SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Blaming the BS for the A is , to me, like shooting the wounded.

Agreed, she's a charlatan.

Always reminds me of the true detective quote, though a different context.

well, that's what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. Then he tells you it's a virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that,

She panders to the normalization of the infidelity crowd as if it were nothing more than selling a cheap romance novel about cheating. One of the big aha! moments to those reeling from infidelity that she promotes is that cheating has nothing to do with the betrayed, but the liberation of the cheater discovering a new or former sense self and a conquest to feel alive again. The media and critics seem to praise her for this as if it is some groundbreaking concept in behavioral science. It's puke worthy

I will never understand celebrating the full adoption of narc tendencies that are exhibited in cheaters - lying, deception, gas lighting, emotional and financial abuse, extreme selfishness, the breaking of vows and contracts, and the utter lack of concern for collateral damage of all kinds....are not really traits that we should be rooting for in society. It’s all very dark triad personality traits. It’s asinine to church it up, but she does so with a romantic paint brush without ever really addressing the cost. In fact, these are traits that have been condemned for most of human history for a reason.

Too bad Bernie Madoff didn’t get his hands on her investment accounts - after all he was just in search of a new self. I mean Madoffs joys of stealing other people’s money was real to him; and we should try to be more understanding of that. Barf again! Its sympathy for the crook and at worst it’s used as justification that should be celebrated. Its snake oil and she sales bullshit to guilty people and there are a lot of cheaters out there that are happy to buy it up. This niche of work is nothing new (The devil created the craft), and it’s hazards are well discussed through all sorts of historical literature relating to integrity or morality.

Her content does not promote accountability and without accountability I don’t know how you promote healing. It’s not shocking that the business of selling a lack of accountability – sales at a high volume.

Cheating in a nutshell is a much more analytical and evidence-based account of the subject. It doesn’t romanticize a damn thing about things that shouldn’t be romanticized. Funny how that works, isn’t it.

Her version of cheating does not work for me. As Fit writes, it justifies things I cannot in good conscience support.

It’s one thing to end a relationship and treat one’s partner as fairly as one can in the circumstances. Even that has pain associated with it. It’s another to lie, expose one’s partner to potentially fatal stds, commit financial fraud and abuse by diverting joint assets and even if still having sex with spouse or partner, that sex is not consensual because the spouse/partner did not agree to sex with someone who was having sex with other people. And the list goes on.

I have said this before and I will say it again. Warning Sarcasm Incoming. I like nice shoes and handbags. I believe I deserve an upgrade. Maybe some red bottom pumps and a bag that begins with a B. So I go into stores and fulfill myself without paying for my little handbag and those classy shoes. I was just making myself happier. More fulfilled. Exploring my fashion sense. Someone else pays for the damages. Just like society pays for physical, emotional and spiritual damage and trauma cheaters dish out. Her theory falls apart at the moral level.

I made a promise to ex wh. I kept it. He didn’t. He hurt people in ways that left deep and lasting intergenerational scars.

I have no patience for EP. I am even so petty as to be unmoved if, for example, her publisher teaches her a moral lesson and absconds with the $$$ she is making from peddling this snake oil. I say "until it happens to you".

Also show me evidence where trauma makes a person better. Learning would be taking a class with my spouse in communication or sexual health for couples. Or me taking a class with or without them in nutrition, or me going to therapy to resolve some other trauma. Communication would be my spouse telling me how my behavior affects them and while owning their own part.

Trauma is what a lot of use went through with infidelity. I don’t need to elaborate.

So yea. Her version of the bs benefitting from infidelity betrayal does not work for me.

I completely agree.

Her arguments can be applied to almost any situation. I would love to see if she had the balls to write: domestic abuse doesn't have to be the end of your relationship.

She wouldn't because she clearly doesn't see cheating as abuse. This is anti anti-scienctfic view. Evidence is clear as day that victims of abuse show PTSD markers online with what you'd expect from a person escaping a physically abusive relationship.

I haven't read her whole body of work, but what I've read looks more like reporting than advocating - IOW, she writes about the way things are, not about the way things ought to be.

As I say, I've read only a small portion of her body of work and watched a small portion of her videos.

