SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

VERY IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: * I am merely using an anecdote from a political situation to illustrate a point about infidelity. Please do not make any political comment on this post or criticize any candidate or position, as it's not my intent to do so or even share my political leanings this close to a seemingly all consuming US presidential election... it just happens to be the latest instance of this type of thing that I've noticed*

The jokes are so demeaning, and they hurt if I'm being honest. And I hate admitting that and only really feel comfortable admitting that in anonymity amongst people that have walked in shoes very similar to my own. ** NO POLITICS **. Men calling other men "cucks" and the like as the worst form of denigration and character assassination. I'm certainly not in that group, as I didn't allow or permit my wife to cheat. I was deceived and manipulated and abused. But I hate myself in a lot of ways that I didn't immediately do the thing I always thought I would do and stand up for myself and divorce her for her actions and disrespect and betrayal. So I understand that a lot of my underlying pain at these jokes is that I'm confused and disappointed in a sense with myself. I feel like less of a man due to what's happened. And the jokes reinforce it.

It shouldn't matter what the rest of the world thinks, right? But I can't help it. I'm so wired to desire respect and to earn respect. I joined the Marines at 17 years old when I could've easily chosen an easier path, simply for the reason that I wanted to challenge myself to the hardest thing I could think of. I wanted to earn that respect. I wanted to respect myself and earn the respect of those around me. I'm extremely traditional and rigid in my view of masculinity, and always have been. And I don't think that's toxic. Unrealistically romantic notion of masculinity, perhaps. But I've strived towards virtues I think represent who I want to be, and I've tried to conform to those self-imposed ideals even when it was the path of highest resistance because it's who I want to be on my death bed. For me that's manifested in things like trying to be steady and not impulsive. I realized early in life I had a gambling problem, and my rigid view of masculinity told me I needed to step away from that forever and never look back because a "real man" is in control of his impulses and won't jeopardize his family's finances for his childish dopamine hit since I couldn't control it. It manifested in going to work sick, tired, whatever and giving my all to be reliable for my wife and children. It manifested in a lot of saying "no" to myself and things I wanted because a "real man" puts his wife and kids' needs and wants above his own. So it's rigid, and perhaps unhealthy in some ways, but has served me well. And it's important to me and my self-perception.

And now here we are, after an adult lifetime of chasing the ability to look myself in the mirror and respect the man I see and desiring the respect of other men, and this line of insult that denotes the lowest of the low of masculinity in a lot of peoples' eyes is aptly applied to myself. She made me that guy, the butt of that joke. Her and her lover. And it sucks. It hurts. Fuck both of them for that. And now I have to look at this and analyze and evaluate, "what is deficient in me that she was vulnerable to these other guys?" And then you get hyper self-critical and spiral. I had gotten fat and soft and boring when she started the affair (the fat and soft part has been resoundingly fixed over the past 3 years). I don't earn my living in the same way AP does. He's a fancy white collar guy, telling people what to do and being important in his office/desk. I'm a dirty blue collar guy who tells no one what to do and just fixes things. Was she attracted to his "power" that I don't have? Dude was younger than me, it could be debated he was more or less attractive (we're too different to compare, it'd depend on any individual woman's attraction preferences), he's hung like a porn-star down there and I'm just a normal guy who never felt any kind of way about myself in that way until my wife was with a guy like him, and now I battle with sexual inferiority/inadequacy issues that haunt me. I'm trying to fix all the "flaws" in myself that I found in the wake of her affair (even before I found out, just the distance she was giving me during the affair), because it stole something from me internally that I'm trying to get back. A confidence? A self-respect? I don't know. But it's a spiral because I fix one thing and it's just something else that springs up. It's like chasing money, it's never enough to satisfy, and I know the answer is to at some point stop and rest and find inner self-respect again. But that's a lot easier said than done.

