar. Not a perfect match for my wife, but close enough for discomfort. Was there a common root cause you found for all those traits or do you find that they just came individually (which would seem odd given the similarities with my wife)? Thanks.

I’m not the least bit surprised that InkHulk may not be super motivated to "prove" his wife’s progress to the group right now. When he’s mentioned growth or change or progress in the recent past (and he has, I’m curious too and have been paying attention), it has typically been met with no small amount of skepticism and dismissal, rugsweeping accusations, and reminders of her past behaviour (as though he is not acutely aware). He’s had nods of approval type comments too, but my own experience is that those don’t tend to be the ones that stick out in your memory. My guess, is that he likely feels that there isn’t much he can say that will not be met with further skepticism, outright criticism (of him or his wife), or allegations of rugsweeping. Indeed, certain posters have already signaled that they want this information because they don’t trust his ability to hold her accountable. In his prior thread, he asked to drop the various calls to require her to start posting here in order to "prove herself" on the basis that he was satisfied with her current efforts elsewhere. And yet here we are again (on a thread that was originally about InkHulk’s own processing of some of his thoughts/feelings about the A).

I’m not writing any of this as a call-out of anyone (Hellfire, I appreciate your posts were the most recent but I'm not directing this at you specifically). More a reminder of the fact that he has just tiptoed back from the literal brink of divorce, and has made the decision to work towards R. As I'm sure most of us who have been in that position will recall, his marriage is likely incredibly fragile at the moment. His current goal is to save it, and so it makes sense to me that he's being a little outwardly protective at the moment. I’m not suggesting anyone here has made comments in anything other than the best of faith. Truly, it is a testament to this place how many people have supported Inkhulk through his journey thus far. However, like anyone that has made the decision to R, he has decided to extend her grace at a time when she probably doesn’t (yet) deserve it, in the hopes that one day she will come to. If he can do so, I hope we can too.

[This message edited by emergent8 at 11:24 PM, Tuesday, September 19th]

I can understand what emergent is saying about how Ink must be feeling. Have definitely felt that way myself. It weirdly puts you on the same page as your WS where your trying to describe their activities in their best light. Not sure if that’s good or bad.

Hiking out: I had the exact same response as InkJulk where that exact paragraph sounded so very familiar. I also wanted to ask about it. I wondered —and have wondered—why the people pleasing doesn’t extend to your spouse during the A. Wondering where you think it intersects with respect for your spouse. Like is there any respect for your spouse or is the people pleasing just for non spouse people.

Appreciate the backup, emergent, but I’m also not intending to make this a big thing. There are no fires that will be put out by me answering this so I’m not on the clock. I’m genuinely interested to get feedback from people on what are some realistic expectations, not just an "idealized" state. Emergent is correct, I’ve attempted in the past to communicate elements of this and it goes over like a lead balloon (I know it’s not unanimous, but again emergent is correct that the negatives stick). But I’m also willing to keep discussing. I’m just taking my time on this particular one, and frankly reserve the right to change my mind if that seems best to me in the future. If it matters at all, what I choose to talk about here has not taken into account my wife getting upset. After the A and all my family’s secrets spilled to a lowlife who knows my kids and where I live for the purposes of carrying out an illicit relationship , I claim full rights to discuss this is anyway I want in an anonymous forum for the purposes of my own healing. If she needs to get pissed about that, so be it. But to be clear, she hasn’t since D-Day 2.

It weirdly puts you on the same page as your WS where your trying to describe their activities in their best light.

There was a time in the earlier days, where I recall trying to post in the R forum about something that had come up and that was bothering me. What I was looking for was support and advice, but I was also triggered and frustrated with him, and did NOT have it in my to defend my husband or the marriage in the moment. My husband WAS doing the work, but as I found myself typing that out and providing examples to ward off those types of comments, I remember being so resentful for having to do so that I ended up deleting the entire post, and stewing on it alone. I know this happened more than once.

HikingOut: this paragraph feels familiar. Not a perfect match for my wife, but close enough for discomfort. Was there a common root cause you found for all those traits or do you find that they just came individually (which would seem odd given the similarities with my wife)? Thanks.

I said it earlier in this thread. People who have selfish tendencies have the same root cause as people with overly selfless tendencies. In both cases it’s a void they are trying to fill by either directly asking for things from you to have you prove your love, or by doing so much for you to gain and keep your love.

A people pleaser is not a selfless person. They are often an avoidant person who hustles and says yes and tries to keep you having good feelings towards them. The problem over a long term relationship is we tend to keep over giving more and more because we are getting less back of what we are seeking in return. And then we begin to resent it, and that resentment festers into feelings of entitlement or the need to abandon ship. (I have openly mentioned I was having an exit affair) They become toxic in their people pleasing, tending to drown out their needs and abandon themselves to please the other person and then blame the other person for taking too much.

