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I know all A’s cause huge amounts of distress, sadness and destruction but I’ve been wondering lately is there a degree of betrayal that is easier/harder to forgive and move forward or is all betrayal equal no matter what? For example:

- is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?
- is a 6week affair easier to forgive than a 6month affair?
- is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?
- is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

Or is how they try to amend their wrongs that’s more important?

I wonder this sometimes as my WH’s affair in comparison to some was ‘not that bad’ BUT holy shit this forgiveness thing is a tough gig. I read some people’s stories and am in awe of some of the BS’s strength, resilience and compassion.

My H had three affairs. (I found out about all of them at one time.)

The first one was a ONS.

The second one was strictly PA with a stranger he met online. Maybe six events over the course of a year.

The last was a full-blown EA/PA where he almost left me for her.

I'm much less bothered by the ONS than I am by the second PA, and less bothered by it than the EA/PA. Had I "only" a ONS to contend with, my perception might be very different. An analogy came to mind: I'd still be quite incapacitated by a broken femur, but add on a punctured lung and a traumatic brain injury and the broken leg would be the least of my worries.

Also, I had an EA that my H knew about almost the entire time, participated in, and encouraged progression to PA in exchange for being allowed a PA of his own. (He had already had two PAs, unbeknownst to me.) Although I am technically a MH, I consider myself primarily a BS because I didn't lie or hide my EA.

is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

Hmm. Yes, I think so. My H is the child of an abusive alcoholic and it definitely factored into my empathy for him and understanding of his messed-up thinking. But there are other people in the same shoes who didn't cheat...

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 12:13 AM, Thursday, May 23rd]

is there a degree of betrayal that is easier/harder to forgive and move forward or is all betrayal equal no matter what?

I'm sure this varies from person to person. For some any betrayal is a dealbreaker. For others they are able to forgive. Then there are the differences of the betrayals.

IMO the worst of the A's are those that are LTA's or multiple A's and the WS is not remorseful.

Also forgiveness is not necessary after an A. Sometimes it is just too much to forgive and that is ok. People can still R and not forgive the act. They may forgive to let go. Every person is different.

- is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?

- is a 6week affair easier to forgive than a 6month affair?

- is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?

- is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

Just answering these from my experience

I think either way whether the M was in a bad spot or good spot it is hard to forgive the betrayal. In a bad M both are in it yet one partner did not cheat.

A 6 week A and 6 month A hurt the same. I do think LTAs are a different beast. One has to be seriously disconnected to carry on a whole relationship while married. That takes a lot of lack of empathy/sociopathy.

EA vs PA both are just as painful. I know for many men the physical aspect is hard to get over and for women the emotional is hard to get over. My xWS A's were physical and emotional and they were LTA's.

It depends on how remorseful the WS is and if the A isn't a dealbreaker for the BS. In my xWS's case he had an abusive upbringing, which I am positive helped shape his personality disorder. I am still unable to forgive him.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 10:00 PM, Wednesday, May 22nd]

The one thing that would have made his A easier to forgive is a confession and complete honesty. Having to find out about it myself and then dealing with him minimizing things and withholding details just about broke me.

Coming from a tough upbringing does not matter to me. I came from a very tough upbringing and I have never cheated. As an adult you are responsible for dealing with your issues and the choices you make.

My experience is with my H's three month A so I don't know how I would have felt about an emotional A or a one night stand. I do think a long term A would have been very difficult to deal with.

I don't think you will find the answers to your questions, because the combinations of people and their sensitivities, their values, their ability to forgive, their ability to want to reconcile depends on how people are, what their history is, what their inner wounds are and how they react is always a personal matter.

It is forgivable what you want to forgive. It is possible to reconcile if BOTH want it really, not just in words, but in facts, in choices, in commitment.

I think "comparing" affairs is an exercise in futility. There are no winners - we are all losers. The worst affair you can ever experience is the one that happened to you. It's easy to look at the experiences of others and think "I could NEVER forgive THAT though...." and I will be honest that I catch myself doing it all the time, but the truth is, if there is one thing that this experience has taught me, it is that I had no idea what I'd do until I was actually put in the position to do it.