I write because IMO it's possible that people have jumped to conclusions, and that's something that is best avoided.

I haven't read her whole body of work, but what I've read looks more like reporting than advocating - IOW, she writes about the way things are, not about the way things ought to be.

Yes what I have read has been more about what she has seen in the couples she works with rather than advocating that it’s a healthy thing to do.

Personally, I don’t think she is helpful for couples who are new to dealing with the infidelity. Her idealism would be a slap in the face to a bs who is still reeling from having their world broken.

And I agree accountability need to take place deeply in the ws first.

However, as I worked towards personal healing years later, it’s not really I found she was trying to normalize what I did but put a frame of understanding around it that would allow me to start working towards self compassion.

For a remorseful ws, that stage is very important because carrying around a great amount of shame keeps the "I am bad, I am not worthy" narrative and that’s how I got unhealthy enough to choose to do it in the first place. Part of the healing process for those who reconcile is finding the compassion in the situation so you can move forward with growing your love and connection again. I don’t think reconciling require forgiveness, but it does require softening- both from the ws to themselves as well as the bs to the ws.

I have not seen her blame the bs. I have consistently seen her say "the ws was looking to meet a different version of themselves" which, I think is true for some ws. Many people here talk about how their ws wanted to think they were younger, more interesting, sexier, more important, etc. having an affair does not get you that in a genuine way, more in a false way that can make you reliant on it. . But it does reveal areas the ws hasn’t taken care of in their life.

I think a lot of my work surrounded finding what I was looking for in my affair but using healthier ways to get that same feeling. For example, I wanted to feel younger and sexier, so I started exercising and eating better. Then I felt that way without needing any validation from anyone else. Now I know the only way to feel that way is to truly do something that promotes that reatger than having someone telling me a lot of bullshit and me doing a lot of pretending.

So I do not think she is for people that are in their early days but she does help illuminate the human nature behind it and helps mend the compassion for the person rather than promoting compassion for the actual act of cheating.

I have not engaged with a lot of her work, but what I have engaged with was helpful at the stage I was at. I think it would have been detrimental had I read it earlier and tried to cite any of that to my traumatized husband.

Anyway, I wouldn’t recommend it for early days, or for ws who have narcissism or are unremorseful. But for someone who wanted to die because she was so unworthy of her life, it did help me understand more of what I was seeking in order to make sure that I am providing those things for myself in a way that actually improves my life and relationships.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:25 PM, Wednesday, February 12th]

I'm not trying to be an ass, but if you haven't really read her work but state that she's writing about how things are vs how they should be isn't that doing the exact thing you said should avoided - jumping to conclusions

Personally, I don’t think she is helpful for couples who are new to dealing with the infidelity. Her idealism would be a slap in the face to a bs who is still reeling from having their world broken.

I don’t know how to quote people on here so any pointers would be appreciated. Hikingitout, your take is pretty good on her work. I've actually read a decent deal of her work and watched more of her videos than I care to ever see again. I did so in search for understanding my ex unfaithful wife. I personally believe there is a place for cheaters to receive compassion and understanding.
However, regarding her work I am pretty solid in what I believe. She doesn’t blame to BS but is a 100% supporter of the unmet needs theory. She never addresses integrity, and I think the point above from Dr. Soolers resonates with me the most - she most definitely does not recognize infidelity as abuse. To me her work is very contradictory IMO. On one hand she says cheaters are human and to error is human on the other hand she says the betrayed spouse help create the conditions for infidelity. Create them by not being perfect? Lets be honest most cheaters are avoidant and their BS has zero idea about the resentments and problems the US has in their head – real or self-created.
I can see how her work contributes to helping a US with shame. At the same time she doesn’t really provide tools for the US to work on shame – at least not that I have seen. I think her work is a listening ear to unfaithful speaks to a supportive or listening ear to the unfaithful. At the same time its 100% tone deaf to the painful experience of infidelity for those who chose to stay faithful. In someways she blames American culture for our harsh views on infidelity – like its more carefree and not such a big deal in Europe. Again – it’s bullshit. In my affair recovery program 2 of the 5 couples were from Europe. On my betrayed mens forum – I interact with European men all the time. Time and time again I see the face of pain from the BS and in no way is it any different for anyone from any region.
I think a massive variant for BS regarding her work is integrity – I don’t believe that she feels that cheating has anything to do with that or with general human decency.
I am fairly biased at this point. I tried to reconcile, tried to be understanding and compassionate, and worked my butt of to forgive. I have forgiven my EX and that I hope she has a beautiful life but not to the extent that I would ever believe she is a trustworthy person of sharing a life with. The lies never stopped, the deception never stopped, but I was certainly led to believe it all did. Ive talked to so many BS spouses in my shoes, I don’t think you can seriously promote infidelity recovery work without addressing things like full blown narcissism, dark triad traits, behavioral issues or leanings towards those things. Not that all cheaters are narcs or such. Peril’s whole body of work is about infidelity in good marriages which is more baffling how she never touches these subjects. IMO its not all that difficult to unwrap or understand how a battered spouse cheats or how someone in an abusive relationship cheats.