That’s only in the surface. The truth is we aren’t receiving our partners love because we don’t feel worthy of it - not because they aren’t in actuality giving it.

Every single relationship we have mirrors the relationships we have with ourselves . If we love, respect ourselves we can give and receive it with others. If we have nothing but ridicule or harshness with ourselves, then we exchange that with others. If we will betray ourselves by not honoring our agreements, and even often what’s best for us then we will give that too. And so forth.

She needs to learn to look at her shame. Where it comes from, the ways it affects her, so if you can dissipate that and then you can begin to accept the darker and lighter parts of yourself in a loving and healing way. Loving yourself and developing an understanding that comes from aligning fully with your values and authentic self. These are big picture sweeping views of course.

Getting there takes a lot of intentional healing, a loss of identifying with one’s ego, and understanding your inherent worth and divine love. I hope that wasn’t too flowery to follow but the trenches of healing are deep, personal extractions and they look different for everyone. It took me a lot of quiet reflections and therapy to decorate my being with love. I found for me that is my guiding star for everything I do as much as I can be conscious over it - am I doing this out of love or to get love? It’s about being present and not living out these negative stories my mind loves to weave. It’s about telling yourself new stories that are filled with hope and grace. It’s transcending this shell of a person you have become and creating genuine fulfillment. I am not perfect at it, and I fall in and out of it, but the more I practice the longer periods I am in that better headspace, and the easier it is to pull myself there.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:39 AM, Wednesday, September 20th]

Thanks, HikingOut, that was really well spoken and useful to me, and I’m sure many others.

I have two immediate thoughts to that and how it relates to where my wife and my R journey is at this point.

That’s only in the surface. The truth is we aren’t receiving our partners love because we don’t feel worthy of it - not because they aren’t in actuality giving it.

I can absolutely see truth in this statement in our case. And it’s also true that our marriage dynamics issues were not one sided. I’m guessing you’d entirely agree, but I want to make it explicit that our life was not a case of her being a FOO-fucked basket case while I was a patient saint constantly offering love that she failed to recognize. I did not have an affair, but as a communication tool to this community it might be helpful for you to think of my story like a Madhatter one.

Loving yourself and developing an understanding that comes from aligning fully with your values and authentic self. These are big picture sweeping views of course.

It’s about being present and not living out these negative stories my mind loves to weave. It’s about telling yourself new stories that are filled with hope and grace. It’s transcending this shell of a person you have become and creating genuine fulfillment.

The funny thing about the most important elements of her work that I see the MOST encouraging progress in, it’s that she is telling me no sometimes. It’s that she is showing me when she is upset and pushing back at me. And that isn’t all. You all already know about therapy and more therapy and writing and books and no contact and STD tests. But the things that I am seeing that make me stand up and take notice is she is acting like a self respecting person. And that means that I get told no about some things and that even in this difficult season she has had to stand up for herself. And she has done it really poorly at times, but she’s like a baby learning to walk with it, she’s figuring it out. Now is that "moving mountains" for me? It’s not. I’ve found my greatest personal healing resources here and in IC. Mostly here, which I then take to IC and make sure you internet strangers aren’t smoking crack But for R, she’s becoming a real solid dance partner. There is something there to push off from that wasn’t there before. I’m not sure how to say that better.

The problem here is that it's not just remorseful WS who make bad choices and stumble upon during the first few years of reconciliation. Such setbacks are not only seen in successful reconciliation stories. These setbacks of WS are also seen in failed reconciliation stories. Even non remorseful WS stumbles upon and makes bad choices during reconciliation. Right now, we have no idea what category Ink's wife belongs to. Based on little details ink has given to us about his wife's 'work', we can not decisively say to which category she belongs. Just like ink has every right to defend his wife until she gives him no reason to defend her, we also have every right to be skeptical of his wife until she stops making 'bad' decisions and continues to make 'good' decisions that not only take marriage out of infidelity but make it stronger and happier.

Based on a few poster's posts in this thread, I feel it takes 1-2 years for WS to make this transition. If transition fails, R fails. And, many WS do fail in this transition. So, naturally, SI members' skepticism of Ink's wife, atleast, for the first 2 years is acceptable and should be welcomed.

Remember, a combination of BS love for WS and WS ability for manipulation and gaslighting is a very bad mixture for R. So, a BS needs an independent voice of reason and skepticism to counter such a mixture. So, ink's fear for skepticism is a matter of concern.

