SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I'm not sure exactly what my question is, so I'm happy to hear musings of all sorts.

I am about six years post-infidelity, reconciled, and I've done so much navel-gazing it might have negatively affected my posture.

(that's a joke)

The non-joke is that I've done an enormous amount of reflection, choosing to think and behave in ways that feel wrong even though I know they are right, committing to truth, tolerating uncomfortable emotions, taking others' perspectives, and the other things one has to do to climb out of the pit of infidelity. This has, of course, not only effected my relationship with my husband, but also every other relationship I have. In a good way. Some friendships have strengthened, others have withered, but all of my relationships are more intentional and true.

However

I still turn into a moody teenager around my mother. Not exactly a moody teenager - I am polite and I make small talk. I make sure to see her once a month and I'm very generous with money and whatever material thing she wants. I am sure never to say anything negative about her to my children, and I lean into saying positive things, so I don't disrupt their relationship. I basically keep complaints to my husband (who wants to help me with this) and my therapist. I genuinely want her to enjoy her life and have love and joy. I'm aware of the things that were hard for me growing up, and her role in them, and I understand some of the challenges that she faced in her life, and I practice forgiveness. A lot. I think forgiveness is something you do and re-do and re-do until your heart is settled. (side note, favorite resource, Tim Keller's Forgiveness book and sermons).

And yet

I really don't like being around her. I'm not relaxed. It would be impossible for her to not perceive it. I'm relaxed and friendly around my family and my friends (sometimes she sees me in group settings) but around her, especially one to one or with my brother, I become tense and cold and unfriendly, or perhaps it's more accurate to say someone who is trying not to act tense and cold and unfriendly. I turn into someone I wouldn't want to be around.

I don't think I'm just reacting to the past. She still sneaks in little public shamings from time to time. In the past couple of years - I was sitting with friends - not good friends, just a casual group whose daughters do an activity together - and the other moms were gossiping about a girl who was having a difficult time, drinking and sleeping around. I was alternating between not participating and saying things to divert. My mother said "she sounds a lot like you when you were that age" and I think the other moms were uncomfortable enough to finally change the subject. At a birthday brunch I was having we were talking about an upcoming trip to a foreign country, and she said "do you remember the time you were there and didn't have a place to stay and stayed with that older guy? What was that about?" Again my friends changed the subject. She doesn't bring these things up in private, and when she tries to talk about anything too personal, I have an auto-divert that takes over and the conversation is back on neutral ground without me consciously thinking about it.

I think she is not trustworthy with emotional topics. She doesn't do well in situations where there is pain. She is busy arranging that whatever is happening is not her fault and she's a good person. I've seen her do that to my own children, though I don't think it effects them terribly because they aren't particularly close to her and don't rely on her. But even if I avoid or divert emotional topics, I find myself irritated and not liking her almost all the time. I don't want to be like this but I'm not sure what to do. We spent last night together. She asked for World Series tickets. I took her and my brother and one of my kids. For a week beforehand I resolved to be pleasant. I imagined things we could talk about. But it was so uncomfortable, four hours of just sitting there wanting to be anywhere else (except for the part about being with my kid. That was great). I woke up feeling awful for not being able to behave better. I am just not sure what to do.

PS
Affected? Effected? I'm going to leave as is, some day I will figure that out.

[This message edited by Pippin at 5:36 PM, Tuesday, October 29th]

I could have written your post.

I am not sure I have any answer, I do what I can do and let myself off the hook for the rest. I actually think my mom’s generation, raised by the silent generation has fewer members of the self aware/emotionally mature club. I know that’s a generalization and maybe not even a little true.

But, it’s just how I think of it. It’s evolution, and as each generation grows I can see that my gen x self has had to learn a lot from my millennial and gen Z children. I think it takes a willingness to do so - to continue to evolve so that you are not doing the same to them. And my mom is just an example of someone who has failed to see the need to evolve. Well, I take that back, I think she certainly did better than her own mother, just like I did better than her, and my kids will do better than me.

But that doesn’t make me responsible for her feelings and caretaking. She did that to me for far too long. I have had to set boundaries to deal with her and for the most part she has no choice but to deal with it. I will celebrate her happiness with her or I will be sorry if she feels sad, but I no longer try to save her from being uncomfortable. If she send me texts of certain topics, she can expect no response from me. It’s mostly political stuff or her fear mongering. She asks personal questions about my kids, I say I don’t know because I do not ask, even if I know the answer.

I think O do the best to protect my energy while still allowing her to orbit in my life because a) she isn’t bad enough to cut off b) she would not see it as an opportunity to grow it would only put her deeper into a victim mentality.

I just remember that my kids owe me nothing. I owe her nothing. We have the relationship I can have with her, and I agree my kids just kind of think she is kind of looney and they don’t pay her a lot of mind.

I think the relationships where deeper connections were possible I have enjoyed and worked on. The ones I can only effect so much I have either mostly cut out (my sister- I speak to her cordially but rarely and usually only because family circumstances dictate it) or I have gone lower contact with or let them have insight into my life significantly less.