I know I am in the minority, but I found her book to be a life saver and never once thought she was blaming the betrayed or letting the cheaters off the hook. For me, it helped explain the crazy, brokenness behind the cheater’s mind. I always needed the "why?" answered and knew in at least my story there was more to the answer than "because he wanted to". The real question is "why did he want to?" and she helped explore possibilities along with counseling of course.

I am editing to add that I do subscribe (partially) to the unmet needs idea, with the disclaimer that most waywards are so mentally f’ed in the head that their needs are irrational and excessive and fixing that is the work they need to do. For my husband the amount of validation and attention he "needed" was beyond normal and he lacked the ability to generate any on his own.

[This message edited by OnTheOtherSideOfHell at 10:10 PM, Wednesday, February 12th]

I can agree with your points above.

Like I said I was probably looking more to come to some sort of acceptance or self compassion at the time of my reading. But I had already taken accountability.

I do feel I had unmet needs in the relationship, but because I had unmet needs from myself. My belief is that I am responsible for my own needs and wants and happiness. It’s not my husbands job to give that to me. So I read under that lens and probably missed the points you outlined in blaming the bs.

As for integrity, that one is complex to me. To have full integrity I understand that you need to be forthright in all your dealings. However, when you look at integrity as parts of a whole, many parts of my life I was still conducting myself with integrity. I have lived decades of my life with my integrity fully intact.

For me, shoring up my character took more of an evaluation of of identifying more strongly with my values. I feel for much of my life I did the right things and acted the right ways because I knew that was expected of me. Or I had a picture of what a good person is. The issue with shame is it’s a core emotion. Guilt is "I fell bad for doing this". Shame is "I am bad". And regardless of living right for most of my life that shame I carried around eventually won out.

I confessed primarily to reclaim my integrity. But over time I really had to come to terms with my value system. And today I would tell you it was my value system that was more problematic than my overall relationship with integrity. Believing you can have integrity and valuing it is part of that.

I think where it interplays with what she was saying for me is at the time of my affair I would have probably killed myself if I didn’t have kids. My need to find a way out of pain superseded my need to have integrity. Where as if I valued my integrity or valued fidelity more than my pain I would have likely seen my way out in a different form.

I am not at all saying she is a good example of affair recovery. I would agree she is not. But she is good at creating the softer edges that are needed in later stages of the process. That being said, you will never catch me recommending her books to anyone. I feel read them at a good time for me in my own recovery, where I wasn’t in the business of buying into all that she was saying. (I read her probably 18 months ago so I was removed enough to get some of what I was looking for)

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:39 AM, Thursday, February 13th]

I always appreciate your contributions hiking out and I deeply respect you. I am encouraged to see the work you have put in. It provides brightness and hope. It is not my intention to shame anyone. And I wish all betrayed’s and waywards alike much peace and healing.

I plan to watch more of EP’s podcasts to verify that she is saying what I heard and read her to say. I want to be fair-minded.

Shehawk- I never feel like anyone is shaming me here. And certainly can read a vent and understand everyone’s experience is different. Thank you for being considerate to say that but vent away. This shit sucks. I don’t really identify with the shame as much as I once did. I mean I will forever hate what I did but I like who I have become. I no longer feel that I am inherently bad.

