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I have failed completely at this as a WS, and as a person, I defend, justify, argue and minimize always. There are even times where I try to make my actions not defensive and not say a word, but my thoughts are defending and justifying. All she has asked me to do is not Defend, Justify, minimize and argue, and for YEARS I have not figured out how to live and act that way.

How do I recondition my brain to not have to win or be right all the time, or to even just STFU and act with grace and service for her because I am the one who caused all this and I owe her to not be defensive and minimizing of her pain and needs.

How do you WS's out there do this and keep yourself from doing this and hurting your spouse further?

Are you specifically referring to like in conversations or arguments about the A?

One technique from my professional life that I found very helpful with my personal situation is the idea of "listen to understand, rather than listen to respond".

As a younger man and younger leader, I was known as a hothead because I would react emotionally to things said. I’ve learned to exercise patience through breath work. A technique I learned that helped me is stick your index finger about 6 inches in front of your face and pretend it’s a pretty flower you are smelling as you breathe in through your nose and then you pretend it is a birthday candle and you are blowing it out on the exhale. Usually a couple of deep breaths in this way helps you to reign in your emotional response and allows your rational brain to kick over. This doesn’t mean that there might not still be some strong emotions that you are feeling, but it allows you to put a temporary leash on them so that they do not control your actions and you ultimately say something you are going to regret.

What tends to bring out your defensiveness? Is there a pattern or any through lines for when you are defensive? It may be a topic worth exploring in therapy. Really digging in and trying to understand what could be the source of your defensiveness. It is possible that you had to justify yourself as a kid to feel loved and so this is a FOO issue where you felt that you had to fight for love and attention in your family, which makes defensiveness a conditioned and learned behavior, which is good news, because you can condition yourself to respond differently.

Thanks Bor. No it is literally everything that I get defensive about. I do practice meditation and centering exercises which do help some in the moment, however those practices have not helped me improve as a person.

I think my defensiveness is brought out by a sense of entitlement when I think something is unfair, incorrect or unjustly pointed my way. I have done so very much wrong in my life and am not a good person, and I am clinging to anything "good" that I can do and point to and be able to say to myself I can be better than I was a do decent things as I try to be better. So when I feel something is unfairly directed at me I defend, clinging desperately to what I thought was right actions by me and not another entry on the scroll. That is it...I desperately defend everything, big and small, if I feel it is wrong because I want to feel better about myself and have others see that too.

Part of the problem as I see it in this very thread is the self-talk you have is all wrong. You say that you aren’t a "good" person…first off why would you be so negative towards yourself, secondly, how do you define a "good" person (this will be insightful into your conditioning and upbringing) and third, assigning good and bad to people is a huge oversimplification. People are just people. We should not boil people down to the sum total of their perceived actions.

Our son has been diagnosed as neurodivergent quite recently and so I’ve listened to a couple of books and podcasts and one thing that does stick out is the perception of fairness and it was something we immediately identified in our son. He would call himself a bad kid for acting out and fighting us as parents all the time, but he would also lament to us how it’s not fair that he has to spend time on his weekends doing homework and projects while his peers don’t have to do it. I’m not in any way saying that you are neurodivergent or anything like that, but when you mentioned fairness, I think it is valid to really think back on your life and see if fairness or the perception of it has always been something that has gnawed at you.

You can also start to look at things differently in your life by assessing what are unfair criticisms of you. My wife had a resentment that I was an absent father for parts of your son’s youth, sure, I was defensive and felt it was a personal attack, but when I step back and look at what she is saying, she was really trying to communicate to me that I was at risk of losing my relationship with him and her as a result of my selfish actions. Human relationships and communication is not a perfect science. It’s messy and you have to try and look deeper than the words. This is something I’ve become very adept at in my professional life. Our largest customer came to us recently with a really strange request that is completely out of character for them. I lead my team in a discussion and what I pointed out to the team is what they are saying by this request. They are telling us that our lead times are shit and need improving, so rather than focusing on their rather absurd and legally specious request, let’s put our brainpower on fixing the lead times throughout our process. About a month later, I’m presenting to our customer a plan to cut out 14-16 days in our process and they sat there nodding in agreement and even offered us some additional information that part of their request was because of some issues on their end…it again comes back to listening to understand versus listening to respond. We are conditioned to respond from an early age, it is a real skill to listen to understand and important to ask clarifying questions.