It sounds like you have done the same. I am way less avoidant but I think certain relationships I keep my detachment for my own sanity and my mom is number one on the list. I will always appreciate the things she did right with me growing up, I am open to having a deeper relationship with her in the future but I can’t change her. I can even have empathy for her and I understand a lot of it comes from her trauma and having to grow up way too soon. My mom has some great qualities that I aspire for, but she makes time with her so laborious that I can only do it in short bursts and still be pleasant.

Edited for one thought further: in my case I could never have a productive conversation with her about it. I have tried to conquer small things even and she acts like I am killing her. I asked her to not talk about my daughters pregnancy in fear the whole time. It’s a high risk pregnancy after having a still born last year. Everything she would say would be triggering. I would try and say “let’s not say that” or “let’s not think like that” and I got such a big emotional/victim reaction that you would have thought the situation was in reverse. I did not comfort her over it, which is a big change for me.

Anyway, it made me wonder if you had tried to talk with your mom? And I wanted to preface that by saying why I totally understand sometimes you can’t, it’s a lost cause.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:12 PM, Tuesday, October 29th]

I empathize and completely understand your experience Pippin, My mother is extremely narcissistic - my sisters and I used to joke 'it's all about her' but truly it is. I was well into middle age before I discovered the toxicity of her narcissism and the many ways she has and continues to impact those around her. Through IC I have been able to set healthy boundaries for myself (limited contact, minimal in person visits) that are much healthier for my peace of mind and health. I have discovered too (the hard way!) that she CANNOT be trusted so I no longer share any personal information. She has noticed the changes in me and does try to penetrate my defence shield but I have learned to see that coming too and deal with it.

You have recognized Pippin that you are 'a moody teenager' around your mother so you understand that she is pushing your buttons. Setting boundaries is not an easy task but it will be much healthier for you and in time your mother will accept the 'new' way of interacting with her. Understand too that narcissists will treat each child differently and play siblings off against each other and that your experiences with your mother will be different than those of your brother and any other siblings.

I hope this helps in some small measure Pippin and that you are able to find new ways to interact with your mother that are safer and healthier for you. Be well.

My mom was overly intrusive in my life, IMO. One of the first tests I put W2b through was interacting with my mom, because part of our M contract (an unwritten part) was that my W had be a buffer between me and my mom. For some reason, my W never liked that role.

It's really hard to be an adult in the presence of parents or children. Our son is over 50, but he's still our son, our child. We try not to interfere, but I don't know how well we do. Maybe we intrude too much, maybe not enough. It's really difficult to stay out of the parent and child roles.

What you describe seems pretty common - painful, but common.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:57 PM, Thursday, October 31st]

Thanks everyone, I am giving myself time to chew over this topic and I appreciate the input. I will take lots of long pondering walks with my dog and take breaks from thinking about it. I think the main issue is that once you start taking responsibility for your behavior, it feels really wrong when you are behaving in a way you don't want to, but can't see a path out of it. It's extremely confusing and discouraging. So I'm letting the emotions settle and listening to people I trust, who seem to all be saying: this is one of the hardest relationships, give yourself time and grace, it's not at all unusual to have difficult relationships with family, you are taking positive steps even if they are teeny tiny steps and you keep one hand on your defenses to retreat back into them. One thing is for sure: no more long periods of time with my mother and brother without my husband around.

Hang in there. As I read a response you made earlier today about how sometimes your whole operating system has the urge to lie- or hide things- it’s no mystery where that tendency comes from after being familiar with this post as well.

My operating system has different urges but the ones hardest sometimes to override are the ones that clearly came from my own relationship with my mom.

All that to say - I hope you are proud of yourself for being self aware of all these things and actively choosing differently. It’s hard as F sometimes to override your operating system. Good naming of it, it resonated. It may be a catch phrase for me now because it’s so illustrative.

Pippin, your mom sounds toxic, and she's trying to embarrass you around your friends. Would you let anyone else treat you that way?

That was the question I had to ask myself with toxic family members. "If this person were a friend, would I allow this behaviour?"

Every time the answer was no and I started setting boundaries, even so far as going completely NC with my NPD sister.

Hey Pippin, I am so sorry you can't be your true self around your mother. Unfortunately, I know how it feels, along with the pain of not talking about emotions and the snarky, demeaning comments in front of friends. It is a pain that cuts deep.

What I keep thinking, though, after reading your post, is why should you continue to do that to yourself? It is quite obvious that you feel very uncomfortable around her and you become irritated, almost feeling like a teenager who is not understood by their parent along with the rage that comes with that. That means you are dealing with a toxic person.

I cannot tell you what to do, but I can share with you my point of view coming from a similar experience. It all depends on whether you wish to maintain a relationship with your mom and what you expect from that relationship - how YOU would like it to be.