I also don't think the degree of affair badness is NECESSARILY correlated with the ability of the BS to "get over it". It's not like a math equation where as long as you don't go over a certain level of badness things are going to be okay. I see people making this mental connection all the time and it makes my brain hurt a little bit. Any affair is bad and should, in theory, by unforgivable... and yet here we are. I have seen people R in circumstances that I would have assumed were unrecoverable from. I have seen people divorce due to infidelities that I would have considered "more minor". None of it happens in a vacuum. There are so many other factors at play.

- is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?

I was someone who was cheated on at the beginning of my marriage but we had been 10 years at the time. Things were generally good. We were trying to have a baby. There were some external stressors that were wearing us down a little but as between the two of us, we were fine. It meant that I really doubted myself and my perception of the relationship and whether he could be safe - if you're willing to cheat when things were good, can you ever be a safe partner? The flip of that was that made it easier for me to really see/understand/believe that it wasn't about the marriage or about me, but about him. I also think that the fact that our relationship was mostly strong made it easier to heal from. There were a lot fewer issues to fix and distractions to get weighed down by and patterns to rectify. Our "work" was more focused, as we hadn't fallen into the dysfunctional muscle memory that I know so many marriages can fall into over time.

- is a 6week affair easier to forgive than a 6month affair?

Again, I don't 'think it's about the length of the A or the badness of the cheating that determines whether R will be successful or not. I think what is more important is the motivation and effort of the parties in it. That said, I think a shorter A would.... in theory. be easier to handle than a longer one because less marital history is wrapped up in the A. The flip is that in a longer A, I think there is more time for the WS and the AP to see the "real" other person rather than the idealized fantasy they had built up in their minds which might make the fog easier to break. Doesn't mean they will necessarily, but they might be able to have a more nuanced view of the person than someone who had only ever seen the AP on their very best behaviour. I know my husband talks about a time period that occurred in the course of his A where it had hit him how wrong what he was doing was, and what he risked losing. Despite having justified things in his own brain and done the separate boxes in his mind thing, he had a day where the fog lifted, and he was overcome with guilt and he really asked himself what the fuck he was doing and why and what his exit plan would be. He didn't execute on any of this exit plans, but I think having had these thoughts on his own beforehand, made it easier for him to know INSTANTANTLY on D-day that the lies he had told himself were not real.

- is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?

Again, I think it's going to depend on the parties. For some people, they would say absolutely and that would be true for them. My husband's A was mainly a PA - not a TON of emotional connection (no "I love yous" or plans to run away together). And as hard as it was to deal with the sex stuff (and I'm not dowplaying it one little bit), I know that my greatest fear in R was that I would find out that he secretly loved her and was just biding his time to be with her.

is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

Again, I think people get really confused about whys when they treat them like mitigating circumstances. They aren't that. They don't excuse any of the behaviour of the person in the A, I think they just help us - as the BS - understand the dysfunctional thought processes that the WS has and how those dysfunctional thought processes came to exist. I don't' think that the bar for fidelity or being a good partner should be any lower for someone who had a crappy childhood than someone who had a good one. I also think that someone who had a reasonably "good" childhood can still develop dysfunctional coping skills through no real fault of their own. Things like avoidance and distraction and the drive for external validation can absolutely be adaptive in certain circumstances. I know I worked incredibly hard in school in order to get the praise from others and ego boost I received from knowing I'd done a good job - the fact that I found that motivating was incredibly adaptive in my life (and my husband's) in terms of achieving success in our careers. That same trait in my husband became maladaptive when he started tying his worth as a person to his achievements and he into a hole of shame when something didn't go the way he had hoped at work.

Again, if anything, the healthier the WS is as a person, the easier I think it is - in theory - to R, because there is less shit to work through.

BUT holy shit this forgiveness thing is a tough gig.

It's early Webbit. Don't try too hard to force it. I will tell you I went into R without planning on ever being able to forgive it. It felt like an unforgivable thing and I could'nt comprehend ever thinking it was okay so I never tried. I focused instead on trying to understand it and working on my own resentments while he worked on his shit. Over time, I think forgiveness just sort of happened. I'll tell you, it certianly wasn't in a few months post Dday.

