SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So I caught a few videos by a couples counselor on YouTube who specializes in infidelity and he made a short one about 3 questions your WS should be able to answer, or at least be working on answering if reconciliation is possible.

1. What broke in you?

What is broken inside of you that made you feel like having an affair was a good idea? Not talking about what was going on in your marriage, or the state of the relationship. Those are just excuses. What is going on inside of you that allowed you to drop your boundaries and go against your own moral code? Some answers could be "I have always avoided difficult conversations, so instead of telling you that I was unhappy in our relationship, I escaped into someone else's," or "I've never dealt with my need for external validation, so when someone else showed me attention I couldn't resist," or "I grew up in a house where lying was how we survived so I never really learned how to be honest."

2. What are you doing to fix it?

How can I know this won't happen again? What steps are you taking to fix whatever is broken inside of you to ensure you're addressing your issues? Are you examining your boundaries? Are you in counseling? Are you actively fixing what you broke and making sure it will never happen again? Some answers could be "I'm in IC working on my conflict avoidance," or "I'm reading about attachment patterns," or "I'm learning how to communicate discomfort instead of escaping it," or "I'm being completely transparent with you. You have access to everything."

3. What do I need that you're not giving me?

A truly remorseful spouse is watching you and studying you. They're paying attention to your triggers and figuring out what upsets you. They're trying to get inside you and figure out what it is you need to feel safe again. Are they blaming you for their choices? Are they reducing triggers? Some answers could be "you need more reassurance from me," or "you need me to stop being defensive when you ask questions," or "you need me to take ownership without bringing up problems in our relationship."

If your WS can't or won't answer these questions thoughtfully without blaming you or the relationship then you don't have much to work with. They should be learning your landscape of pain so that they know what's causing it, and be taking proactive steps to fix what they've broken instead of avoiding it.

If they can't answer these questions, or at least be working on how to answer them then you may be in for a really rough ride.

This is all according to Wes White, and he really does touch on alot of what we discuss here. His YT channel is "Wes White Counseling" and he has several videos on infidelity ranging from 5 to 15 minutes in length.

From the POV of cheaters:

1. What’s broken in you?

"I’m not broken. I’m perfect. You’re the one who fucked up, which is why I had to cheat."

ALT version:

"It’s all the fault of my grandmother’s sister’s uncle’s cousin’s room mate and I had no choice but to be this way. If you don’t understand that then you don’t love me!"

2. What are you going to do to fix it?

"Oh shut up and stop bothering me. It’s been 20 minutes. You should be over it by now."

ALT version:

"I’ll do ANYTHING you ask me to do…. Except for this. And that. And the other thing. Buying a book and never actually reading it still counts, right?"

3. What do I need that you’re not giving me?

"Wait, you have needs?"

ALT version:

"I give you everything and then some! If that’s not good enough then…. <sob sob sob>. <Pauses to see if you’re still looking, then sob sob sob>."

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:15 PM, Monday, April 13th]

Bluer, I think those are some excellent, and sometimes very accurate, examples of when you know you have nothing to work with at all.

I wish I could "lol" at your seemingly absurd examples, but I know you're not really exaggerating because that's really how some waywards will respond to those.

One thing I think is near-impossible is for the WS to do all that’s required right away…

Like I truly believe that to reach a stage where you acknowledge that the affair is totally 100% your fault and only due to decisions and actions that YOU took and made is something that takes immense moral maturity. Something most of us are barely capable of except with real serious contempltation and work.

Shared this so often here… but early on as a cop the old-timer who was showing me the ropes said "notice how no matter what we get them for, there will always be a reason or justification". So when I stopped someone for speeding they would only be following the flow of traffic, or have a doctors appointment, the guy who battered his wife would try to explain how he had no other option, based on her actions, the burglar would explain how since everyone should be insured he was doing the victim a favor in stealing his TV, the drunk driver would insist it was lack of sleep rather than those shots of Jack that made him slam into the wall…
I think the most outrageous one was the guy who drove into the corner of the food-truck. He was furious and insisted the truck had been moved from yesterday, because he had been having lunch there daily for weeks, always driven the same way and never before hit the corner. Definitely not his driving at fault…

I think that a WS fresh out of an affair is prone to explain or justify. I cheated because you were too busy or whatever. They then maybe go to I should have talked to you about our issues rather than had the affair. Eventually – and I think this is maybe a year later or so – it becomes "I decided to have an affair. Nobody made me do it. It was totally 100% my decision. I justified it with all sorts of personal and marital issues and reasoning. I could have stopped and/or prevented it but I didn’t. I have no excuse. I am working on becoming a better person so I do not do anything like this again. I am truly sorry for the pain I acknowledge I caused."