If you don't want to keep her in your life, things are pretty "simple". But if you do want to keep her in your life, I suggest you have a very uncomfortable, but open and honest conversation with her, telling her that what you want is to mend your relationship, not blame her for not being a good mother, but in order to do that she will have to be able to listen with an open heart about all the ways she has and is still hurting you. Because, no matter, how much you practice forgiveness, if she still keeps hurting you, you will always have a new wound and a new burden on your shoulders. And then it is entirely up to her to decide if she cares enough to fix things between you or if she chooses to keep to her old ways. Just, please, do not keep minimizing yourself, your feelings and your comfort for someone else to be comfortable, especially someone who doesn't respect you, no matter who it is.

I still haven't been able to fully confront my mother about the things she has done - and still does that hurt me - because she has several health problems and she has instilled in me from a young age that I am responsible for her bad mental/physical health, but I have made the beginning by telling her a few things about the past that cut deep and have presented it to her as a way to make our relationship more honest and healthy - and it's the truth. And you know what? If they can't handle the truth it should be their problem, not ours..

I wish you heal from your mother wounds and no matter what you choose to do, I wish it will bring you peace and authenticity.

Hi Mage and NoMudNoLotus, thank you for your responses. It's been a few weeks since this happened so I feel much better and am clearer about it. I think that there are levels of vulnerability in every relationship I have and I try to calibrate that wisely (and sometimes they need to be adjusted - a friend shows herself to be more trustworthy than I thought so I share more, or the reverse). My mother isn't trustworthy with emotions so I'm keeping her very far out in the vulnerability orbit. But we can hang out together, and talk about mundane things, as long as it's not my mother and my brother and me - I need other people as buffers.

I read something recently that is very helpful for this issue. Commentary by Ray Stedman:

Though this gracious effect is occurring in certain areas of the conscious life, it has not yet conquered all the areas. It is possible for a Christian to be in the Spirit one moment and in the flesh the next. For example, in your relations with Christian brothers and sisters you walk in the Spirit, but the moment you are involved with a member of your immediate family, you enter an area where the flesh is still unconquered and speech and attitudes are fleshly instead of Spirit-governed. From his vantage point in your human spirit, the Spirit of God exerts steady and unyielding pressure upon the area of family relationships, often precipitating several crises, until the will submits in that area and Jesus is enthroned as Lord there too. Thus another degree of likeness to Christ is achieved and another degree of glory manifested.

Since we can live only in one area of relationships of our life at any given moment, it is evident that we can be in a Spirit-controlled area one moment and in a flesh-dominated area the next. But how encouraging to know that the Spirit will never give up the battle!

The mistake I was making during this situation, that was so jarring to me, is that I assumed equal progress in all areas, so when I behaved in an immature/hurt way around my family, I assumed that meant I was actually in terrible shape as a human being in general. Reading this helped me to understand that I can be situationally healed. It was so encouraging!

I’ve also learned that when I’m working on something, to give it time and space and prayer and thoughtfulness and not try to rush to a conclusion or solution. This is a perfect example - sit with the feelings, identify that I’m ashamed of them, talk to others who can give helpful feedback/witness, continue praying, wait for guidance, don’t act without a peaceful heart.

My family is coming this weekend. I don’t expect any difficulty (I won’t be alone with them which seems to be the problem), but I am open to whatever happens. That is my prayer for the day - thanks and submission.

Hi Pippin,

What you describe is completely understandable. You are uncomfortable obviously because you hurt. You gave some good examples of her talking too much and not considering your heart. From a Christian perspective, Jesus tells us...if we have been offended, which those examples clearly represent...to go to them.

And the key is, you would have to find a way to approach her in love. What comes to my mind is something like this as an example...

"Mom, can I talk to you about something? (I assume she will say yes ...but it shows you are asking her...approaching her in meekness). Mom ...I really have been feeling like I want to be closer to you. I want to but my heart has a block of hurt. I sometimes get hurt when you say things to others that broadcast some of my past wrongs ..when they don't need to know about them since they were not against them. I want to feel like you care about my reputation and my heart"

Something like that. May she is amendable to a completely different approach ..you be the judge. But bottom line ...intimacy only grows by working through hurts. And that involves communication. Maybe you can be an influence to really help her grow. Maybe you can ask her how her relationship was with her mom. Does she wish it was any different?

Anyway, just some thoughts.

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 11:53 PM, Saturday, December 21st]

To be honest, I have a very different viewpoint when it comes to problematic relationships. In order for a relationship to work and be healthy, both parties have to put an approximately equal amount of effort into it. If one side is always doing the giving over a long period of time, it becomes unhealthy for the giver.

I had two very long term friendships go that way in the past few years. As I’ve gotten older, I found that I no longer have the desire or bandwidth to continue. As painful as it was (and still is TBH) I ended them both. Life is too short to carry the equivalent of an emotional vampire on your back.

JMO you need to consider what is best for you and your family and it may mean cutting your mom from your life.