I know all A’s cause huge amounts of distress, sadness and destruction but I’ve been wondering lately is there a degree of betrayal that is easier/harder to forgive and move forward or is all betrayal equal no matter what? For example:

- is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?
- is a 6week affair easier to forgive than a 6month affair?
- is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?
- is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

Or is how they try to amend their wrongs that’s more important?

I think there is definitely a difference of degrees, and I could generally point you in the direction of least bad to most bad. Yes the particularities of the relationship and the individuals in it matter. Additionally, the WS is largely in charge of their behavior AFTER the A which is a much larger impact on how hard it is to forgive. You will not likely forgive a remorseless cheater that claims forever they have done nothing wrong even if the perceived betrayal is small.

1) I think cheating in a broken marriage is *harder* to forgive than one that is otherwise happy. I think this is generally because a WS in a poor marriage is much more prone to blameshifting and trying to put the BS in a position to play the pick me dance.

2) The longer the worse.

3) I think a ONS PA only is easier, EA is harder, repeated PA (but claim of no EA) is harder, EA+PA is the worst. This one probably depends the most on the dynamic of the couple.

4) That my wife was dealing with her mother's suicide definitely factored in to my decision. These types of hard circumstances are generally going to create a little empathy for the internal motivation, but you can't let them become a scapegoat for bad behavior. I know I'm going a little opposite of (1) here, but I do think external motivation and FOO is worth thinking about more than prior marital condition. If they just did it because they could, it's kinda harder to forgive than because they were improperly coping with a problem.

5) Relationship to AP. I added this one. How close the AP is matters too. The closer they are to BS the worse the double betrayal.

This is something that I’ve wondered myself. I think the answers will vary greatly depending on the individual. At the end of the day, betrayal is betrayal no matter how "big or small" - the sting will be there.

Speaking to some of your examples:

1. For my personal situation, my marriage before and during my WH’s A was about the most toxic, loveless, loneliest place I have ever been. In the weeks leading up to the discovery I was going to confront him about separation/divorce because I couldn’t continue down this path and I didn’t have faith in him to change ti be the husband and father I wanted him to be. Honestly, I think because our marriage hit complete rock bottom (and he hit complete rock bottom) that this is actually what has given me the strength to extend a slight amount of grace to him. I don’t know how I could forgive him if our marriage was picture perfect and he decided to have an A - I think this would be a tough one for me.

2. I think the longer an A goes on, the more messier and complex it can become. The lies and betrayal continue and the hole keeps getting bigger. My WH had a 3 month A and that was 3 months too long. I think LTA’s that span over years or the course of your entire relationship/marriage would just be about the most devastating thing then that of an A that lasts weeks or months.

3. I used to think that in order for an A to be an A it involved being physical. Now being introduced to infidelity and being a woman I can see how having an EA would be just as damaging as a PA. With an EA people catch feelings/lust/love - which can be extremely dangerous. PA is about those feelings of wanting sexual release/being desired.

4. I definitely think upbringings play a part in the person we become. Again, it’s all about our choices. The

I’m similar to you in that in comparison to many other WS’s my WH’s "A" was "minor." However, given that I have a strong personality, and I don’t take no shit from nobody his betrayal has made me feel weak for staying. I feel that by staying I’m betraying myself, my values and my morals because the woman I know wouldn’t have tolerated this kind of abuse … yet here I am, going against what I believed I would do if I was in this situation. It’s a tough pill to swallow.