Wantstorepair

Some years ago (well… closer to a decade) I decided that I wanted to become the best version of ME that I possibly could. I realized that being the best me wasn’t the popular me, the funny me, the rich me, the always helpful me. The best version of me is the man that I see in the mirror every morning and realize that I am content with what I see.
I think my quest began when I thought back to my uncle that had an old-style hanging scale in his garage. The cups were half-full of shotgun pellets and one day I saw where he stopped by the scales, paused for a few seconds and then placed a pellet into one bowl. I asked him what he was doing, and he told me that every day when he came home, he contemplated for a minute if he had been good or bad that day. His definition of good and bad was a combination of having been industrious, fair, kind, sharing… He then placed a pellet into the good or bad cup. I made a weak joke about how the cups were nearly equal – and he replied that he was a hard critic, and that being good was hard.

Basically – my plan can be simplified to these lines in the Lords Prayer (and can apply to anyone no matter religion or lack of…)
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

To me the key to the above was total honesty. I do not lie.
OK – I might lie about Christmas presents and such, but anything of significance I don’t lie.
That includes when asked to do stuff. My boss demands I finish a report by six – if I can’t I will tell him right away or the moment I know I can’t. My wife asks me to clean the bathroom I will do it or tell her when I can do it. Invited for golf on Saturday I will let my wife know rather than willy-welly all week for the "right" time to let her know.
Maybe more importantly and even harder: I do NOT lie to myself. I’m broke – I don’t blame the economy, inflation, Washington, my job… I look at my spending, my budgeting, my earning capacity… and try to reach a truthful reason for my situation. Drink too much.. no, not the stress, the kids or anything other than MY decision to drink. Don’t drive a new car like the neighbor – No – he didn’t cheat on his taxes or get the car from his dad, he isn’t luckier than me or whatever. Either I have other priorities or am not at the point where I can get a new Suburban.
Do this in all aspects of life. Told your wife you would be home before five when you left this morning? Be home before five. If you are running late let her know at the earliest, and a new arrival time. Even if she get’s angry because she has something planned. If you are trying to be "good" and "honest" whatever came up is important enough for you to adjust whatever you already promised and planned. Or not… Maybe you have to chose if you are going to be truthful to your wife and be home by five, or if you are going to prioritize the customer who wanted a short last-minute meeting. Who knows – maybe the best response might have been to offer him a phone-call during the commute, or an early-morning meeting, or checking with your wife if it’s fine if you are an hour late.

Hope these measly examples outline what I’m getting at.
Do this and you become truthful. The freedom this gives you is so immense. No longer juggling several balls or trying to find resolution where it isn’t – because the blame isn’t there.

One of the main reasons for being defensive tends to be because we are trying to keep something safe. It’s definitely worth it to keep some things safe, but if it’s something negative that is true… well… it’s better to get it out from your defenses and allow it to cope by itself. Like your entitlement – be honest and it lowers to a real and realistic level. Like you aren’t entitled to spend every Saturday playing golf because you have a family. But you are entitled to play golf within the limitations your obligations allow.

WTR I also struggled with this a lot late last year.

Two things I did helped me. One was a was watching every video that I could get a hold of and came across one that said stop apologizing in the middle of arguments. Take a deep breath and just be there for your BS. The minute I started apologizing the shame would flood and I couldn’t hold that space anymore. Instead I would acknowledge their pain in what was going on and then listen more or ask clarifying questions. That change really was the start of me being able to have an actual conversation on the affair.

The second was my therapist started working on my trauma ladder. I pretty much lived in the yellow zone of my feelings being on the cusp of overwhelming me so as soon as I felt anything I hit the red zone and shut down. First we worked on getting to green which it sounds like your meditation was helping with. Then we would work through uncomfortable conversations that didn’t immediately shut me down and worked on staying in green and yellow in those conversations. The more I talked about uncomfortable but not overwhelming things with my BH the easier it was to stay in the conversations that were really uncomfortable. I also started bringing up things about the affair when I felt like I could handle them. I finally understood he’s thinking about it all the time so it was never the wrong time to talk about it. Since I choose times I was doing ok the conversations went better

Bor,

I appreciate your response and insight, and personal examples. To answer your questions about the self talk; talk is the problem. I can "tell" myself that i am not that bad and that my actions through my life don't define me, but those aren't the facts. The facts are I cheated repeatedly for 30 years, am an entitled, abusive, narcissist and a liar. I cant think of a reality where those are "good" traits and actions. I have earned those titles through my actions and they are fact...how do you not carry that?

A good person I believe is kind and genuine, honorable and honest, reliable and caring for others more than themself.

How do you get from those one polarity to the other when the bad things I am will always be part of who i am and my story?

Our external relationships tend to mirror our relationship with ourselves.

I agree with Bor on the self talk. The key here is that you feel inherently shameful and therefore when people criticize you, then it triggers to
those feelings of worthlessness and it overwhelms you.