Bigger,

Yes, I should have included that. Almost no wayward will have thoughtful answers in the beginning. That type of introspection and self exploration typically takes time.

If they're not truly working on it and/or are still giving those superficial answers 6 months or a year down the road that's when you might have someone who isn't a safe candidate for reconciliation.

Bigger, I think the time it takes a WS who has the potential to reconcile to wake up and take accountability varies depending on how long their BS is willing to put up with their bullshit. If it takes a year, then that's probably when their BS reached their breaking point. This is why I never tell BS's to make excuses for their WS and wait for them to get it. A WS who is able to get it will get it, but only if sitting on their hands isn't an option.

These are too accurate.
1. Total lack of desire or effort for self reflection/introspection.
2. Forget and move on. No clear remorse or acknowledgement that they will change. You can't fix something when you don't acknowledge a problem.
3. It's trivial. You're overreacting. You need therapy, not me.

I got the answers listed in Pogre's examples:
1. "I've never dealt with my need for external validation, so when someone else showed me attention I couldn't resist,"
2. "I'm in IC" and "I'm being completely transparent with you."
3. "You need more reassurance from me."

BUT I also got the ALT versions that BluerThanBlue listed. The answers to the questions changed over time.

I remember reading somewhere about humility, and how few WS's have it. The ones here on SI who have really done the work have it - it shows in what they say and how they respond. True humility - letting go of the ego, not making excuses for one's behavior - is not easy. I think that's why it's so rare the R works.

@bigger

I think is all about confidence and self respect those are the traits that lead us into respecting the rules or someone’s else’s trust or boundaries.

I did bullshit while driving even if I never got a ticket (from a human cop, got from parking badly or velodrome). Still you are very aware of what you’re doing 99% of the time, and inventing an excuse right the instant you are allowing you to.

Younger me was justifying it my mind every time, the self respecting myself though it is pathetic because it boiled down to this most often:

my bad choices of party/ going sleep too late, having unnecessary fun rather than preparing, brought me right here in this moment, being late for school / work/ date, and they will think bad of me if I fail them

Again the Validation thing…

Consequences:
- try to recover the fuckup (speeding, burning red lights)
- inventing a believable excuse just in case failing still to making it up to them
- inventing an excuse for your current behavior if you get caught by the police or someone who would reprimand you (family friends)

Accepting consequences it’s hard when you know that you’re messing up for your own stupidity.

In what I call the middle moment of my growth I started to loathe the weak excuses, but still I was trying to make up "not to look bad". So I got stopped twice. Once a red light turning and once talking on the phone.

Both cases they asked me why (probably expecting an excuse), both times I give none. I seen the red light, I turned anyway - I was aware I was talking by the phone. No excuses , owning it.

A ticket is unwelcome but I did it because I thought I was reasonably safe, but I would not have to if I was smarter earlier. Lucky for me in both cases the police let me go with no ticket, maybe me being upfront and not lying them was a factor since the situation of the infraction was not dangerous.

Messing up is unavoidable, I still mess up today, I just accept the consequences, no more excuses or rushes for being late or missing a deadline. Own it.

The red line is to what level of fuckup you allow yourself to get and still feel comfortable to make up compensating/ coping behaviors, lies and excuses for it.

Would you be turning the red light if there is a risk of a crash just to hide your shame for a bad choice you made? Would you allow your self a choice so bad that the future crash is unavoidable?

- last thing is a funny one.
When I find myself running late on a desert red light I could turn if I wanted. Interesting that the memory of that one time is more relevant than the matter itself. "Nah I’ll just wait 2 mins for the green, not a big deal". Somehow my memory respects more that guy who respected my accountability back then without punishing it than the situation itself or my running late.

@pogre

Seems to check out, but will test it. I have a feeling where she’ll fail it

Wayward here… I think many waywards’ first (persistent) reaction is to justify themselves also (on top of many other reasons) because of plain ignorance on how to deal with these situations. And I refer to waywards that genuinely want to repair but don’t know how at first.

When it was all unrevealed, I didn’t even know what trickle truthing was or how bad it was (I have trickled truth all the way), I thought providing reasons / justifications was the way to go, I had no idea of "the work", "reconciliation", etc.

it was only when I kept seeing that I wasn’t going anywhere despite my efforts that I landed on this website which has literally given me a chance at future reconciliation.

I am not justifying poor or bad reactions, but sometimes one doesn’t even realise the depth of it all (including character’s flaws). In my case, I had to spend hours and hours on this platform to start understanding.

Thanks for posting the questions Pogre. I have been reading your posts and I found them incredibly helpful (and also gave me a little hope during tough days)

[This message edited by LonelyGuilty at 7:53 AM, Tuesday, April 14th]

Wayward here… I think many waywards’ first reaction is to justify themselves also (on top of many other reasons) because of plain ignorance on how to deal with these situations. And I refer to waywards that genuinely want to repair but don’t know how at first.