Anyway, good luck to you. I am sorry if I made you or your wife feel uncomfortable. I promise you that you wont get any skeptical/critical posts from me anymore.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 11:15 AM, Wednesday, September 20th]

So, ink's fear for skepticism is a matter of concern.

Lurking, I appreciate everything about your post except this. I have told a lot about my wife. While you might need to sort thru my philosophical meanderings, but it’s there. And I’ve agreed here again to talk about it again. I literally invited my toughest critic to not abandon his message to me, and it’s precisely because I care about the value of different perspectives. To say I’m afraid of critique seems absurd to me, show me someone who has leaned into it more.
There is dissonance on the board about what "good" looks like. I heard messages in the first weeks that told me that my wife was a hopeless case because she hadn’t completed "the work" and done everything under the sun to heal me. Yet here I am a year out and I’m hearing from WOES and HikingOut that their journey was much more complex and drawn out than that. This is a complex issue and I’m learning still. No question that her lying to me was wrong and unacceptable, and it almost ship wrecked us completely. But it’s still just more complicated than that. This complexity is the reason I’ve chosen to be less specific in my posts. I’m in deep fucking waters right now and I’m doing the best I can. What I am not doing is dodging contrary perspectives.

1) On people-pleasing, my W said, in essence, she knew I was in her corner, even though she didn't deserve me, but ow was making demands to her face. She had to choose between, um, good practice and expediency. People pleasers choose expediency - until they don't, if they're lucky.

Even when I made competing requests, she thought the consequences of saying 'no' to ow would be worse than the consequences of saying 'no' to me.

2) I, too, take 'no' as a step forward. One of the things that most attracted me back in 1965 was W2b's willingness to say 'no'. I've always thought that a 'yes' means so much more when it comes from a person who will say 'no'. An honest 'no' is a good step in getting to something that both partners willingly say 'yes' yo. Without the 'no'- i.e. if one person suppresses a 'no' - you do something that one person wants and the other person doesn't, hardly a good outcome.

The above applies only to explicit 'noes'. Passive-aggressive crap, sabotage, etc. are not signs of healing.

Also, we can count the yeses and noes. If we get too many noes, we have good evidence that we aren't a good fit.

can absolutely see truth in this statement in our case. And it’s also true that our marriage dynamics issues were not one sided. I’m guessing you’d entirely agree, but I want to make it explicit that our life was not a case of her being a FOO-fucked basket case while I was a patient saint constantly offering love that she failed to recognize. I did not have an affair, but as a communication tool to this community it might be helpful for you to think of my story like a Madhatter one.

I get it. (My husband cheated after my affair, we are literally madhatters) everyone has light and dark.

But in response to the actual point you are trying to make- it doesn’t matter that you aren’t perfect. Cheating is not a response to that. You use your words, you ask for what you want, and if it’s important stuff and there is no progress you detach, not go out and have an affair. It’s take toxic thinking, the lacking of character that allows someone to do that. The work is about forming and becoming one with your belief/value system and maintaining alignment with that. Also knowing yourself and what you want and need. People pleasing folks tend to not be in touch with that.

Sure you weren’t perfect. Neither was my husband. That doesn’t mean it brought in the cheating. I will also say sometimes that imbalance in the other person can draw you together because you have the opposite issue. It’s not uncommon to see a people pleaser married to someone who acts more decisively all the way up to someone who is aggressive and all the shades between. So when the people pleaser comes into balance it’s helpful for R for you to look at your balance. That doesn’t express culpability, it’s more just working on the marriage. I am not around enough to know where you guys are. Seems like maybe you are in late stages of recovery and on your way to work on reconciliation so this might or might not be appropriate to be thinking of the changes you need to make for the marriage.

Saying no and acting like someone who respects themselves can be a sign. As sissoon mentioned you may be seeing your wife for the first time if she is communicating and standing up for herself. Sometimes the compatibility is still there and sometimes it’s not. My husband was blown away a few times when I said no or communicated something that I went along with our whole marriage. It can feel sometimes like a new betrayal, because going along to get along can be seen as a lie. I don’t think it was intentional or conscious. Just me needing to fill this role I believed I needed to be in.

But it does indicate to me that she has been uncovering herself and realizing she is responsible for her own happiness. For me that was awkward because I had no idea what I liked or didn’t like, I had buried myself pretty deep to fit this image of who I thought I should or needed to be.

It’s signs she is doing the work. Yes. But as lurkingsoul said, it doesn’t yet speak to where the relationship will go. I guess lurking, sisoon and I are all saying don’t go all in yet. Continue to focus on what you need. You can celebrate progress but take some time to watch consistency and new blooms of growth. This is a good start, not anywhere near the finish line. That’s not skepticism, I do believe redemption and transformation is possible. It’s experience.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:23 PM, Wednesday, September 20th]

I also should have added the people pleasing and perfectionism takes a long time to change. I wouldn’t hyper focus on that. Be aware it’s definitely an area of growth that is needed.