So the way to stop is to work on self compassion. It sounds backwards. But if you can learn to live with yourself, then you will not be afraid of your own truth.

Have you read Rising Strong by Brene Brown? She talks about how shame stands in the way of our connection.

I was a perfectionist because I felt worthless. So I would overwork myself to achieve an outer image that didn’t match my inner image. One day, like bigger, I decided the goal was to become more wholesome. When we do good, we feel good.

You are on a journey that won’t end until you decide to love yourself and be authentic with who you are. That means being a stand up person, and embrace that no one is ever perfect.

If you can become more comfortable with your flaws, and can see no one is perfect, give yourself grace and see that the other person communicating with you is doing that work because they care about you. They likely love you, and want the best for you. That means they are willing to risk hard conversations with you.

Which brings me to my next point. The reason you feel defensive is you can’t feel that love from them. Because you don’t live yourself you don’t relate to how someone can love you. Every single person on the planet who is in love with someone is in love with someone who is a mix of light and darkness, like the rest of the human race. You are light and darkness and it makes you no different than anyone else.

Focus on your light. The more of that you can let in the better you will feel- by doing your earnest best, by being generous and giving, and by giving yourself and others grace, by focusing on a gratitude practice, and by remodeling your self talk.

You are getting in your own way by only focusing on the external symptoms, like defensiveness. The more you focus on what you are doing wrong, the more of a spiral you are going to be in and it becomes this churn cycle of doing the same things and getting the same results. Stop feeding the dark. Feed your light. You are divinely loved, inherently valuable, and have your own beautiful things to offer to those around you. Cultivate that, and you will change the way you see your worth, and then you will stop feeling like people are on to "what a piece of shit you are." Because that’s not where they are coming from at all. They care about you and are trying to have an important conversation to improve their relationship with you.

It’s your lens that is broken, and what you focus on is what will expand.

I just heard this quote today and wanted to share it.

"The curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change." -Carl Rogers

When I think of defensiveness I think of a wounded animal that snaps at you if you get too close to it. Defensiveness is a shield of self protection…behind that shield, you must have some wounds you’ve endured that you’re trying to keep from getting touched again.

What is the internal dialogue you’re having with yourself when you’re experiencing defensiveness? Beneath the defending, the justifying, the minimizing and the arguing, if you look behind your shield, what are you feeling and saying to yourself?

Bumping by request of OP.

WTR,

I have been defensive for years, so many justifications, minimisations and denials that I cannot begin to count. I have a few techniques and comments to make that I use to try and reverse this behaviour. Some have been mentioned before by others, but I find it is always good to have more than one person confirm something that works. (Previously if one person said something I would find a reason why they were different to me and that their advice would not work for me. If multiple people say the same thing, then this justification becomes less real).

- Listen to what is being said. I used to hear words and immediately plan a response to counter the words I was hearing. I refused to listen...Listen to what was actually being said and not what I had assumed was being said. Do not plan a response until you BS has finished saying what they want to say. Then confirm understanding. Again, don't assume you understand. Either confirm you do understand or ask for clarification. I would hear key "trigger" words and then react. Not giving my BS a chance to continue or to clarify.

- Believe her reality. This is a difficult one. No matter what you think or know, your BS has an idea of what happened and why. Listening to and understanding where this reality comes from will help you in understanding your BS perspective. Getting argumentative if you believe she is wrong, will only fuel her anger and belief iin her reality. This is certainly true in my case. Until I began to listen and understand my BS I would immediately get defensive, even if I knew I was right. As WSs, we lie. I lied a lot and got defensive defending these lies. The moment defensive behaviour is used, this triggered my BS and would immediately throw distrust into the conversation, and we would spiral. I got triggered by the mistrust (see guilt above) and we would cycle. Listening to what BS thought is imperative to stopping the immediate defensive response.

- I practice FACT or OPINION on myself. Takes practice and a moments pause before responding, but when you have a response, as yourself if this is fact or opinion (or of course a lie, minimisation or justification) if you detect that it might not be fact, then your BS certainly will. Take time in responding, if you need more than a few second, then say so. Be honest and say "I was just about to respond to that, but feel my response was defensive. I would like a moment to review this". Try to avoid saying "I'll come back to you tomorrow" as this is likely to be avoidance or seen as such.

- Listen and repeat back. I've said it above, but it is important

- Use STOPP. Google it, but simply it is (Stop, Take a breath, Observe, Pull back and Practice what works) a technique I try to use in all areas of life. Someone pisses you off at work...STOPP, The guy that just cut you up....STOPP, responding to a triggering question from BS STOPP.