I think this is going to be such a different answer from individuals. But I've been through a 3 year long term PA/EA where she carried on an entire double life. There have been multiple EA's/ Flirty sexual texts that didn't become physical as far as I know, and she had a one night stand "cheating" on both me and 3 year AP with a guy who at one time I would've considered one of my closest friends. So I've got a lot of comparisons, and for me the hardest to get over by a million miles is primary AP. I suspect if I'd found out about ONS with my former friend first it would've been utterly devastating. But the way it happened, when I found out I was just like, "Meh, one more thing, fuck it." It's started to hurt a bit since then, but still nothing close to primary AP. I think the length and depth of the affair with long term AP has made it much harder to overcome. It's also weird to me in the sense that who the AP is has made it tougher to deal with. Primary 3 year AP is everything I'm not. He's a leaner body type, I've been fat but even now that I'm in great shape I'm a big muscular guy who will never have six pack abs like him (and he'll never have my arms and shoulders, and I'd win that fight all day long, so fuck that guy), he's younger than me and much less serious minded and probably more fun to hang out with since he's not as worn down by life (He's married but no kids and has been living that double income no kids lifestyle with lots of disposable income). He's a different race and a different culture from me. He's a white collar worker who manages and works at a desk, and I'm a blue collar tradesman who works with my hands (we make comparable incomes). I sincerely believe you could line us up and ask a hundred women who they find more attractive and get a 50/50 split just depending on the woman's preferences, and it kind of works that way down the line of characteristics because we're just so incredibly opposite. But she didn't "affair down" from me on a superficial level. She went to the polar opposite. That aspect of it has made it tough to overcome because I'll never ever be what he is if that's what she wanted. I compare myself to him and it's done a huge number on my self confidence. I really struggle with taking my own advice and seeing myself as the prize compared to him. That's fucked me up. With the guy who was my friend at one time, I know him well. He's basically the "wish" version of me. I look at him and think, "What the hell were you thinking?" In that sense it's been easier to get past him because my own sense of self isn't as screwed with. I look at him and KNOW between the two of us, on every single level imaginable, I'm the prize. 99 out of the hundred would pick me without even knowing anything about either of our level of character. So in my experience, there's been a big struggle in getting over who the AP is and it's made so much tougher when you have trouble internalizing and truly accepting that she affaired down and didn't run off for fun with a guy who's better than you and wondering if every time she's sleeping with me she wishes I was him.

The issue with forgiveness is less about what they did and more about how it made you feel about yourself. To the extent that you don't think what they did says anything about you, forgiveness is easier. But if what they did somehow strikes to the core of Who You Are...that is when it gets hard(er).

There are so many factors

It would be exhausting to even write them out

But somehow we know when the threshold has been passed and it's not even worth trying

Serial cheating is gigantic for many

Sexual details for many men

I think abuse of the children of marriage by OM or OW is a near universal marriage ender

They are not equal. As an example the 15th affair is a serial cheater may be more damaging than the other previous 14 affairs.

The ones that I think are the most damaging are the ones where it was the high school sweetheart connection or reconnection AND affairs that result in children being born to or with the affair partner.

What made my H’s last affair horrific was his plan to D me to be with the OW. It’s not a good feeling to learn you are being kicked to the curb and left with no $, a house and mortgage you cannot afford solo and two kids to worry about as he sails off into the sunset with his much younger OW.

As a result my PTSD forces me to hoard $ and have a huge fear of debt and panic over not having access to $. On the outside I look completely different than the stress on the inside.

is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?

This is tricky for me because I knew we weren't in a great place but not terrible. My WH had a typical cake-eating affair, AP was a new, horny divorcee that was attracted to him and offered an NSA affair. There were 4 sexual encounters over 2 weeks.

- is a 6week affair easier to forgive than a 6month affair?

For me, the longer it is the more complicated it gets. I had several deal-breakers and I think an LTA would have been difficult for me to reconcile; however we all know we don't know how we would feel faced with different circumstances.

- is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?

Personally, PA only was "easier." They used each other for cheap, meaningless sex. If he took her on dates, or trips, or had "real" feelings is a different level for me.

-is an affair easier to forgive from a WS when you know they have come from a tough upbringing rather than someone who had everything given to them in life?

My WH was the youngest of 6 and definitely had everything given to him. He absolutely is used to feeling entitled. That was something that became glaringly obvious until after dday. His confidence looked more like narcissism.

Or is how they try to amend their wrongs that’s more important?

This is the biggest deal to me. If he hadn't immediately been sorry and ready to do anything to fix what he had so badly fucked up, I would have walked. He has been a (mostly) perfect Wayward. It's been almost 6 years and have a better relationship than before dday.

All of us walk different paths, we just wish to heal whether that is D or R.

I only know what I know, My WW did not have an LTA, it was not a double betrayal. My WW was involved with strangers for very short terms EA / PA / ONS. It is the worst thing to that has ever happened to me. So I really can't answer for any other scenario's but my situation hurt like hell.