I was years getting better at it and the tendency never went away. I am just conscious of it and manage it differently. But I still show my love through acts of service to a certain degree. It’s taken a lot of practicing being present and aware of motivations.

I never thought of myself as manipulative, but in hindsight I see that’s what I was doing- trying to manipulate the way people saw me by being likeable. There was a lot of deep shit I had to pull out and look at to be okay with being less likeable and more me. That did start in Foo, so we are talking about tendencies I had for 40 or more years of living.

And I will say here is where it wasn’t manipulation: due to always putting what other needs might be first, I truly lost touch with what I wanted or needed to feel fulfilled. You can’t communicate what you don’t know. It took some time and awkwardly searching for the things I needed to make room for in my life. The things that light me up from the inside. And when you find these things, you are less dependent on having other people fill up those spaces.

Anyway, good luck to you. I am sorry if I made you or your wife feel uncomfortable. I promise you that you wont get any skeptical/critical posts from me anymore.

Lurking, this is 100% in the opposite direction I desire from this place, I’m not looking for self-censure to appease me. In case you can’t tell, I’m not a conflict avoidant personality. I don’t seek it out, but I understand its utility and importance and will use it as a tool in the toolbox. I’m honestly a little confused about how this whole topic is going right now. How about this: I re-iterate that I will discuss about my wife’s work in the not so distant future. I’ve started with this last response to HikingOut and it’s probably clear even from that that it’s not going to be a straight forward answer.

Also, we can count the yeses and noes. If we get too many noes, we have good evidence that we aren't a good fit.

As sissoon mentioned you may be seeing your wife for the first time if she is communicating and standing up for herself. Sometimes the compatibility is still there and sometimes it’s not.

I think this is absolutely a possibility, that my wife may actually really emerge as a strong willed woman and one or both of us might not like the other anymore. But that at least is an honest path out of infidelity and towards a well lived life, for both of us.
I don’t think this is likely, but I admit it’s possible. I believe I love more than a ghost. I believe the strength of her finding her own self respect will only be an addition to life. I fully welcome this.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:44 PM, Wednesday, September 20th]

I think this is absolutely a possibility, that my wife may actually really emerge as a strong willed woman and one or both of us might not like the other anymore. But that at least is an honest path out of infidelity and towards a well lived life, for both of us.
I don’t think this is likely, but I admit it’s possible. I believe I love more than a ghost. I believe the strength of her finding her own self respect will only be an addition to life. I fully welcome this.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's better she comes into herself, and the comment about being married to a ghost is apt. I am just careful to balance my replies so whatever resonates will. You know her and you way better than we do.

I will add, my husband wasn't in love a ghost either. I am still the essence of who I have always been, no one changes everything about themselves. I am not perfect, I am fallible, I have dark and light like everyone else. I'm just more self-aware and engaged with myself these days. It's not an unattainable place to come to, and it feels good. I've always thought once you find that, you can continue to follow it and feel even better, more fulfilled. So far this is true for me. I think I had most of these fundamentals down years ago probably somewhere by the end of year two and have just built upon and healed more since then. Very astute, and you do know better than all of us because we only see the glimpses through your perception.

Lurking - I really hope nothing in my post could be construed to suggest that you or anyone else should close your mouth, swallow your concern, and tamp down any healthy skepticism you may have. That was absolutely not my intent. I totally agree that a few months of progress, especially after a year of stonewalling and avoidance, does not guarantee a successful R. InkHulk clearly loves his wife and wants their marriage to succeed, he has also, over the years, likely become habituated to a certain relationship homeostasis that likely has some dysfunction built in, and his comfort in this may not serve him well in R. I absolutely share the concern of some that this sometimes puts him at risk of overlooking some red flags or accepting less than he deserves. I believe that he has been well-served by the voices here that have urged him not to ignore those issues, I hope he continues to hear those voices moving forward.

I guess the point of my post, is to encourage posters to not let their (reasonable) wariness prevent InkHulk from being able to acknowledge and celebrate progress. I am not saying, "back off stop holding his (or her!) feet to the fire", I’m just suggesting a little balance in light of the current path he is on. I don't think we (or he) should assume that just because WOEZ or HikingOut had shitshow first years post-D-Day we should assume that it's normal, healthy, or acceptable for a BS to sign up for that. I'm just hoping that we can support him as much in his current journey as we have in the previous ones.