- Understand your triggers. You may need help from IC, but try to understand what pisses you off. Shame is a big one, questions on something you're still lying about, having to dig onto past shitty choices, feeling like your positive changes are being ignored and your BS is only focussing on the negative...The list could be long. Acknowledging they exist and then trying to understand them (FACT or OPINION may help) may aid in not being triggered and may lead to less defensive reactions.

For me, these only worked when I made the choice to use them. I knew a lot about what I needed to do but this was all useless until I made the choice to start actually making changes. I'm still in early days of this. Triggers are quite regular and VERY conscious pauses and STOPPs are needed to help my reactive responses. Recognising you get defensive is a good step, now breath, pause, question yourself and Listen. These have helped me and I will need to continue to use them before I can even consider myself a better and less reactive person.

Let's take a look at your salvation plan (how you feel like a worthwhile person).

I behave well - my wife gives me validation for my progress and effort - I am worthwhile.

Whoa! No wonder you are defensive. When you make an effort to be a better person, and your wife doesn't see and validate your effort, you are worthless (and maybe kind of angry and resentful that she isn't playing her role in your plan very well). That plan doesn't even look good on paper. And you've had many (13?) years of it not working very well in practice.

You are not alone in having an ineffective salvation plan. We humans are salvation-plan-manufacturing machines and unfortunately we are really bad at it. We think if we do great at our jobs we are worthwhile. If we do well at the gym. If we are especially good pet owners. If that one person loves us. If we are good girls who don't make anyone angry. If we follow all the rules of a certain religion or practice. In the end, these all come to rubbish and we feel worthless (and hopeless). It's very good to be aware of your own salvation plan and be intentional about having a sturdy one. Your current plan is not sturdy and also not good for your wife or your marriage, though no doubt you often behave better than you used to. But under stress, when it really matters that you set aside your dependence on her good opinion to feel worthwhile and are available to listen to her, it doesn't work. As you know.

One tricky problem with these salvation plans that we cook up for ourselves is that the SEEM to work. We seek our worth in our work - we get a promotion - we feel awesome! We find worth in the gym - we are able to do more or lift more than before - amazing! We feel on top of the world. What happens when we are not doing well at work? Do we feel dejected? Or do we start cutting corners to make it seem like we are doing well? What happens when we get injured and can't keep posting better and better numbers at the gym? It would be so much easier if these plans never worked. We would drop them quickly. But this intermittent cycle of it works - I feel great - it doesn't work - I am angry or defensive or depressed - that's tough.

Oh boy do I have good news for you!

First, before we get to the good news, let's look at another common salvation plan that doesn't work.

I believe in (insert deity of choice) – therefore I obey – therefore I am saved.

(Saved meaning that you understand that deity delights in you, treasures you, created you with care and attention, loves you so much he would do anything to have you and keep you.)

Why doesn't this work? We don't obey very well. We might obey sometimes, most of the time, in some settings, many settings, but basically at some point we will come to a time and place where we don't obey. We get defensive. I didn't really disobey. There are understandable reasons I disobeyed. I mostly obey so this disobedience doesn't count. It's your fault I disobeyed. Etc. Or we feel like garbage, and give up, stop trying, hopeless.

Let's look at a sturdy salvation plan.

Gospel is: I believe in Jesus – therefore I am saved – therefore I obey.

Do you see the difference? Under the first (religious approach), when you don’t obey, you are toast. Your sense of worth is crushed. With gospel, when you disobey, your salvation (sense of worth) is not in question. You are STILL precious, a treasure, the delight of God's eye, despite your disobedience. You don't have to be defensive about anything because you have nothing to defend - you didn't lose your worth. Sometimes you lose your sense of worth in the moment, you might be ashamed in front of other people, you might be disoriented that you're not doing as well as you thought, but your wise mind can remind yourself that you did not lose your worth in God's eyes, and re-orient yourself with the idea of yeah! God is revealing in me a way I can get to know him better, and Jesus has trod this path through death to life so I can face this problem I have with confidence there is life on the other side of it. The disobedience becomes a clue that there is a place in your life where you don’t fully understand, where you might need healing or strengthening, and it gives you the opportunity to meditate, pray, face the problem and face your shame with a benevolent/loving witness and guide (Holy Spirit), and obey more fully from the joy in your heart, from having his instructions written on your heart. Maybe it doesn’t always look so different on the outside. It's different.