Pain is subjective. If the worst pain someone has ever felt was a cut on the arm as opposed to a nail through the foot then that is the deepest pain they've felt.

The egregious nature of the betrayal committed by the ws is similar. If a bs found their ws in a 3 day long EA vs serial cheating for 15 years, that's about what the bs feels and their internal suffering. Objectively I would say some actions are worse than others, but that's not necessarily a good way to measure how much damage they cause between different people.

I also think that the fact that our relationship was mostly strong made it easier to heal from. There were a lot fewer issues to fix and distractions to get weighed down by and patterns to rectify. Our "work" was more focused, as we hadn't fallen into the dysfunctional muscle memory that I know so many marriages can fall into over time.

Sort of our experience too. His cheating complicated things further and made our timeline longer, but most of our relationship focus was on trust, rebuilding connection. And then me doing work on becoming an authentic version of myself that I need to develop and learn to love. But we didn’t have bad habits of disrespect in our daily interactions and there was still so much love buried amongst the rubble. I feel like I had to go from being a very emotionally immature person to someone who is more self aware and self regulating. But to me the personal work probably ironed out any dynamic issues we may have had that flew under the radar all those years.

You are early on. Forgiveness can become this holy grail of goals and I would say let that goal be gone for now. Forgiveness of the behavior is not a predictor of a proper reconciliation. I think acceptance has to come far before that and it takes a lot of processing details and discussions and getting an understanding going so that you feel both of you are understanding each other. And that in my experience takes a lot of time and growth.

You know what? We are much further out and I would tell you each of our behavior was unforgivable. I don’t try to forgive him or myself even. It’s a destination that has no map, if that ever happens it will land on me organically and without resistance. I don’t forgive what he did, but I accept he has learned and I love him. I accept it as part of our history and I am conscious not to hold it against him. I am the same with myself. It’s because beyond the acceptance you can grow compassion for each other back. I don’t know if that is the fertile ground of forgiveness, but I will tell you if I find out.

You are so early you still likely have met mostly denial, bargaining, anger, depression. Those are stages of grief that you will revisit and bounce between until all those feelings have been processed and through that you will reach acceptance, though it does not dictate the outcome of the marriage. You can accept it happened and still decide for divorce.

I don’t know if one is worse than the other but a wise person here used to say "the worst kind of affair is the one that happened to you". And I think it’s true.

Instead of trying to force yourself to forgive him, you must honor yourself and your feelings. They all suck, but I learned to not resist them. It’s the resistance that creates more suffering. It’s the forcing yourself to try and do too much to fix the relationship that will wear you out. Instead, heal you and then see how it goes nd how you feel. In the process of focusing on that, if he is doing the same then what will happen could be the alchemy of grace. But giving grace before you are ready is a way of asking him to pick you. Hang back, heal and then see if you want to pick him.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:52 PM, Thursday, May 23rd]

I am going to have to agree with what a lot of other people have said and say that everyone has different measures of pain and what they consider to be their dealbreakers.

Hell, I have always said that ANY type of infidelity would be a deal breaker for me and I was very vocal with him about it since day 1 and here I still am.

is an EA easier to forgive than a PA?

MY H had a 6 month cake eating PA and as much as it hurt me and literally destroyed me inside I wonder wouldn't it have been better if deep down he just wanted to leave me? Then I could understand a little bit more why he did it but in reality I wouldn't be able to... It is hard for me to say whether they were emotionally involved or not because he dropped her so fast on dday I would like to think whatever feelings he had for her were fake because that is what he told me and he never intended to leave. I can't say which one would hurt me more, I am going to assume they are about equal.

is a WS easier to forgive if you as the BS honestly know your marriage was on the verge of breaking down before the affair as opposed to a WS cheating during a happy marriage?

I am not sure I can answer this one because I thought our marriage was happy or at least I told myself it was with my rose colored glasses on, when in reality I don't think either one of us were truly happy and we both harbored resentment for a long time. Our marriage was breaking down, I just didn't want to face it.
what you said here.....

Or is how they try to amend their wrongs that’s more important?