I think I'm writing because it's somewhat cathartic. But my point is that I don't think society in general has any idea what kind of damage is done to people by joking about infidelity and emasculating men whose wives have lovers as a joke. I don't know that they'd care if they did until/unless it happened to them. There's a deep part of me that hates myself for how this turned out, hates her, hates him, just full of bitterness and hatred still years later. I'm mad I stayed. I'm mad he's still walking and I turned out not to be the type of guy who will kill/maim you if you dishonored me to such a degree that you'd sleep with my wife, even though I know that there's honor in that too because I consciously made that choice not to act on those impulses so I could still provide and be here for my children who need a father.

I'm not asking any question or for anything in response. I'm just hurt/irritated and venting. Thank you for giving me a space to do that.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:14 PM, Sunday, October 20th]

What your wife did to you does not make you any less masculine nor does it make you any less worthy of respect. Anyone who hasn't been through infidelity has no clue about the damage that it does to a person's psyche.

It's okay for you to feel hurt and angry still, I'm coming up on 5 years out and there are days where I'm still very hurt and angry as well even though I feel like I am mostly healed from it. Feel those feelings but let them pass through you and don't linger there. As hard as it is to remember this on bad days, please remember that her cheating had absolutely nothing to do with you. You could have been the worst (or best) husband in the world and she still would have made the choices she made because that was something that was broken in her. As far as the guy that she picked she didn't pick him for power or for his physicality or for money or for his desk job, she picked him because he was just as broken as she was and misery like that always loves company so they can feel better about how shitty they are.

Like you, I always thought that if I was cheated on I would immediately kick them out and divorce them and be done with them. Also like you that is not what happened in my situation. I spent 9 months more with my xwh trying to "work it out" and I still have days where I'm very confused by that myself. As I've progressed in my healing journey I realize that infidelity is so damaging and turns everything so upside down that my lack of action wasn't due to lacking respect of myself it was just because I had never in my life been in a situation like that where I truly was just paralyzed by emotional overload. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

I do know now that cheating is an absolute deal breaker for me, and should I ever be unlucky enough to go through it again I absolutely know how I would handle it. That's the one silver lining I take from my experience is that I definitely learned from it. It also taught me a lot about watching people's actions and not listening to their words, which has unfortunately come in handy many times in the last 5 years but ultimately allowed me to get out of some sticky situations that I would've stayed in before. Not that that was how I wanted to learn these things, but I do know that surviving this made me a stronger smarter better version of myself than I was before. I get to learn from this shitshow and be a better person and my xwh still has to be his same broken douchecanoe self that will never ever change and he'll spend his whole life chasing happy that he will never ever find. So yeah, I think I won that one.

For what it's worth. I do respect you very much for your service and I respect you for surviving what you have. I remember you in your early days here and even though you might not be able to see it sometimes I can see how much progress you've made. You should be really proud of yourself for that. Hang in there my friend things will get better.

I think you and I have some very similar views on masculinity, and some very similar life arcs. I spent a great deal of my life looking for what it meant to be masculine (including fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq), in the devastating wake of feeling very much as you are now. It’s also one of my great regrets to this day how I handled the aftermath of her affair(s). I would have rugswept them for years because I loved her and felt I had an obligation to help her. That is until I would likely have had a mental breakdown from the dissonance between my ideals/honor/integrity and the reality of my actions. I wish I had acted then, the way I know I deserve to act now. But I can’t. Those days are long gone, never to return. All that’s left is to start living that way now. I read somewhere that forgiveness is "letting go of the hope of having a better past." Seems apt.