When it was all unrevealed, I didn’t even know what trickle truthing was or how bad it was (I have trickled truth all the way), I thought providing reasons / justifications was the way to go, I had no idea of "the work", "reconciliation", etc.

it was only when I kept seeing that I wasn’t going anywhere despite my efforts that I landed on this website which has literally given me a chance at future reconciliation.

Thanks for posting the questions Pogre. I have been reading your posts and I found them incredibly helpful (and also gave me a little hope during tough days)

Align somewhat with what I wrote just above.

Excuses are a tool to maintain the validation of being still a "good, responsible, reliable person " even when you know deep down that you messed up and you choose to mess up knowing the likely consequences already.

Is way more difficult to face yourself and your flaws than to excuse "I am not really like that, it was just an unfortunate chain of events, I would never do it otherwise ".

Truth is how I was back then I would totally stay at the party or fool around before the reasonable time and run late with an excuse.

Key is how much we crave and are desperate for the external validation. instant validation from the moment we make a bad choice, outside validation we need to maintain to just feel good about ourselves and keep our mask reputation intact.

That’s because we have a void inside that needs to be filled and our insecurities and issues make sure it is bottomless. So we can’t love and respect ourselves and we choose behavior that end up being a self fulfilling prophecy.

When you change you have enough respect for yourself that there is no fear of missing out, no void because you’re already making your life full, no need to excuse your today fuckups because you can own it, third party validation be damned.

Magically, also the mistake you allow yourself to indulge are of way lesser entity and you feel no need to hide them anymore.

You can probably see yourself what man you are today and what man you were back then.

By the way welcome @LonelyGuilty

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:11 AM, Tuesday, April 14th]

LonelyGuilty wrote:

Wayward here… I think many waywards’ first (persistent) reaction is to justify themselves also (on top of many other reasons) because of plain ignorance on how to deal with these situations. And I refer to waywards that genuinely want to repair but don’t know how at first.

When it was all unrevealed, I didn’t even know what trickle truthing was or how bad it was (I have trickled truth all the way), I thought providing reasons / justifications was the way to go, I had no idea of "the work", "reconciliation", etc.

it was only when I kept seeing that I wasn’t going anywhere despite my efforts that I landed on this website which has literally given me a chance at future reconciliation.

I am not justifying poor or bad reactions, but sometimes one doesn’t even realise the depth of it all (including character’s flaws). In my case, I had to spend hours and hours on this platform to start understanding.

Thanks for posting the questions Pogre. I have been reading your posts and I found them incredibly helpful (and also gave me a little hope during tough days)

I'm glad you found some of my posts helpful. That said, I also appreciate your perspective from the other side of the coin.

My wife was pretty far from perfect when I first discovered her affair. She ran the gamut from the cheater's handbook with trickle truth, lying-minimizing, blame shifting, and trying to convince me that they were "just friends" now. Her story was constantly evolving as I continued to uncover more details. It wasn't until I reached the end of my rope at about 4 weeks in and started consulting lawyers right in front of her that she really came clean.

She really gets it now, and once I felt like I had the truth, the whole story, and she started demonstrating true remorse, that I started to believe we might be able to rebuild. We've been married for over 27 years and her affair happened 26 years into it.

She watched the video I got these questions from with me. She pulled out a tablet and took notes. Then she took some time and answered those questions to the best of her ability. It meant a lot to me that she took it seriously.

Whatever you do, don't lay any blame on your husband for your choices, and make sure you haven't held anything back. The truth always has a way of coming out, and each new discovery is a fresh wound that will reset the clock on recovery. It's far better to rip the bandage off now and deal with the pain and fallout than to be in a false recovery for months, or even years, and a have new details emerge. That will do far more damage than the actual affair itself.

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[This message edited by Pogre at 1:16 PM, Tuesday, April 14th]

People tend to concentrate on the why instead of what caused them not to nope out well before lasting damage was done. People seldom fall into an affair rapidly. There's multiple branch points where they could have made safer choices for their family where they choose the darker path instead.

I usually phrase #1 as How could you do this to our family and Number 2 what steps are you taking to fix that to prevent it from happening again. I like the broke part as that reinforces that there is something unhealthy about the WS relationship ability that needs to be corrected. Digging at that is going to be more productive because there is never going to be a why that really makes sense. Its never the why so much as what didn't stop them from doing it.

I think that a WS fresh out of an affair is prone to explain or justify. <slash> It was totally 100% my decision

.
It takes a while to admit to even yourself that you are capable of treating your family that poorly.

My H can answer these now but there’s no way he could have answered all 3 on DD, not in the way I needed anyway.

Thanks @Backfromthestorm and @Pogre