*****

Wantstorepair, am I correct in remembering that you were in active combat and suffered multiple concussions to the point of blacking out? If that was you, I assume that you know about CTE? Please give yourself enormous grace. Having a mis-firing, injured brain is not an excuse for disobedience. Nothing is an excuse for disobedience. But you have a headwind that many people do not experience. Giving yourself grace looks like this: when you are feeling rage, or victimization, or helplessness, try to hear a benevolent voice saying kindly to you: Wantstorepair, your brain is misfiring right now. You need to soothe it and help it to calm down before you can do anything for another person. And when you are in calmer times, try to practice things that you can draw on in a crisis - meditation, prayer, memorize poetry, remember the good things God has done in your life or moments you have experienced love.

[This message edited by Pippin at 2:33 PM, Thursday, September 5th]

Book suggestion that helped me change the way I view everything: "the power of now" by Eckhardt Tolle. I am rereading it right now. I truly think of you read nd practice the things in his book, it will help you start to identify the ways you are believing unhelpful narratives (and therefore impacting your emotional world).

It’s a dense book for thought, it takes a long time. I didn’t read the whole thread but I saw some spiritual mentions mixed in. You are devinely loved the way you are. You are inherently worthy. You just have to move your way of thinking towards love rather than fear. You let fear rule you.

On a side note - Pippen- it’s been a long time since I saw your name. Glad to see you re reconciled and I hope you are doing well.

Pippen- it’s been a long time since I saw your name.

That's not my name

Nice to see you too

Touché! Still a Firecracker.

I love the opportunities to have fun. They are precious. TY for joining me. And - look at this thread which is almost the last one I did several years ago, in which I scold both MrCleanSlate and BSR for misspelling my name. You are in excellent company.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/649141/has-anyone-else-had-this-experience/

You also provided an in-the-moment example of how to not be defensive. You could have protested - it was a typo! Who cares? You know what I meant. Etc. Instead? Light hearted fun moment. Brilliant non-defensive meta-posting. Well done.

(searching for firecracker emoji)

Bulcy, Thank you for those tips and techniques. I will try these and incorporate them into my thinking and to not be so defensive. I keep wrestling with the defensiveness I feel because in truth I have nothing to defend...literally nothing, yet I still feel that way sometimes and when I get defensive it automatically triggers her and hurts her more.

Hikingout, I have started "Rising Strong" and I am trying to make sense of it for me and apply it. Thank you for recommending it. I am certainly struggling with feeling shame and it getting in the way, and accepting myself and not feeling shame - but then I become complacent and ignore the reality that she is always hurt because of me...enter shame. I need to break this spiral. I will try the "power of now" also, thank you.

Pippen, thank you so much for that reply. You are 100% spot on about my salvation plan...It is her and her acceptance of me. I see now that by putting the burden of my salvation her as the victim, I am hurting more and denying her any room to heal because I always am making it about me. She called me a Dictim yesterday - a person how acts like a dick then whines because they are the victim. yeah. I am not a very religious person, but I understand the principle and what you are saying about my salvation, I think. yet I am struggling with how to come up with a sturdy salvation plan without Jesus. I have always craved acceptance, and sought what made me feel good and attributed that good feeling and the actions that caused the feeling as ok. Totally wrong, destructive, self-serving and cruel. It is how I allowed myself to cheat and lie and use in the first place. I still find myself seeking that good feeling, and certainly look for that good feeling to come as a reaction from her. Seeking good feeling, acceptance and adoration has made me the asshole I am today and I am struggling to change it. It seemed that focusing on my bad actions and self was a way to not feel good because I don't deserve to feel good, but that just makes it all about me too.

Maybe I shouldn't be seeking salvation at all, since that is still making everything about me?

Yes I am a combat vet with multiple TBIs and anger management issues, vestibular problems, focusing problems, and processing issues. Thank you for remembering that. However the cold truth is I was an asshole before those happened and they certainly are not reason I chose to cheat and lie and hurt. I feel like giving myself grace for those disadvantages now minimize who and what I am and my actions. You are correct though that I need to recognize when my brain is misfiring and take immediate action to not make choices and actions that hurt her more.

[This message edited by wantstorepair at 7:07 PM, Wednesday, September 11th]

The deep breathing really does clear out some of the chemicals driving your fight flight response. The issue is it may not be active enough. So, I would add this technique:

When someone gives you feedback that triggers your fight response, say this "thank you for sharing. Can you tell me a bit more?"

Two things are there, a thank you for the feedback and inquiry. Both are important.

This technique 1) allows you to take those breaths 2) shows you appreciate the input that has been shared 3) encourages more future input 4) allows you to learn more that may help truly reduce your defensiveness and 5) is easier to train yourself to do then just the breathing.

Write the technique out somewhere and look at it every morning for a month. This will help you use it a few times proactively. When you fail and realize it, go back to the person, apologize and then use it to recover.

Thank you Trdd, I will try this.