I read through some of your profile but probably missed a lot. Brother… your wife is a serial cheater. You are clearly still in agony. What’s keeping you from being the man you want to be? I can tell you right now that I have a much healthier view of masculinity than I used to, and there is no definition of it that means you have to suffer at the hands of an abuser - whether she has her own demons or not. Quite the opposite. Just remember that you’re no savior, and she doesn’t need you to save her. It’s a problem I had as a younger man, this instinctual drive to always put others ahead of me, always make other people more important, always be ready to sacrifice myself physically and emotionally for others - even those who were less than me (though my profound insecurities would never let me admit that). Don’t be a savior, for 2 simple reasons: #1 is that it’s pathological, it’s unnecessary, it is a red flag in a man. #2 is simple - you just can’t. You don’t have it in you, nobody does. Think twice before you set yourself on fire to keep her warm. I’d wager that she wouldn’t reciprocate the act.

It’s your life. I hope you are able to give yourself some grace in all this. Just remember, it is never too late to start living the way you know you deserve. Trust me you have no lack of bravery. Your strength is there, just pick the path that is best for you - and not her. Then start taking one step at a time, and keep putting one foot in front of the other until you’re somewhere you want tot be. Best time to plant that tree was years back, next best time is now.

Best of luck to you. I’m sorry you’re in so much pain.

[This message edited by justsendit at 5:01 AM, Sunday, October 20th]

1345Marine -

Semper Fi.

As an old Jarhead myself, I certainly understand a lot of what you’re saying and why.

I hope venting here helped some. I know me venting here over the years has helped me.

I do agree society has no f’n idea the damage infidelity causes. None.

The jokes did bother me at first, but they’re made in ignorance and bother me less and less these days.

From what you wrote, I have a slightly different perspective on respect.

I see a man who held up his end.

I see a man who kept his vows, above and beyond.

I see a father, who put his kids ahead of everything.

Taking out the AP — man, do I understand that thought. As you noted though, you took the higher road, the honorable path to provide for those kids.

I only have my respect to offer from afar. You have endured, adapted and continue to overcome pain none of us asked for.

1345Marine

Some people are in prison for actions contrary to civilized society.

Some people are in prison for actions they perpetrate on themself.

The answer is simple. Let her go. You have been under stress for over 2 years. Do you know what that does to you physically? Please read the book THE BODY KEEPS THE SCORE and then put on your armor and tell her to leave. She is now having her children keeping her secrets and that is it grossly unfair and wrong. Just let her go. Every single time she mentioned suicide call the cops and they will put her in that same place and eventually she will figure out that you are not falling for it. Although I think she’s somewhat of an addict I also think she’s extremely narcissistic and so is that boyfriend. The two of them would’ve been much better off going on some roller coasters on the weekends and behaving themselves otherwise. This is who she is.

4 years now?

Repeating ad-infinitum: "You are responsible for your own happiness"

open image in new tab -

It's time to reset your understanding of masculinity as it relates to yourself, IMO.

You've got almost all of it right already. Almost all of 'masculinity' can be distilled to 'doing the right thing at the right time.' You do that. (Thoughts about not doing the right thing ... you can be forgiven for those.) Just look at what you did with gambling! Really see what you did and are doing with that. Look at joining the USMC at 17!

And now here we are, after an adult lifetime of chasing the ability to look myself in the mirror and respect the man I see and desiring the respect of other men, and this line of insult that denotes the lowest of the low of masculinity in a lot of peoples' eyes is aptly applied to myself. She made me that guy, the butt of that joke. Her and her lover. And it sucks. It hurts.

We BHs are butts of jokes told by people who have not experienced being betrayed or who are in denial. I don't really know how I deal with that ... I guess I discount the jokes because they're told by people who are deeply ignorant and who do what their nasty thoughts tell them to do at least some of the time - not people whose jokes can be taken seriously.

I remember I was afraid to post my story here. Maybe some SIers or lurkers thought I was so unmanly that my W had to cheat with a woman, but they never posted that. SIers seem to think betrayal is betrayal.

Here's a couple of questions for you, 1345:

What do you have to do to accept that you're man enough? Just look at what you did with gambling! Really see what you did and are doing with that. Look at joining the USMC at 17! You've built a record of making respectable choices again and again.