No question hikingout is a treasure of wealth, knowledge, and compassion for all of us who've suffered this traumatic experience.

An Easter Perel youtube video was one of the first things my WW shared with me after D-Day. I was so traumatized and in shock that her words kinda made sense to me at that time.

After the shock wore off a little, and I listened to her book, The State Of Affairs, I was mortified at how lightly she treats the straying spouses, and how little accountability she espouses.

The book seemed to excuse adultery because "oh the people in this culture, in the 19th century, used to think it wasn't a big deal" or "the people xyz country today don't consider it a big deal", or "it was normal in this socioeconomic class or that one".

For me, in my situation, none of these facts mattered. What mattered is my wife and I DID promise fidelity, and she broke that promise.

When it comes to EP I have many times wondered, and still do, if there isn't a slight cultural thing to how her message is received? Yes, I am European, but no, I do not in ANY way shape or form condone or minimise or normalise affairs. But I am one of those that feels that EP almost saved my life. I've read her book cover to cover twice and watched her videos on repeat. I've sent them to my WH and we have discussed them at length. In fact, the night of DD, I slept not one minute and I was in a complete panic mode, I watched her videos through the night to survive. I have never, still don't read into her message any blame on us betrayed or minimisation of the impact.
I've also read all of the other books often recommended on SI. I probably read 15 different books on infidelity over these past couple of years. And I don't find her work in any way actually differs much in their message, it's just HOW she says it that differs, to me. Maybe this is the culture thing coming in? I respect that anyone is allowed to hate her and her body of work (if you have actually read it first that is), but I am a bit surprised as to the amount of hate she gets on this site simply because I find her work has much of the same message that all the other books do, that are recommended and loved here. For example she, just like all the other books states clearly, that for a long time after an A if one tries to R, the cheater must drive the bus of the healing, understand their why's and be ready to discuss the A at any time.

On the question of unmet needs or shared responsibility for creating a M where an A can happen. Most of the other books also discuss this in some way or form, but it usually comes in the chapter on 'how to affair proof your M' or something of the likes. The sentiment is pretty much the same I find. These chapters are in all the books more or less. How to improve your marriage going forward so it won't happen again. She never states that it's a valid reason to have an A (unmet needs) she just explains that this is what most cheaters claim as their reason. Like someone else said, she merely explains what IS, not what in a perfect world SHOULD be. That doesn't mean the A is the betrayed's fault. Or that 'unmet needs' makes an A ok. She just says that it is what it is, it's not perfect, it's not what we hoped or wanted, but since it IS, we need to look at it for what it is.

To me, she offered hope. She let me know that not only monsters cheat. Sometimes generally good family oriented people lose their way and cheat anyway. Not every cheater is a narc or irredeemable, or even unhappily married (unmet needs and unhappily married aren't the same thing necessarily). Statistics point to infidelity being EXTREMELY common. Most infidelity is never outed is what I've found statistics show. So not every person that has an A can be a narc, evil, etc. The reformed WWs on this site are examples of that as we all know. And she let me know that.
It's not so much that she condones infidelity but she does normalise it. And I needed that. Lets' face it, it IS normal. Horrendous, but normal. Something that has happened for millennia across all genders and cultures and almost half the population at some point ventures into has to be named 'normal'. We sure wish it wasn't normalt, we condemn it, but the fact remains, it happens. A lot. And that's all EP says in my opinion. It happens. A lot. Why does it and what can we do about it once it's happened? To me she answered the questions: Why me? (Why NOT me, since almost half of long term relationships has this at some point), How could he? (she gives pretty much the same explanations the other books give - basically we are human and we err), and How do we start moving on?

I also find that when she talks about how the betrayed can 'grow and learn something form the ordeal' she means what we all think of as starting to do things for ourselves, that the betrayed has to heal themself and the soft 180.

Just my perspective on her work and how I read it.

Fit,

I don’t know how to quote people on here so any pointers would be appreciated.

Highlight and copy what you want to quote then paste it into the post field. Highlight again then hit the quote button above the post box.