What has to happen for you to respect yourself? That's what missing, IMO. That's what you need to reset, IMO. You've earned respect from others. Now is a time to listen to your friends, the people who respect you, and use their respect as the seed of your own self-respect.

You are a human being, not a wolf. Leading the pack is not the sign of a winner for human beings, even if it may be for a wolf (and that's open to question). To be a winner, a human being needs to control themself, to make the best choices they can, even though they know they don't control others in ways that guarantee their choices will work out well. The USMC has a history of success, but not 100% success.

IMO, the pain that comes from being a butt of jokes is IMO a subset of the pain that comes from being betrayed. It's an insult added to the terrible injury; it probably wouldn't hurt if your W hadn't betrayed you (or if you had no empathy for people in pain). Instead of dwelling on the jokes and disrespect, IMO you'd be better off by feeling your grief and anger - and by reminding yourself that the shame belongs to your WS and her ap. (We call them 'other man', but WSes ALWAYS affair down, so how manly can they be?)

ETA: And the more you respect yourself, the less these jokes will hurt.

*****

Our son was born in 1972 while W & I were studying overseas. The night after he was born, I went to a party. I brought a bottle of Scotch and drank most of that. When I finished the Scotch, I switched to the local beer, which left an awful after-taste. Around 4 AM, some marines on R&R arrived with several cases of Budweiser. The marines and I had different political opinions, but I expressed so much gratitude for the Bud that we got along. Well, gratitude and the fact that we agreed on the war they were fighting. ETA: I still remember the Budweiser with gratitude, and I still remember the discussion of politics and the marines fondly. Alas, we were a little too soused to exchange addresses so we could stay in touch.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:26 PM, Monday, October 21st]

Be not overly righteous, and do not make yourself too wise. Why should you destroy yourself? Be not overly wicked, neither be a fool. Why should you die before your time?
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Dear friend, I think we have similar temperaments in some important ways. The desire to push to extremes, to be so far away from the bad and so clearly in the good that none could ever doubt it. Avoiding all appearance of evil.

I think we got it wrong.

I think we thought that we could live life safely by our own efforts and vigilance.

I think we tried to be over righteous.

And I think, as we’ve learned so much and had so much pain, it’s time to re-evaluate this approach to life. And I don’t want to go off the rails and become wicked or foolish. But we’re mortal, destined to live today and die tomorrow. We can’t control as much as wanted to believe we could as young men. I think it’s time to live more in keeping with our limited ness.

And if I misread you, I apologize and then this was just for me.

Please revisit your last post in the Divorce forum. You've convinced yourself that you have no option to but to remain in your situation... but the reality is that you do have a choice. It just means a few short-term sacrifices for long-term well-being, both for yourself and your kids.

The best way to stop feeling insecure and emasculated is to stop tying yourself down to a person who does little else but make you feel insecure and emasculated.

I understand completely.

This is one of the many " gifts " of infidelity ".

First the person that supposed to be the most loyal to you ( ws), stab you in the back in the worst way possible by having an A behind your back.

Then , when hurting and wounded from the trauma, others blame you ( bs) for A.

Infidelity, the " gift that keeps on giving "

The best way to stop feeling insecure and emasculated is to stop tying yourself down to a person who does little else but make you feel insecure and emasculated.

This^^^

I thought I had no choice but stay in my situation. I was so fearful of D it almost paralyzed me. But since leaving and removing my biggest trigger (the xWs) life has become so much healthier for me, more peaceful, more happiness. No more of those dark thoughts or reminders of the A. I don't even think about it anymore. The only thing that remains is my feelings of having wasted so much time on such an awful human being. It's the feelings of how he treated me during the M that are hard to get rid of now. The A and it's lingering effects have all but disappeared.

1345Marine, I read your post and this the same day…

A knee-jerk reaction to the idea of giving up your life story might be "but it makes me who I am." Well, yes, that’s the point. You might fret that you wouldn’t want to forget your past because it’s precious to you, or perhaps was so traumatic that you never want to forgive and forget. This only shows how wed you are to this story. The only reason you don’t want to drop it is that you experience being the one crafted by it, and so find much of yourself within it.

Let’s be clear. Your life story isn’t the same thing as your history—history is what actually took place in your life. But the story you tell yourself and others about your past isn’t the same as an objective memory of what happened throughout your life. Your story is what you "live" that happened. What happened is what happened, and it is probably largely forgotten or was never completely known.

-From Pursuing Consciousness

This and things like it have changed my perspective. Detaching from the "I am now officially this" stories we tell ourselves. Taking my mind less seriously, in general. When I feel the urge to go down the rathole I’ve to say to myself, hey dumbass, you’re going down the rathole. WTF? I’ll then think about why this thing is bothering me, rather than thinking about the thing itself. And then I’ll think about what a waste of time I was about to engage in and move onto something productive.

A WS's Affairs say nothing about any BS.

The best way to stop feeling insecure and emasculated is to stop tying yourself down to a person who does little else but make you feel insecure and emasculated.

IMO, life IS insecure, and it's a mistake to forget or ignore that. The fact that catastrophes can happen any place and any time, but they don't, is one big source of gratitude.

IMO, the best way to stop feeling emasculated is to stop telling oneself you're emasculated. Instead, tell yourself things like:

1) the plumbing still works with the right person,

2) the A is about the WS and not the BS,

3) one is loving, lovable, and capable,

4) the cheater showed the cheater - not the BS - is the one who failed, , etc., etc., etc.

You can leave your WS without changing your self-talk. If you do that, you'll still feel the way your self-talk tells you to feel, even in the absence of the WS.

A BS makes a mistake in blaming the WS for the sense of humiliation, inadequacy, emasculation, etc. It's not the cheater who does that. It's the self-talk. If you change your self-talk, you change your thoughts and feelings and life.

I know that's much easier said than done, but it's something that virtually all of us can do and benefit from.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:17 PM, Wednesday, October 23rd]

A BS makes a mistake in blaming the WS for the sense of humiliation, inadequacy, emasculation, etc. It's not the cheater who does that. It's the self-talk. If you change your self-talk, you change your thoughts and feelings.

I think this is true, but only after a period of time, and I don’t know exactly how long. The phrase "no one can make you feel a certain way" is a half truth, at best, IMO.

Imagine a Halloween prank, where someone dresses up in a scary costume, hides, lures someone in, and jumps out. Almost everyone would immediately feel fear. Imagine someone pulling your pants down while giving a speech in front of school mates. Almost everyone would feel embarrassed. We can, in fact, make other people feel things I believe. But that should be temporary. The person who is defrocked in public doesn’t have to remain embarrassed, they did nothing wrong. The pranked person doesn’t have to stay in fear, they are actually safe. We need to get our self talk to catch up with reality after the external event. Marine, your feelings make sense for what you’ve experienced, but it’s time to realize you are safe.

It's the self-talk. If you change your self-talk, you change your thoughts and feelings and life.

I’ve been working to move past the idea of self-talk, which is ultimately (if you think on it) self manipulation. The whole idea that our purpose in life is to write some kind of narrative, to tell some kind of story. Through, practice, I’ve learned to take my mind far less seriously. 🙂

I remind myself that I am not my mind, to not get lost in it, to actually set aside beliefs and try not-knowing things. It has proved to be a powerful habit.

Well, 1345Marine, in many ways you and I are different people, but so much of what you said chimed with me. I don't hear the type of jokes you mention too often, but I certainly recognise the way my WW made me feel: like a piece of shit. Men in my position are, in many people's eyes, the most contemptible men in society.

Anyway, I will keep fighting for my self-respect, and I know you will too. I wish we could share a beer (or a coffee) together.

And you write incredibly well: your post was a very compelling read. Best wishes, sir!